New to this group and desperately need CYA\Cl help...

Looking forward to the updated numbers.

Regarding SWG, you really can not look at them as a money saver since you have to pay out ~$400 every 3-5 years for a new cell. The main selling point I think is convenience: not having to haul and dispose of all the bleach bottles and being able to go on vacation/etc and know that at least FC is being added everyday. Of course there are other systems that can help do the same thing (Liquidator for example).
 
jblizzle said:
Looking forward to the updated numbers.

Regarding SWG, you really can not look at them as a money saver since you have to pay out ~$400 every 3-5 years for a new cell. The main selling point I think is convenience: not having to haul and dispose of all the bleach bottles and being able to go on vacation/etc and know that at least FC is being added everyday. Of course there are other systems that can help do the same thing (Liquidator for example).

Gotcha, so I have to dispose bleach bottles to a special place other than my regular garbage?

Also, I posted an Update to my last post, if you can look it over, I appreciate it, mainly about the whole RINSE vs. WASTE setting...I am so stupid sometimes :hammer:
 
Garbage or recycling ... there may just be a lot of bottles if you are shocking.

Rinse just passed all the water through the filter and then out the waste pipe. Waste would have skipped the filter. Just means you have nicely filtered water all over your yard now :lol:

If the pressure has risen, you can just backwash ... no harm done. I don't think you should have lost any sand.
 
jblizzle said:
Garbage or recycling ... there may just be a lot of bottles if you are shocking.

Rinse just passed all the water through the filter and then out the waste pipe. Waste would have skipped the filter. Just means you have nicely filtered water all over your yard now :lol:

If the pressure has risen, you can just backwash ... no harm done. I don't think you should have lost any sand.

LMAO, well hopefully the grass will be happier that the water was filtered, as I always enjoy filtered water better LOL although can't say I enjoy chlorine water with a FC of 18 :)

Thanks again, crisis avoided, will report back once I get the level back up and run the filter a while. My TF kit already shipped too, woo hoo but no bites yet on the ColorQ ad, oh well. With all these tabs, old granular, clarifier and algaecide, I could open my own little shop on the side of the road....oh the learning by mistakes, I will say that when I learn by this way, I don't have to repeat the mistake.
 
Hi ED-209 and welcome to TFP! :)
I don't think I can add much from all the great response's here! :shock:
I felt very stupid when I first came here to learn too!
I've only been around TFP just a year this month.
I got a college education for free here!
Well, the cheapest anyhow... I did become a lifetime member to help this forum live on and help newbies like yourself! :cheers:
become-a-tfp-supporter-f27.html
My pool water is so easy to take care of now that I understand the science taught here and by using the best tool in my tool box...MY TF-100XL test kit! It will fix any problem I have and prevent a lot I don't have...
Your in good hands here at TFP, just keep reading and it will make sense to you as you apply the advice here, your pool will behave and does exactly what it's told to do! :whoot:

Do you have a Pinch A Penny pool store up there? They're all over here in central Fl.
If so go and check out there bulk 2 1/2 gallon containers of 10% liquid chlorine, It was about $8.50 here for the exchange after the $8 deposit per jug.
Try looking for a store here:
http://www.pinchapenny.com/store/

Chuck
 
supertune said:
Hi ED-209 and welcome to TFP! :)
I don't think I can add much from all the great response's here! :shock:
I felt very stupid when I first came here to learn too!
I've only been around TFP just a year this month.
I got a college education for free here!
Well, the cheapest anyhow... I did become a lifetime member to help this forum live on and help newbies like yourself! :cheers:
become-a-tfp-supporter-f27.html
My pool water is so easy to take care of now that I understand the science taught here and by using the best tool in my tool box...MY TF-100XL test kit! It will fix any problem I have and prevent a lot I don't have...
Your in good hands here at TFP, just keep reading and it will make sense to you as you apply the advice here, your pool will behave and does exactly what it's told to do! :whoot:

Do you have a Pinch A Penny pool store up there? They're all over here in central Fl.
If so go and check out there bulk 2 1/2 gallon containers of 10% liquid chlorine, It was about $8.50 here for the exchange after the $8 deposit per jug.
Try looking for a store here:
http://www.pinchapenny.com/store/

Chuck


Thanks for the support Chuck and glad others felt like I do. I mean honestly I have been around pools since I've been 14 and I "thought" I knew how to run\maintain them and even after initial research earlier this year and working one on one with pool stores, I thought, "Wow, now I know" but just after this thread I've learned more than I ever knew and feel so much better that I can finally stop wasting money.

