Really need advice on a very large remodel project

[CraigMW]

Carl hit the nail on the head exactly with respect to my concern regarding tiling. I too remember reading of Matts (from Sweden I think) pool build as described on this forum. He built this truly unique and beautiful pool and decided to tile it. He ended up tragically losing much of the tile due to it not adhering properly, resulting in him having to start over. I don't know how or if he's progressed beyond that, but certainly wish him well. In any event, I think that replaster quote seems very high. Even out here in SoCal where everything seems overpriced, we could redo our pool for about 1/2 that. I like the look of white plaster though, so I'd go for that. But, if you really want to go with the tile, make sure to invest some serious effort into finding the right type of material to set that tile into, and the appropriate grout. As was mentioned, tile on a bathroom wall is a very different beast than at the bottom of a pool with people constantly walking on it. If done with the proper materials, it could certainly work. But I wouldn't go down to your local HD or Lowes and use their thinset. You need something purposely designed for this.

BTW, almost everyone who has purchased a house in the last three or so years is under water, at least with respect to current housing prices. We bought ours about two years ago, and I really don't want to even know what it's currently priced at. It just means we won't be selling any time soon, which is fine because we've put plenty of work into it, and I really like the place.

 

[chanced]

Chanced, not sure where you live but start off buy using the internet and find the plaster companies in your area, here in DFW there are only a few. From there you can ask the plaster company for references for tilers and flat work guy's. Then start taking bids! Remember the quote you are given is always negotiable! Try buying all the materials on your own, this will save you money! At the time I was taking quotes Texas moss rock was $1000 per ton! I bought it and had it delivered for $130 a ton! And I got to pick every piece! I ordered 8 tons of rock! Thats big savings! Look up the "Bucket Test", you'll need to do this to check for leaks. 12k for a retaining wall sounds steep! Not sure what your looking for but I would do that myself.

Yea, I tried that initially but I wasn't having much luck. From what I understand, there are only 2 plaster companies in town that do pools and I couldn't find them. Going to give it another shot and see if I can't unearth them though.

Saving $9k on rock is awesome man! Sounds like we have a very similar approach to keeping our money in our pockets I take it you also use slickdeals and fatwallet as well

Oh, I'm definitely doing the retaining wall myself.

 

[chanced]

For the decking around the pool, I would really need to see it and test it. I would likely cut a 12.5" out line around the pool, remove the stone on top of the bond beam, and then either replace it with 12" long coping bricks or try to shave 1/2" (+/- 1/4") off the outside edge of the stone. A 7" grinder with a diamond blade is enough of an outline. It won't be perfect but with the caulk in between, only you will know of any imperfections. That would leave a half inch gap to be filled between the bond beam and the rest of the decking. I use either sand or backer rod and self leveling caulk so each can expand and contract at different rates. The height is adjusted using mortar between the stone and the bond beam. Mixing mortar, chipping mortar off surfaces are pretty stress free. Setting the stones of bricks, cutting the bricks for curves might be a bit more nerve racking. If you are able to remove the old mortar, you can likely save the stone and material costs of new brick. The setting of them is dependent on the use of bubble levels of various sizes.

Awesome, thank you man. I'm going to use your advice to kickstart my research into this. I'm going to look around for other material that may work as an edge as well. I personally like the more modern, clean lines that you see in concrete or wood (even the new hybrid stuff). I also recognize that it can get expensive quick. Having the rocks meet a clean lined border may give it a more appealing look to me (and hopefully others). I'll keep you (and anyone else interested) in my pursuit here.

As for the tile thickness, thicker is better usually, The thin set mortar is almost always white or gray and defines how far out from the sealed gunite wall it will be. It should be about 1/2" out. I can't stress enough using a pro for this and I still don't like glass near a pool. Its the #1 reason I don't offer my customers Beadcrete finishes either. Being in the South is different than NJ however. Using a tile pro with pool experience is strongly encouraged by me. I am just not comfortable otherwise. Remember, the waterline will be 1/2 exposed, 1/2 submerged at a minimum and that can lead to issues. It is why I use pool rated tile, not regular tiles like you find on the floor, bathroom, or back splash of a home.

I figured as much. It makes a lot more sense as well since the tile itself would be sturdier.

The reason I decided to go down the route of tile vs plaster is because I was having a really hard time finding plaster companies (not pool companies that are jacking up their rates through the roof). I can find tilers pretty easily and assuming they are okay with it, I may even be able to help where as with plaster there's really nothing I could do to save on costs.

