Its Finally Here: Engineer's Diagram - Your Thoughts? Pump Selection?

[jblizzle]

Or a single (large-ish) 2-speed pump and use valving to adjust your flow. Run on low speed most of the time for circulation and filtration and bump it up to high for running deck jets and bench.

Although if you size the pump to be around 90GPM on high, it would still be 45GPM on low so likely could run the circulation and deck jets on low and just be on high to add the bench jets.

Any automation will control a 2-speed pump and low risk of lightning issues.

 

[SunnyOptimism]

Yeah, I just realized there isn't such a thing as a 2HP Variable. Frustrating: The pool is extremely small (only 10K gallons), and the only reason I may need to go to such a high end pump is to allow for all water-features to run at once with the option to automate? The other route would be 2 pumps - but I see no benefit there as the added plumbing and added pump cost about the same as a variable alternative.

Yeah, I had room in the budget so I just decided to make life easy and go with two pumps, one for the pool/spa and one for the waterfall. Simplified the automation.

One thing to keep in mind is that you want to give yourself some margin on the pump speed. As your filter pressure increases due to loading, your water flow rate will decrease. I always know when my DE filter is approaching a backwash because I can see my suction side cleaner slow and my spillway is a little less dramatic. So you don't want to be right on the margin of the flow you need.

Did you look at the Pentair IntelliFlo VS (3HP would be in your flow range)?

 

[ssml11]

I like that...only thing you left me thinking about was the automation. I'd would like to be able to "press" one button and have the following take place: deck jets: on, spa jets: on, circulation: off. And then press another button when the fun is over and leave: deck jets: off. spa jets: off, circulation: on (low). Can this be done with valves?

 

[gwegan]

I think a 1.5hp should be sufficient. You are not going to run the return lines at the same time you are going to run the jets. I would get one that works with automation.

Skip the additional booster pump for the cleaner, ether go with a cleaner that runs w/o a booster pump or go with a robot. If you don't have a big foliage problem -- then a robot.

You want automation here. If you have a wife and children you want automation. If you want LED lights you want automation. With the lights no automation means switching the light on and off to get to the correct color. Liked the color two back ---- sorry got to go through all 20 colors again. Light is correctly placed. You might want to place a small light in the spa. Pentair Globrite for example.

Loop the returns its cheap and you do get better circulation.

 

[SunnyOptimism]

I like that...only thing you left me thinking about was the automation. I'd would like to be able to "press" one button and have the following take place: deck jets: on, spa jets: on, circulation: off. And then press another button when the fun is over and leave: deck jets: off. spa jets: off, circulation: on (low). Can this be done with valves?

I have a complete Pentair package, IntelliTouch panel with EasyTouch remote system. Lights, Valves and pumps are all automated and can be put on multiple schedules and/or egg timers with 8 buttons to control different features. Salt cell is also fully tied into the automation. I can control everything from my kitchen. Some folks go super fancy with the Bluetooth iPad automation but I'm perfectly happy with the EasyTouch remote (no chance of the kids messing with it!)

It's pricey though and will definitely hit your bottom line....

 

[RobbieH]

Regarding lighting, I have the Pentair Intellibrite LED, and it's great.

Any reason for having two main drains?

 

[jblizzle]

I think a 1.5hp should be sufficient. You are not going to run the return lines at the same time you are going to run the jets. I would get one that works with automation.

I disagree with this general statement. A 1.5HP SuperPump (or Superflo) is significantly smaller than a 1.5HP Super II (or Whisperflo)

Any reason for having two main drains?

I would assume because it is required by code.

 

[SunnyOptimism]

Any particular reason to not tie the main drains to the skimmer and simplify the plumbing a bit?

 

[jblizzle]

You get better control and lower head loss by having them home run to the equipment pad. I wish mine was that way.

 

[RobbieH]

I disagree with this general statement. A 1.5HP SuperPump (or Superflo) is significantly smaller than a 1.5HP Super II (or Whisperflo)


I would assume because it is required by code.

Interesting. Two mains required by code. Heck around here they are building a bunch with no main drains.

 

[jblizzle]

Yeah ... either 0 drains or 2 drains or a single drain that is over 30" in a single dimension (or something like that) ... this is to eliminate possibility of entrapment.

 

[mas985]

I think what JB was talking about was the VGBA compliance. When there is a main drain, it must be a split main drain with compliant covers. However, you can always choose to not have a MD.

 

[ssml11]

Thanks for replies! Yeah, here in Dade county if you want a drain you must have it split into two. It's really one drain line with a T splitting it. They also require an air exhaust pipe to go from main drain to yard to avoid possibility of someone getting stuck (I am quoting engineer here).

Regarding lights, I will surely go with a color changing LED. Only one light should do it as patio is very well lit as well.

Now the pump - I finally decided and approved for the engineer to submit plans with a Hayward Ecostar. I know that for a 10k pool that is overkill, but I rather be save than sorry and truly $350 savings when compared to a 2 speed 2hp is nothing in the big scope of things.