We do have a Pinch a Penny, it's about 25 minutes from me in Pensacola, and with the price you listed, that seems like it's cheaper than just buying the regular 96oz jugs of 6% bleach but I could be wrong as I am not up to date on bleach jug prices, well not yet that is :)


Update so far, well still filling back up, it might have another 1.5 ft to fill back up to the skimmer so if I can't get it to that line by bedtime, will have to finish filling tomorrow and then run the pump for a while and try the CYA test to see what dent, if any, I made, hopefully it's enough so I can finally get to properly maintaining my pool.

Thanks again for the help and information, I will continue to read the posts to learn even more but at this time I think I'll just stick with the BBB method vs. getting involved with SWG's, my philosophy is K.I.S.S (Keep it Simple Stupid) and being Polish, that's a great philosophy to live by :goodjob:
 
ED-209,
Yes, K.I.S.S. with just cleaning up your pool with the basics and proper balances.
What you will gain is experience and know how of using the pool calculator and proper amounts of chlorine/CYA/pH/muriatic acid/TA and how they all work together. :idea:
All pools will develop a personality and you will know how to keep it from misbehaving. :hammer:
At this stage then you can make the choice of switching over to a SWG as you will understand what YOUR pool needs to stay healthy and perfect.
Once I got my first pool over the shocking process and passed all three tests, over time my pH kept shooting up and having to add muriatic acid every 10 days or so.
My TA was 120 ppm at the time, well in order to help control this pH rise, I used the instructions here on how to lower the TA here:
pool-school/lowering%20total%20alkalinity
I brought it down to 90 ppm and my pH stayed pegged at 7.6 all summer long and all I used was my 10% chlorine from Pinch A Penny and a small dose of polyquat 60 once a month. (lots of debris from trees too close to the pool)

For many months straight, my pool costs were all under $15 per month, mind you this was right through the middle of summer too!
Other than a new wall brush and a new pump fitting/hose that split. :goodjob:
Sherri always loved the pool and was inviting everyone she could over every weekend.

Chuck
 
Well results are in, after finishing filling it up and running the filter for about 4 hours, I just tested the Cl and CYA (originally my CYA was 164:

FC: 5.58
TC: 5.76
CC: .18
CYA: 78 (diluted just half sample so 1 part distilled and 1 part pool and got 39)

Sooooo should I do another drain..ugh or should I just keep my levels at 6 to 11 based on 15,500 G Vinyl pool?

I did the numbers at 50 CYA and the range for FC just went down to 4 to 8, so I didn't know if that was really much of a difference or if that would save me a good amount on Bleach as well as if it would be harder or the same to just keep the current levels?

I also went ahead and took the 4 remaining Tablets in my chlorinator OUT!!!

Thanks again for all the help and slowly but surely getting there and can't wait to get back to normal.
 
It is certainly possible to maintain your pool at CYA 80 ... theoretically the amount of FC actually consumed in your pool due to organics should be relatively independent of the CYA level. So by all means try things out where you are keeping the FC up between 6 and 11 (don't let it drop below 6). If this does not seem to be working out you could try another water replacement sometime in the future.

Where things get more difficult is with the shock levels when CYA is high (FC 31 @ CYA 80, FC 20 @ CYA 50) ... so just stay on top of the FC so you do not have the shock.

At least now you know the danger of the tablets and will keep a keener eye on your pool levels ... so you can more than likely enjoy a clear pool all summer. :goodjob:
 
I agree with Jason, you can manage the pool with 80 ppm CYA. Target the upper end of the recommended FC range and you will greatly decrease the odds of dropping below your range if you miss a day adding chlorine. Also you will probably have plenty of rain this summer and anytime there is overflow your CYA will drop a little more.
 

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
Thanks for the help everyone, ok let's see if I learned anything or if I interpreted what I read right...

