Autopilot total control?

12-21-07

I took two identical(3 gal) clean buckets, rinsed and filled them with pool water. One was put aside and the other was put in our tanning bed for 3.5 hours. It was foggy and overcast all day so I couldn't go outside but the tanning bed clearly says it emits UV rays.

I tested the water from the start:
Bucket 1 and 2 same water FC 2.4 CC .8

After the 3.5 hours
Bucket 1 pool water set aside FC 2.4 CC .8
Bucket 2 pool water put in tanning bed FC .2 CC .8

Doesn't look good? What should we try next.

Thanks again for hanging in there with me on this :bowdown:
 
andy said:
I did have my pool water and well water tested for iron (recently) and none showed up. I have though added about 3 or so quarts of ProTeam Metal Magic (over the last few months) to combat brown stains in the pool which are fine now.
Well, the ProTeam Metal Magic from this MSDS is (1-Hydroxyethylene) Diphosphonic Acid (HEDPA) which is the chemical formula and structure shown here but I don't think this would show up in the Taylor phosphate test unless it got oxidized into orthophosphate (and only the latter is algae food and not a sequestrant). Maybe, just maybe, the higher chlorine levels and lack of CYA did break down the sequestrant releasing phosphate. I am guessing that the Taylor test measures phosphates by adding ammonium molybdate and then stannous chloride is added as a reducing agent that converts the complex to a blue color that is then compared to a card.

Anyway, Jason is right that you normally don't worry about phosphates, but at extremely high levels and with sufficient other factors such as nitrates and light, then algae can grow quickly. Sufficient chlorine levels keep the algae at bay, but higher levels may be needed to do this and at some point it may not be worth it. Let's do one thing at a time here and see what your other tests find before we determine whether phosphates should be reduced or not. Unless you have unusual chlorine demand, I don't think it's worth it (so that's where Jason's explanation of how to measure your SWG output is very helpful).

Richard
 
andy said:
Doesn't look good? What should we try next.
Well, the fact that the FC went down so fast does mean the tanning bed is putting out UV rays in the range that at least is absorbed by chlorine, but the CC wasn't affected. This isn't a bad sign -- if the CCs are that "stable", then they may not be as hazardous either since they are less reactive (this rule doesn't always hold, of course, since compounds like mercury are very stable but also very toxic, but for the typical compounds in the pool the less reactive then generally the less likely to cause problems).

OK, next up is non-chlorine shock, potassium monopersulfate (MPS). The normal recommended dose for pools is 1 pound per 10,000 gallons once or twice a week while for spas it's a higher dose of 1-2 ounces per 250 gallons after each use. Let's go with a higher dose just to see if it will do anything. Take a new bucket of pool water (the others you can either put back into the pool or dump their contents -- there's nothing wrong with them) and add one-tenth of a teaspoon per gallon. So 1/4 teaspoon in 4 gallons. It's not very much, but I want a realistic test since we're not going to put too much into your pool. Just keep the bucket uncovered and stir up a little to mix the MPS after you add it.

Now the trick is measuring the CC since any residual MPS will actually measure as CC itself. After one day with the MPS in the bucket, I want you to measure the CC as you normally would and then repeat the test, but add 2 drops of Sodium Thiosulfate solution (the stuff you add at the start of your Total Alkalinity test) to the test sample and then proceed with the CC test. You will certainly find that the FC goes away in the second test, but the CC that remains might be real and will certainly not be MPS. To confirm that, test a regular pool sample both ways as well -- first without the thiosulfate and then again with the thiosulfate added (this makes sure the thiosulfate doesn't get rid of the CC which, unfortunately, it might during the CC portion of the test that "releases" the combined chlorine to become "free").

Another option to the thiosulfate method is just to wait and test after 2 days, 3 days, etc. as the MPS will slowly go away as it finds things to oxidize (it's similar to chlorine in that way), but I don't think this is particularly reliable.

The other option you have for a pure CC test is yet another test kit, the Taylor K-2041 here which removes the MPS interference from the CC test. I hate to have you spend more money and get another test which is why I offered the other possible alternative about, but what I described above may not work. The Taylor K-2041 test will certainly work and I've used that myself.

