Feeling a shock when touching ground

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Hi Ohm boy,

I finally talked to my best friends husband (electrician) and he said the same thing. What I failed to realize/mention was that there is a transformer box at the back of my yard about 50 ft or less from the shallow end of my pool. He said that that Ruhr there could be the problem if any of those underground wires (that is all we have in our neighborhood) are compromised in any way, maybe a rodent chewing them or something.

I just got off the phone with the power company and they are coming out as soon as they can get here (hopefully today). But that if they feel it is unsafe in any way they will shut off electricity to all pool equipment. Hopefully they will be able to find something so I don't end up with a pond or be out there paddling bleach. I just put it on shock cycle just in case. I will update as soon as I can, if they don't find anything I have an electrician coming out tomorrow afternoon.
 
Well, the power company came out and didn't find anything, he did take his meter to my pool and handrail and it was wavering back and forth from 0 to 1 volt. He left saying that if the electrician that was coming out today didn't find anyting to call them back.

The electrician that came out today put in an 8' or longer ground rod saying by all accounts that it should divert any energy into the ground (not sure if I am saying that right) and keep it away from the pool. We got a lot of rain yesterday from that tropical storm and I had noticed a couple days ago that the breaker on my boost pump had tripped so first thing this morning I tried turning it on and it tripped the GFCI. Of course when he was here it must have dried out enough so that it wouldn't trip again. But he wasn't sure the booster pump alone need a 30amp GFCI. Anyone know what the booster pump is supposed to be on?

Bottom line, I tested it again and we're still getting the tingling. I know all of us can't be crazy. I am mooing to call the power company back later this evening or tomorrow to see what they can do next.

If I failed to mention this on Saturday the whole neighborhood lost power and we still felt it. Where should I go from here. The only other thing I can think of is when they put the new liner in they didn't bond it properly, is that possible? My contractor is in the hospital so I'm at a loss here.

Any & all input is welcomed. I am hoping i wont have to cancel my daughters birthday pool party on Saturday but it isn't looking too good. Also in aimee's thread someone suggested putting #8 around the hand rail and the other end in the water and yup, we still feel it.
 
Deb,

All I can say is I don't think your crazy at all. I know what you are going through and I wish I had resolution as well. We are faced with a lot of finger pointing on our end. Power company in our case admitted to the stray voltage but doesn't really care. I understand now from what ive learned here that bonding the pool to the cement properly wouldn't eliminate the stray voltage but would prevent us from feeling it. I've confirmed with a second pool builder that they do not put rebar under cement on a vinyl lined pool. This tells me county code is what is not up to par.

I hope you can be persistant and get answers. I'd lean on the power company. Especially since you said you still felt it when the power was out.....from my niave knowledge of this I'd say that indicates a stray voltage issue.

Good luck.
 
Well the power company just left. That was a waste of time. He got on his radio and the guy on the other end said "man we're good on our end" with no offer of checking anything. He just said I know there are other people that have had this problem, enough to feel it but its not much in terms of voltage. But he didn't know how or if any of them resolved it.

Tomorrow I am again going to cut the whole house power and test it. If it reads (and I bet it will) I am going to call and ask for a supervisor. I have a transformer back there but they seem to say it's impossible it could be coming from there. I'll see what they say but I guess the next step might be to find a Reputable PB that has experience in troubleshooting.

Aimee, I wish you weren't going through this too. It is extremely frustrating to say the least. I am probably canceling my daughters birthday party because the power company can't even tell me if it's dangerous or not and I don't think I have any chance of resolving it by then.
 
James, thank you for the reference. I am trying to find that right person to help me.

As it stands now I have the power company and the cable company coming out tomorrow morning so they can both check for stray voltage in their boxes. The power company was again adamant on the phone that it is not their equipment, so I told them I have had professionals out on my end and they at least should do their part to be certain their transformer is grounded because if someone were to be hurt in my pool they would be held liable. I'm not sure who or what I'll get but here's hoping something happens to fix it.
 
If this condition existed during a total power outage in your neighborhood, then that seems to eliminate both your house & equipment and the power companies lines and transformers.

Are there any High Voltage lines anywhere close by?

These are the lines where they are high up on those big towers, and they usually always keep a very wide easement cleanly cut.

Another thing you might consider is calling 1-800-Dig-Rite or whatever it is called in your area, and have ALL the different companies that might have underground utilities buried on your property or adjoining properties, if you can be home when each one comes out to locate their lines or pipes, then write down the color of paint they used and who the company is they are marking for, (sometimes one company will contract to locate for several different companies), if you are not able to be present then ask when you call if the people marking the lines can leave you the information.