So with my FC being 5.58 and with my new CYA level of 78, that puts my desired FC range 6 to 11, so in order for me to get the FC level back up, would I just add enough to raise to that level based on the calculations from The Pool Calculator, or do I need to shock whenever my FC is lower than my range?

I think I understand it that I only need to shock if my CC is .50 or higher (currently at .18) OR if I fail the Overnight Test, is that right? When I did my last shock before the drain, I did the overnight test and passed and did see a lot of dead algae on the bottom, still do, so definitely need to vacuum out but wasn't sure if the dead algae that remains can somehow come back to life in 3 days?

So if I don't need to shock, then I only need to add 174 oz of 6% Bleach to get my levels up to a FC of 11.0?

I just got back from the grocery store and got 3 jugs of 182 oz of Generic Ultra Bleach 6% for $3.99. It just had Regular Scent, so I am hoping that is the correct type, the ingredients had 6% Hypo and 94% other, so if this isn't right, please let me know :)

Last question, for now :), what does everyone use to measure out the bleach, do you use some type of clear bucket that has measurements on it, kinda like a jumbo measuring cup?

Again, I really appreciate all the helpful info and advice.
 
Only need to shock when you see CC or green or if your FC seems to be dropping more than normal.

Correct, add FC up to 11 and then add more before it drops to 6.

Plain bleach is all you need avoid the scented stuff ... wait you got 3 jugs for $4??? or $4 each?

It is not an exact science since how well do you REALLY know your volume? In my mind 174 oz ~= 182 oz (that would take you to 11.3) :wink:

After you get some experience, I have read about just counting "glugs" as you pour it in. Does not have to be exact ... but you want to be close. Others may have tips on ways to measure.

You also may want to test about an hour after you add bleach for a little while to confirm you are hitting what you planned and make yourself feel good :cheers:
 
jblizzle said:
After you get some experience, I have read about just counting "glugs" as you pour it in. Does not have to be exact ... but you want to be close. Others may have tips on ways to measure.
"Mr. Owl, how many glugs does it take to get to the center of a clorox bleach bottle?"

"Let's find out... a-one, a-two, a-thrrreeee. Three."

But seriously, that's how I measure... 1 - 182oz jug of bleach = 4 parts in my pool. Therefore, 1/2 jug is 2 parts, etc. I started out precisely measuring with graduated cup, but after a while I devolved to the glug method...with great results!
 
Thanks and LOL on the glugs.

Now the bleach I got says regular scent but all the others actually had specific scents listed so I am hoping Original Scent just means the normal brand since it was Winne Dixie's generic brand.

Oh and it was $4 per jug :)

I haven't called around to the pool stores to see how much they sell their liquid chlorine.

Thanks again for the help and keeping fingers crossed that Original Scent is ok.
 
Ok, the results are in after I added the Cl and waiting about 3 hours, results are below and I can't tell you how happy I am feeling:

FC: 11.3
TC: 11.52
CC: .22
PH: 7.6
ALK: 53
CH: 26
CYA: 64!!!!

Look at the CYA, I can't believe it, it's less than earlier today, maybe when I diluted it, the accuracy went down but this time didn't dilute, 1st time being able to get a CYA reading in months since the ColorQ max is 125 I think.

Since I just took a reading, I will also take one in the morning to test the OCLT, just to be safe.

I can't thank everyone enough for all the help and can't believe I actually now understand things.

What was so weird is because of all my bad experiences, I figured when I added the Bleach tonight that it wouldn't raise the FC like it should and I'll be darned it raised it EXACTLY to the level it said it would, I am just stunned, not that it worked but stunned I did it and I couldn't have gotten to this point without everyone's help.

I felt like I had one of those moments tonight, saying in my head, "Is it really that easy, just keep an eye out, Shock when necessary and just maintain those levels. I've wasted sooooo much money in chemicals and being "pool stored" but my eyes are now open but just wish I could convince my Dad as I told him what I've learned and he still insists on using his clarifier and just putting some Cl in his cloudy pool, I think his issue is his CH is too high as I was reading around and his pool's symptoms seem similar but I'll keep on him.