Anyway, if the MPS doesn't get rid of the CCs and if no one else comes up with any idea, then you'll probably just live with it and slowly dilute it away over time with partial drain/refill of water. At least with the CYA in the water I think you are going to be building up CCs more slowly than you did before. I suppose one other thing to try in a bucket test would be a phosphate remover just to see if that changes the results of the CC test in case of some strange interference and another thing you could try is some Metal Magic in the bucket just in case the iron has come back and is interfering with the CC test.

Richard
 
Just keep in mind that if you do use MPS in the pool that it will interfere with the ORP sensor in the Total Control system. That might well be worth it for a one time use, but will require special management to keep the FC level from going too low.

I suggest doing a bucket test with high shock levels of chlorine to see if that takes care of the CC. One half teaspoon of laundry bleach in a three gallon bucket of pool water should be a good high shock level (we are guessing a little at the CYA level so that could be a little high). Mix it up well and then give it several hours or a day to react and see what happens. You may have already had effective chlorine levels this high when your CYA level was lower, but we don't know for sure what the CYA level was (or what it is now for that matter) so you might as well be through and try shocking with chlorine at levels that are sure to be high for your current CYA level.
 
Ok, I am at the end of my second run cycle for the day an I've run the Pool Pilot test cycle (which turns out to be very easy) and here are the results. I will check them the same time tomorrow night and so on to see what kind of usage we are finding.

Cell= 24V 6.5A
Amp-Hrs 002179
351 oz acid fed
ORP 643 (640)
PH 7.45 (7.70)

chem geek, I will print out your last post and get the MPS to do the test in the morning. I also need to read the post over a few times to take it all in.
Question....would it hurt anything (even though it may not be necessary) if I were to reduce the phosphate. I'm not really worried about spending the $ if it could help, but I do not want to do it if it may hurt or complicate things.
 
Jason, just read your post. I have some
regular Clorox bleach 6% and also have some
BioGuard Smart Shock Oxidizer-sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione 63.05%--- copper .26%---other ingredients 36.69% (I've never used this but last time at the pool store they talked me into buying it)

I could try these bucket tests also
 
Phosphate reducer tends to make the pool cloud up when phosphate levels are high. It can be a little unsightly but it isn't dangerous and the filter will clean up the clouding after a couple of hours to days (depending on how much you do at once and how large the pump filter is compared to the size of the pool). When phosphate levels are very high, which yours are, and you want to reduce the level all at once it is better to use phosfloc to avoid having to backwash/clean the filter constantly. The whole process is a fair bit of work in addition to the $.

Phosphate is algae food and high phosphate levels mean algae can grow very quickly. However, sufficient chlorine levels will keep algae away regardless of the phosphate levels. The tricky part is that it is possible to have intermediate chlorine levels where algae gets started and is then killed by the chlorine over and over again. This can result in increased chlorine demand and a constant source of CC, as the chlorine is getting turned into CC as it kills the algae. Personally, I think that raising the chlorine level a little so this cycle never gets started is simpler and cheaper than trying to lower the phosphate level.
 
I have 3 buckets testing and will check them tomorrow after they have sat 24 hours.
1. 4 gal pool water and .4 tsp MPS
2. 3 gal pool water and 1/2 tsp bleach
3. 3 gal pool water and 1 tsp bleach
 
12-22-07

Pool Pilot test results:
Cell= 24V 6.5A
Amp-Hrs 002183 (4 hours more than yesterday)
351 oz acid fed
ORP 643 (640)
PH 7.47 (7.70)

Taylor results:
FC 2.8
CC .8
 

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Bucket test results:

I used the .5ppm per drop test for these instead of the .2 I normally use. This explains the difference in CC

1. 4 gal pool water and .4 tsp MPS-------------FC 24 CC 1
2. 3 gal pool water and 1/2 tsp bleach--------FC 15.5 CC 1
3. 3 gal pool water and 1 tsp bleach----------FC 24.5 CC 1

Any suggestions now?
 
Andy,

Unless anyone else has other suggestions, I'd say you have persistent Combined Chlorine that isn't volatile and doesn't break down readily with sunlight, chlorine or non-chlorine shock (MPS). The only other things I would suggest is first trying metal sequestrant. So take another bucket of pool water, add a small amount of metal sequestrant to it, wait a few hours, then test the CC.