The wall, if you can get some help, would need to be dug to the base. There you can see if the footer used broke or not, Lose the existing wall and rebuild it, I suspect the footer is fine but is an easy fix if it isn't. 6" square pressure treated lumber (use the good stuff. HD land Lowes won't carry it because of it's cost), a chain saw and spikes. A few drainage ports with perforated pipe and gravel for the back side and it's done. Just back fill and sod it . Done. Lots of money to be saved there!

Since I'll be doing it myself, I'm afraid to take down the wall without removing the trees. As I do not want to remove them, I think going out 2' - 3' and building a new wall up to about 3', knocking down what is there now, georgidding and then finishing the last portion would give me the support needed to maintain the weight while allowing me to build at my own time.

I plan to add drill in drain holes every 6" or so on the existing wall to hopefully prevent it from pushing out on my new wall.

The finishing of the pool should be done by those have the skills. You don't. These guys do it daily.

HTH,

Scott

Farming out what you can't do will save you a good chunk

Understood and I really appreciate your advice.

It's not just saving costs either for me, but time. I'm a consultant so my hourly rate has to be considered. Once you work on an hourly basis, you quickly realize that money = time and time = money. At the same time, I recognize how much pool companies are marking up labor. I have nothing against that but I'd just rather pay a premium for them to farm out the work.

It really just comes down to who or what I can find in terms of direct labor. If I can manage to find a plaster company, then by all means, that's what I intend to use. But at the same time, if I'm saving 80% off of retail by going straight to the source on tiling, I see that as a potential for huge savings too. If I can find a good set of tilers that can get the job done in the 3k range, then I'm going to come out ahead over hiring a pool company to do plastering.

 

[chanced]

Carl hit the nail on the head exactly with respect to my concern regarding tiling. I too remember reading of Matts (from Sweden I think) pool build as described on this forum. He built this truly unique and beautiful pool and decided to tile it. He ended up tragically losing much of the tile due to it not adhering properly, resulting in him having to start over. I don't know how or if he's progressed beyond that, but certainly wish him well.

That would be devastating and I definitely take the story to heart. Thank you for the warning.. if this is the route I go down, I'll definitely spend more time than I originally anticipated on finding the proper material.

From my research so far, epoxy is the way I want to go for grouting. It doesn't expand and contract like typical grouting, making it easier to install. It's also waterproof by nature which helps long-term. I've also found from my research that the pool tile needs to be waterproofed with a special membrane designed for glass.

In any event, I think that replaster quote seems very high. Even out here in SoCal where everything seems overpriced, we could redo our pool for about 1/2 that. I like the look of white plaster though, so I'd go for that.

Sadly, that was one of the lowest I've received so far. The highest I've gotten was 18k just for for the plastering.

But, if you really want to go with the tile, make sure to invest some serious effort into finding the right type of material to set that tile into, and the appropriate grout. As was mentioned, tile on a bathroom wall is a very different beast than at the bottom of a pool with people constantly walking on it. If done with the proper materials, it could certainly work. But I wouldn't go down to your local HD or Lowes and use their thinset. You need something purposely designed for this.

It really just comes down to availability at this point. I can find direct tile guys but can't find plasterers. I'm still shopping for pool companies to do the plaster (infact, just got off the phone with one).

What started me down this tile expedition was finding a means to oder tile directly from the manufacturers. I've found the companies that make the tile that supply some of the bigger glass pool tile companies and i'm seeing prices at 1/10th of what pool companies can get them at (after buying them from the aforementioned distributors). It just seems like if I can get tile at those prices and the labor itself isn't exuberantly higher, that I'll end up with a cost in line or below the estimates I'm seeing for plaster work.

BTW, almost everyone who has purchased a house in the last three or so years is under water, at least with respect to current housing prices. We bought ours about two years ago, and I really don't want to even know what it's currently priced at. It just means we won't be selling any time soon, which is fine because we've put plenty of work into it, and I really like the place.

Understood and I didn't mean to make that a big deal. Someone PMed me thinking that I was losing my house and I was just trying to clarify in the event that others thought so as well. All I was trying to get at was that because my wife and I, like so many others, are under water that I don't want to open the money hose on this project unless I absolutely have to. It's looking like I'll end up owning this house for awhile though, even if I'm not living in it.