Ok, I think for now, just got a few follow up questions, c'mon you know it wouldn't be me if I didn't constantly ask stuff :)

So thankfully since by CYA is lower I just now need to maintain a FC of 5 to 9 and if and when I need to shock, it would be to a level of 25.60 vs, 31.20, but what about my other levels, specifically the Alkalinity and Calcium Hardness?

I know the range for ALK is 70 - 90+, so do I need to bump up my 53 to 70 or 80?

Also I see the range for CH is 50 - 300, do I need to bump up my 26 to around 50 or since I have a vinyl liner, does it matter? I know it matters if it's high due to scaling but didn't know what it meant if it's below the range or if I should now use the remaining cal-hypo when I need to add Cl until I get in this range? See I told ya I really am learning this stuff or I think I am :)

I haven't been able to vacuum out the dead algae yet, will this cause anything, like it to start growing again? I know that's probably stupid but had to ask. I plan to vacuum out tomorrow sometime.


Thanks again for the help, I can't express enough gratitude and glad to now only be asking if I should slightly raise vs. where I started from.
 
ED-209 said:
What was so weird is because of all my bad experiences, I figured when I added the Bleach tonight that it wouldn't raise the FC like it should and I'll be darned it raised it EXACTLY to the level it said it would, I am just stunned, not that it worked but stunned I did it and I couldn't have gotten to this point without everyone's help.
Yep there is some science to this madness :wink:
ED-209 said:
I know the range for ALK is 70 - 90+, so do I need to bump up my 53 to 70 or 80?
You could bump it up to 70, but I would suggest you give you pool a few days and see how much ph is moving. If ph is swinging around alot, then move TA up (TA is a buffer for ph). If ph is consistently rising and needing to be lowered regularly then you move TA down, though I would not go any lower than you are. If your ph is fairly stable, then do nothing to TA.

ED-209 said:
Also I see the range for CH is 50 - 300, do I need to bump up my 26 to around 50 or since I have a vinyl liner, does it matter? I know it matters if it's high due to scaling but didn't know what it meant if it's below the range or if I should now use the remaining cal-hypo when I need to add Cl until I get in this range? See I told ya I really am learning this stuff or I think I am :)
My advice would be to use the calhypo (since you have it) very carefully and get it above 50 or so then stop.
ED-209 said:
I haven't been able to vacuum out the dead algae yet, will this cause anything, like it to start growing again? I know that's probably stupid but had to ask. I plan to vacuum out tomorrow sometime.
As long as it is dead, it should be fine, but get it out of there soon and snap us a picture of the pool.
 
Ok, got my TF100 kit and I attempted a full range of tests tonight, results or what I think are the results are below with notes\comments next to results and with the exception of using 25mL for the FC FAS-DPD test, I used the standard sample amounts, not increasing\decreasing the mL sample:

FC 7.4 (Used a 25mL sample due and I am pretty sure I counted 37 drops before the red\pink was completely gone and it was clear)
TC 7.4
CC 0.0 (I put 5 drops in and no color change whatsoever)
PH 7.5 (closest shade that looked like sample, it was a good amount easier than I thought it was gonna be)
ALK 80 (Used the standard 25mL sample and counted 8 drops until the liquid changed and stayed the new color)
CH 100 (Used the standard 25mL sample and counted 10 drops until the liquid changed and stayed the new color)
CYA 60 (Held it around waist and kept adding until I couldn't see the black dot at all. Went really slow when I could still barely make the dot out)

Ok, now I know these results look a good amount different than my last results so I am thinking\hoping that the ColorQ wasn't as accurate as well, what I noticed today is that I did 2 FC tests, one with 1 part distilled and 1 part pool water and also did just a normal test to see if the amounts were the same and they actually weren't. When I diluted it and multiplied by 2 my FC was 11.64 and TC was 12 but when I DIDN'T dilute, my FC was 8.29 and my TC was 9.07 which concerned me since the CC then would be .78 however by looking at tonight's results 7.4, I think the latter (8.29) was probably close to what it was. So I was worried I needed to shock again but after doing tonight's test, I added the 5 drops to the clear liquid after my FC test and no color change was present so I take that to mean my CC was actually zero.