If you find out where ALL utilities are running on or close to your property then you stand a better chance of finding the source of the stray voltage, since it was present during a power outage it very well could be from the phone company, (you would be amazed at the DC voltage and current running thru phone cables, and how often they have breaks in the lines), cable company, even the water company, or any other metal pipes buried close by.

The best thing to tell them for marking utilities around your entire property line is that you are going to have a fence installed and need to know where ALL underground utilities are located around your entire property, (including under sidewalks and driveways).

It seems to me an engineer with the power company would be able and willing to come to your house and locate the source of this stray voltage, even if it is not originating from their equipment.

BTW it is a well proven fact underground power lines do leak voltage to earth ground. But again I suggest that if this exists during a power outage then that would eliminate the power lines, at least in your neighborhood, (phone and cable lines could easily get their power from a different grid that would be under power when your neighborhood is not, same thing with transient voltage following a metal water line for instance).

I just noticed your user name, do you live on a military base or very close to one?

I hope you get this resolved quickly.
 
You do not need to be around when the lines are marked to know which lines apply to which company. The colors used are standardized. Red is electric, blue is water, yellow is natural gas, orange is telephone/cable.
 

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Well the power company come out this morning. All of their equipment they say is fine. The cable company never showed. They sent the foreman and he was nice enough to even check our wiring at the pool, which he said was wrong and to have it completely redone. He isn't sure that will silve the problem but he did show me that the installer hooked up the hot wire right to the neutral and the ground wire had come off in the terminal on the timer box. The pool company is supposed to come back out tomorrow morning and rewire it but I'm not so sure I have any trust there.

Bottom line, if that doesnt fix it the power co suggested we put in a bonding grid around the pool in addition to what's there (I am having town hall go in the archives to get the plans,it was built in 2002). This wil hopefully shed some light on what is and isn't there for bonding to take out the guesswork on that part. The power company said they had a customer the next town over who solved their problem with the second grid around the pool, so maybe it would work.

I have the utilities being marked first part of next week in case we need it.

Anyone experienced with bonding have any feedack?
Thank you everyone for you input.
 
"An additional bonding grid would probably help"

How would you go about adding that?



Also, Something I just noticed... from an earlier post by NavyWife.
"On that note I took a chisel and hammered away at the concrete where the mounts were and there is rebar sticking up in each of the 4 holes, anything you can make out of that?"

Sounds like the deck may not have been properly bonded right... but if you have access to rebar in the concrete, ideally it is tied in properly to the rest of the deck rebar assuming there is more rebar in the concrete.

Try this as an experiment: make a jumper to test with...
take a wire and wrap it around the bond wire that is attached to your pump.
Make sure it has good contact, so wrap it around a few times.
Then, run that wire out to the rebar at the diving board.
Don't connect it to the rebar - just get it close to it.
Then, take your volt meter, switch it to ohm's(assuming it has that capability, which even my cheapo meter from wally world has) and touch 1 lead to the rebar and the other lead to the wire you just ran out there.
Do you get continuity? If so, then you know that the rebar is connected to your bond wire somewhere and you need to try bonding the water.
If not, then you know most likely the deck is not bonded. You could then try connecting that jumper wire to a piece or two of the rebar and see if you feel the "sting". If you do feel it when the jumper is not on the rebar and don't feel it when it is I would then run a proper #6 or #8 bonding wire to that.
In addition, once you have the jumper connected to the rebar, create another "jumper" and wrap it around the first jumper, coil it up and put it in the pool as a test of bonding the water.
Get a shock still? You may or may not, just something to try...

I'd be interested to hear your results from the test?
 
In a nutshell putting a circle of ground rods around the pool tied together with #8 and the rods spaced no more than 8 ft apart, then tied back in to the pump.

Hopefully though, fixing the wiring will do the trick. Which I hope can be done today because my water temp is 90 and we had a storm last night, and I'm sure my chlorine level is coming down quickly in this heat. I'm hoping to avoid a swamp, and honestly I'd give anything for a worry free swim at this point.

If that doesn't work I will perhaps try that experiment.I have nothing to lose at this point.

Town hall only had the permits and size info, no detailed building plans. They did give me the name of the PB but it appears they recently went out of business as they are listed but their number has been disconnected. I was hoping to get my hands on those plans, doesn't sound like that will ever happen.
 