The last test I can think of would be to take a bucket of pool water and add phosphate remover to it. After it settles, measure the phosphate level to make sure it's low, then retest CC.

If these tests don't show lower CC, then I don't know what else to try and you'll have to live with the CC. Over time, a partial drain/refill on a regular basis could dilute it unless it's caused by something in the fill water or continues to get created and not broken down. The fact that nothing, not even sunlight and air circulation, is getting rid of it seems like it's not real true CC but something else fooling the test, but I don't know for sure.

Richard
 
andy said:
1. 4 gal pool water and .4 tsp MPS-------------FC 24 CC 1
Why was the FC so high in the MPS test? I thought you just used pool water for that and didn't add chlorine to this particular bucket. With regular pool water and MPS you should have had an FC around 2.8 and could have used the 25 ml sample size to measure CC with 0.2 ppm resolution.
 
chem geek said:
andy said:
1. 4 gal pool water and .4 tsp MPS-------------FC 24 CC 1
Why was the FC so high in the MPS test? I thought you just used pool water for that and didn't add chlorine to this particular bucket. With regular pool water and MPS you should have had an FC around 2.8 and could have used the 25 ml sample size to measure CC with 0.2 ppm resolution.

Good question!!!!! Sounds like there might be some errors in testing happening here. If so this could explain the entire problem!
 
waterbear said:
Good question!!!!! Sounds like there might be some errors in testing happening here. If so this could explain the entire problem!

If you have a better way for me to test the water please share. I'm no water expert and can only follow the directions on the Taylor kit.
 
I think that perhaps the high level of MPS is getting reported as FC instead of CC. Assuming that the ".4 tsp" was "1/4 tsp" for one-quarter teaspoon of MPS, then in 4 gallons of pool water that is equivalent to 12 ppm FC/CC (it's 60 ppm of MPS at a density of 1.3 g/ml or roughly 1.3 ounce weight/fluid ounce, but the chlorine test measures in different units). The 24 ppm measurement you are getting is more like 1/2 teaspoon of MPS in 4 gallons. In any event, it does seem as if the MPS bucket is measuring the MPS level mostly as FC.

So, try the following. When you take a sample to measure, add 8 drops of thiosulfate solution (the first reagent you normally use with two drops in the TA test) to the sample and mix. Then measure the FC and CC. Do this both with a fresh pool sample and also with a sample from the MPS bucket. The thiosulfate should reduce the MPS so that it no longer interferes though it will also reduce any FC chlorine as well. What I don't know is whether it will have any effect on the CC, but that's why I'm having you do the test on the pool water so we can see if CC still shows up. I expect 0 ppm FC in both cases -- the question is what will happen to CC.

I hope you aren't getting frustrated doing all of these tests. They are helpful in eliminating possibilities and not wasting effort on the pool as a whole.

Richard
 
chem geek said:
I think that perhaps the high level of MPS is getting reported as FC instead of CC. Assuming that the ".4 tsp" was "1/4 tsp"

I hope you aren't getting frustrated doing all of these tests. They are helpful in eliminating possibilities and not wasting effort on the pool as a whole.

Richard

Your first post said 1/10 tsp per gallon and also said 1/4 tsp per 4 gal. I went with the 1/10 tsp per gal which was 4/10 tsp per gal(just under 1/2 tsp) and not 1/4 which is only .25

I'm not at all getting frustrated with the test and very much appreciate the help. Unless waterbear has a better way for me to test things I see no value to his response since he hasn't offered any help as yet.

I will do the tests you suggested now and report back.
 
I tested both the MPS bucket and fresh pool water.
I did both the 10ml test and 25ml test to both samples just to be sure.
I added 8 drops of thiosulfate first to each test and then did the chlorine test as usual.

MPS Bucket
FC 0 CC 0

Pool water
FC 0 CC 0
 
12-23-07

End of day test results
Pool Pilot test results:
Cell= 0V 6.5A
Amp-Hrs 002191
351 oz acid fed
ORP 653 (640)
PH 7.57 (7.70)

Taylor results:
FC 2.6
CC .8
PH 7.3
TA 130
CH 400 this one is always hard to read because I seem to get more purpleish blue
CYA 0 slightly dull at 30ppm
 

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