The other results I believe I did right and counted the exact number of drops, which is a little relief since the ALK and CYA are higher than what the ColorQ test was saying it was. I also think I matched the correct shade for the pH but I am also assuming that if a number\color doesn't exist on the test kit that the color that does match is the one to use, so say my reading matches the 7.5 but my reading is really 7.6 but since there isn't a shade for that then 7.5 is good enough?

Also I did vacuum out the dead algae and had to add maybe 6 inches or so of water as I vacuumed out a good bit as well as I backwashed too.

Ok, now here are the questions for tonight, I promise they will start tailoring off as I can't think of much else...for now :)

When I am adding the drops for all the tests, except pH and CYA, does it matter how fast I go as I read in the notes about high FC and it says to add 1 drop per second. I am sure as I do this more it will become 2nd nature but when I am starting out I want to make sure I do each drop consistently and accurately but didn't know if by doing this, it might produce false results or add more drops in order to turn the sample either clear or change color. Also since my fun little magnetic stirrer has the 1 minute timer, I feel like I am in a race and that if it stops stirring or shuts off that the time I have to turn it back on and then drop more might mess up the results. Sorry I know I have OCD but just didn't know if speed really affects it this much.

For the CYA test, yes I read the notes about this being tricky, but when I am looking at the black dot, does it need to be completely gone to where I can't make it out at all or is it just where I can not see it at a quick glance?

When doing the last part of the drops for the tests where it either changes clear or turns the sample a different color, do I continue to add drops until the color change is permanent? I read the part about fading out but I just have the impression I need to add the drops quickly and I don't want to lose count or add extra drops and not know how many extras I added after the color change, or because I was slow that the color change occurs and changes back, hope that makes sense?

When doing these tests, since it is not providing EXACT amounts (in non-increments), what I mean by that is for the FC it will either end in .50 or .20 and the same for CC, so can I take that as it's close enough? When I did my FC test I was near the end and thought it was all clear but saw some pink so added 1 but I think 3 drops came out so didn't know if the 2nd one or 3rd one changed it or if the 3rd one was just an extra. Same with the pH, I notice the only available listings are in different increments vs. getting 7.1, 7.2, etc. I guess what I am concerned with is say I am off by a few drops, that adds up pretty quick, especially in things like ALK and FC so just wasn't sure if off by these amounts is really critical and keep in mind I am coming off of using that digital ColorQ so the totals I got with that might have been inaccurate but they were displayed as exact amounts vs. in increments. I just would hate to think my FC is say 6.5 when it really is 4.5 or below my range based on CYA and I don't add Cl when I should and then all of a sudden Algae shows up but didn't know if that's what the CC reading is for.

I would do a comparison test with the 2 kits but fortunately I was able to sell it :) so just using my TF100 now.

Well I "think" that's all my questions\concerns for now and if I did the tests right, it looks like I am actually ok or within the ranges that I need to be in, my FC range with a CYA of 60 is 5 to 9, so 7.4 is ok I assume? I also assume I would just need to bump the FC back up to 9 when I start getting in the low part of this range or if I do actually get a result from the CC test.

Thanks again everyone for the help and I will take a pic soon so you can see, it should be looking good tomorrow, as long as we don't have anymore rain.
 
I was about to go to bed and read your post on my phone and just had to come respond.

Wow. By any chance are you an engineer?!?! I am ... just thought I would ask :-D

Anyway, I just want to say that I think you get "it". This board is about understanding your pool and then only putting in what it actually needs. Now that you have the kit (and seem to be enjoying it), it is about being consistent with what works in YOUR pool.All the suggested levels have ranges. All the tests have accuracy ranges. You have gotten used to double decimal "accuracy" with your ColorQ and that is just not necessary. It is not brain surgery it is Margaritaville :wink:

So to address a couple of your questions:
- pH is the closest color in your opinion ... sometimes if I think it is between shades I just right down a number in between, just be consistent

- I don't think the speed of the drops matters much .... just close to 1/second. The color changes fast ... especially with the speedsitr. If you go rediculously slow, you may get some funny results for some of the tests. Don't race the timer, just start it again, the delay will not hurt your results.

- CYA the dot should be gone completely ... remember though, the test is only good to about +/-10. You can always pour the solution back in and do it a few times to see if you get the same result ... be consistent.