I have a just a little more information to add. I am still waiting for the pool guy to show up but.. I was talking to my neighbor across the street and was telling him about it because he has a chlorine IG pool in his back yard and was curious. We tested his pool and nothing, yet his friend, 4 houses down from me on the same side has a salt IGP in his back yard that tested half of what I am getting in my pool so maybe a half a volt or so, but still he is getting some voltage is his pool as well.

Sincerely,
Frustrated..
 
Navywife said:
I have a just a little more information to add. I am still waiting for the pool guy to show up but.. I was talking to my neighbor across the street and was telling him about it because he has a chlorine IG pool in his back yard and was curious. We tested his pool and nothing, yet his friend, 4 houses down from me on the same side has a salt IGP in his back yard that tested half of what I am getting in my pool so maybe a half a volt or so, but still he is getting some voltage is his pool as well.

Sincerely,
Frustrated..
Click to expand...


That is because salt water is conductive. Ultra pure water has a very low conductivity. The minerals and dissolved solids are what conduct the current you are feeling/measuring.

I just went through this with our pool. It is a 20 year old Buster Crabbe that was converted to SW when we bought the house in 2007. We just had a new liner installed and updated to a beaded liner. There has always been a slight shock like you are describing since we have been here, everything checks fine, just stray current in a pool that was built when bonding was not required.

When I refilled the pool after the liner was replaced, no current was detectable or felt. As soon as I started adding salt, I started feeling the current. The higher the salinity, the higher the detectable current. I keep my salinity between 3200 and 3400ppm, and can feel the shock much better than with it at 2800. Maybe your neighbor's SW pool has a lower salinity and that is why it is measuring a lower voltage.

I measured mine using a fluke true RMS meter, with one probe in the bottom of the pool, the other connected to various objects like the fence, cover anchors, and hand rail and got close to the same readings @ 3400ppm. With the power to the main house and pool house on, I measured 1.6--V AC, with the pool house main power off I measured 1.5V AC, and both services off was 1.3V AC.

I am currently cleaning out all the expansion joints , filling with sand, then will put down a backer rod and topping with expansion joint compound. This joint is 3' from the water's edge and there are joints that run to the coping. I am thinking of laying a #6 bare copper wire in the joint before the backer rod and bond it to the coping, the fence and back to the pump and SWG to see if it makes a sufficient bonding loop to solve the problem without ripping up concrete.
 
That sounds reasonable, my joints look rather small but I haven't held #8 to them yet either. They just came out and marked the back yard this morning so I know where all the utilities are.

My ex (electrician) told me to try this (because I have nothing but concrete on a long side of the pool).

Dig down about 3-4" next to the concrete exposing the Rebar, chisel some concrete out so you can get a clamp around it. Attach to # 8 copper wire. Run ground rods in no more than every 8 ft. around pool. Pound in ground rods enough then add clamps and secure each. Then take a spade and push the #8 into the ground out of your way and tie back to the pump.

Not sure if he is right but it's worth a shot. What's your thought about ditching the salt? I know that's the reason, and I'm contemplating draining it, but such an expense. Especially after we just converted it in Feb. I think I will try the rods before I give up the salt.
 
Keep in mind that the salt isn't causing the issue. Getting rid of it won't solve the problem. Since you have rebar in the concrete, then bonding it is the best thing you can do and it will most likely fix the problem completely. The other thread going on about stray voltages doesn't have rebar and therefore it's not an option for them.
 
I know, you guys have that drilled in my head now and I know you are right. It's logical. So now it's just getting it done. I have heat exhaustion at the moment and am down for the count, though not nearly as bad as the last two days. Thanks :). I will let you know if this works.
 
After all was said and done. Guess what, it was the light. I ended up calling a PB insisting it was the bonding and he asked me why I thought that. So I went through everything with him and he said almost every time I get this call it's the light.

I flipped off the breaker, unwired the light and guess what, no voltage, even with no power from the breaker he said it's the continuity that will cause that problem. Just to double-check I reconnected it with my son testing it as I did and the voltage read again.(it only did it when the grounds were connected.. Note that box and switch were not grounded)

So... Tonight I am a much happier woman with a disconnected light and kids friends are able to come over swimming again. Now I am going to have every last thing over there rewired for peace of mind. Thank God, I was about to go out and buy the ground rods tomorrow, yard was marked and all..

Thank you EVERYONE for your thoughtful responses. :party:
 

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