I also request for the return pipes to be looped (thank you!).

Still debating wether or not to go with a booster cleaning or not - I surely would brake even going with the ecostar if I can save $300 on a booster pump. Again, still debating this topic so feel free to comment further.

Automation - this is the million dollar question. I chose ecostar too because it can be easily automated with all of my other hayward equipments. However, I really can't throw $1k plus on automation right now. Any ideas on a temporary fix (under $350) to automate lights and turn valves of water fountain and spa jets on and off?

The engineer will submit the final plans on Friday. I will share the latest one here for your reference.

 

[jblizzle]

There is no real automation to do what you are asking for that price. You also do not need to spend $1k ... for around $5-600 you can get a ProLogic (without the SWG cell, but you could add it later) that would integrate to the pump and give you light and actuator control. You will need to buy actuators as well at $75+ each

I would certainly skip the booster and either get the non-boosted pressure cleaner or a suction cleaner (you could run either on the cleaner line depending on your plumbing) or robot. Some notes though:
- with the Boosted, you could leave the EcoStar on low speed and run the cleaner
- with the non-booster, you would have to increase the EcoStar speed (but still may cost less to run than the Eco on low + the booster) ... same with the suction cleaner you may need a higher speed (although some, like The Pool Cleaner, work at pretty low flow rates).
- robot can be run any time with or without the pump running.

 

[ssml11]

I can have salt cell separate at least for the time being. I think I can convince wife to pull another $500 for Prologic. Let me read about it and it works together with my hayward stuff. For actuators I would only need two right? One for deck jets and one for spa return. I can control pump flow automation directly from the pump right?

And I'm sold - I'm cutting the booster pump

 

[jblizzle]

The ProLogic will control the pump speed and on/off times.
You will want at least the PS4 system as there are limitations on the cheaper P4 that could cause problems (like it may not control the lights (I am not 100% sure on this) and 2 of the valve actuators are slaved together which would actually be fine in your case).

You would not need the AquaRite SWG (if that was your plan) if you get the ProLogic, you would just need a cell and the control is in the Prologic. So actually, the Prologic may only be a $2-300 upgrade from what you have planned.

 

[ssml11]

I would not need a saltwater swg - only the cell? What? Now you lost me. That would be the bomb...but...really? I wouldn't need the blue hayward box to control the flow? Only the filter that goes through the pipe??? If that's the can then I have $800 to spend on automation.

 

[jblizzle]

I think you got too excited, because I really do not understand what you just wrote.

The Hayward SWG systems are made up of 3 parts. The control/power box, the flow sensor, and the actual cell that generates the chlorine. This system is probably around $1000.

The ProLogic has the control/power for the SWG built into it. So you would just need to buy the cell ($500) and the install kit (flow sensor and unions) ($150). So that would be $350 less than the stand alone SWG system that could go toward the ProLogic purchase.

Kind of guessing at prices here a little bit,

 

[mas985]

I don't want to derail things at this point but I have a few concerns about your design.

1) 1 1/2" return line seems a bit small to me. You can avoid the loop with 2" pipe as it has about the same effect. Also, that will help with efficiency for a VS pump.

2) You shouldn't need a blower for the air pipe if it is designed properly. Again, 2" is much too small. If he used 2 1/2" and kept the fittings to a minimum, there should be no need for blower. If it is a very long run, then 3" pipe would help. Also, make sure he puts in a Hartford loop in the air pipe close to the jets to prevent water from back filling the air line.

3) I would put 2 1/2" pipe on the skimmer too. You really want higher flow rates for the skimmer and that will help.

 

[ssml11]

I don't want to derail things at this point but I have a few concerns about your design.

1) 1 1/2" return line seems a bit small to me. You can avoid the loop with 2" pipe as it has about the same effect. Also, that will help with efficiency for a VS pump.

2) You shouldn't need a blower for the air pipe if it is designed properly. Again, 2" is much too small. If he used 2 1/2" and kept the fittings to a minimum, there should be no need for blower. If it is a very long run, then 3" pipe would help. Also, make sure he puts in a Hartford loop in the air pipe close to the jets to prevent water from back filling the air line.

3) I would put 2 1/2" pipe on the skimmer too. You really want higher flow rates for the skimmer and that will help.

1) I just sent an email to the engineer and inquired about making the return lines 2" instead of 1.5"...no idea why he went with 1.5" to start with. Thanks for pointing that out.

2) I don't understand how you are going to create bubbles without a blower (or at least with one of those venturies with deck opening). I mean, air has to come form somewhere to create the water flow with bubbles effect, right? Doesn't the pump supply just pressure, not air?

3) Skimmer 2.5" pipes? I will bring that up too, although Ive been seeing most people use 2" and some even 1.5". Remember my set-up is only 10K gallons.