- The drops go in until the last drop does not change the color anymore and that last drop does not count.

- To get an error of 2.0 FC would either require 4 or 10 drops difference, I think generally you will be well within that accuracy. Also algae is not going to just show up unexpectedly. If you are test your FC and adding bleach every 1-2 days, your FC should not drop way below the minimum and a brief drop does not doom you to shocking (just add a little extra) and keep an eye out for suspicious changes in your levels.

You are correct, just continue to bump the FC up to 9 before it drops below 5. Beyond that you levels look pretty good :goodjob:

There may be a few tweaks that could be a good idea, but they are not urgent and we can discuss them when you are ready.

Have you been using the poolcalculator yet?

I appreciate your willingness to learn :cheers:
 
jblizzle said:
I was about to go to bed and read your post on my phone and just had to come respond.

Wow. By any chance are you an engineer?!?! I am ... just thought I would ask :-D

Anyway, I just want to say that I think you get "it". This board is about understanding your pool and then only putting in what it actually needs. Now that you have the kit (and seem to be enjoying it), it is about being consistent with what works in YOUR pool.All the suggested levels have ranges. All the tests have accuracy ranges. You have gotten used to double decimal "accuracy" with your ColorQ and that is just not necessary. It is not brain surgery it is Margaritaville :wink:

So to address a couple of your questions:
- pH is the closest color in your opinion ... sometimes if I think it is between shades I just right down a number in between, just be consistent

- I don't think the speed of the drops matters much .... just close to 1/second. The color changes fast ... especially with the speedsitr. If you go rediculously slow, you may get some funny results for some of the tests. Don't race the timer, just start it again, the delay will not hurt your results.

- CYA the dot should be gone completely ... remember though, the test is only good to about +/-10. You can always pour the solution back in and do it a few times to see if you get the same result ... be consistent.

- The drops go in until the last drop does not change the color anymore and that last drop does not count.

- To get an error of 2.0 FC would either require 4 or 10 drops difference, I think generally you will be well within that accuracy. Also algae is not going to just show up unexpectedly. If you are test your FC and adding bleach every 1-2 days, your FC should not drop way below the minimum and a brief drop does not doom you to shocking (just add a little extra) and keep an eye out for suspicious changes in your levels.

You are correct, just continue to bump the FC up to 9 before it drops below 5. Beyond that you levels look pretty good :goodjob:

There may be a few tweaks that could be a good idea, but they are not urgent and we can discuss them when you are ready.

Have you been using the poolcalculator yet?

I appreciate your willingness to learn :cheers:


Thanks so much for the information, I am not an engineer but a programmer\analyst so have to be very detailed or more like anal when it comes to validating the data is accurate and let's just say I've been told many times I provide too much information and should either be an auditor or a lawyer LOL but I tried going back to school\college to finish and got my AA but now the classes I need for computer BS degree are only taught during the day and not online or at night, which is insane. I even wrote to the president of the university and was told there just wasn't enough demand...and I am like are you kidding me, not enough demand for computers, so it is what it is, been with my current company for 12 years now, so now just trying to make it another 18 for retirement LOL.

I read the info above and understand and appreciate the advice. However you mentioned to add bleach every 1 to 2 days, is that true even if the FC is in mid to high part of the desired range based on CYA? I know probably it will lower within 1 to 2 days normally and just wanted to make sure that's the reason for adding every 1 to 2 days vs. always adding bleach 1 to 2 days.

Oh and I know it might sound to soon but I am all ears about the tweaks you mention :) My mind is like a sponge and I don't think of it as info overload but more of a challenge to keep my mind occupied :) I tend to learn something by overkill, then once I learned it, I get bored and move onto a new project. My other current project is learning lawn chemistry as I am tired of weeds :)

Oh and if I hadn't mentioned it, I will be getting a screened pool cage, so can't wait to not have to worry about bugs, frogs, spiders, leaves and minimize the dirt, so that hopefully will free me up the extra time to test daily.

Well, I think bed sounds good now, thanks again and can't wait to find out about the tweaks :)
 

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
Thread Status
Hello , This thread has been inactive for over 60 days. New postings here are unlikely to be seen or responded to by other members. For better visibility, consider Starting A New Thread.