15 June 2024 This is like starting up a chemical plant!

[Oona]

It makes no sense to me drilling 2 wells-I would drill 1 deep well and treat 1 problem. My only caveat is if the deep well is drilled into a fissure instead of an aquifer therefore potentially decreasing overall output. Getting a large (1500 gallon) storage tank with a vent will allow much of the rotten egg smell to gas off and can replace the anode rod in your hot water tank with a mag or zinc rod so that it doesn’t interact with any sulfur that may be remaining.

 

[setsailsoon]

It makes no sense to me drilling 2 wells-I would drill 1 deep well and treat 1 problem. My only caveat is if the deep well is drilled into a fissure instead of an aquifer therefore potentially decreasing overall output. Getting a large (1500 gallon) storage tank with a vent will allow much of the rotten egg smell to gas off and can replace the anode rod in your hot water tank with a mag or zinc rod so that it doesn’t interact with any sulfur that may be remaining.

Oona,
Great advice thanks! Large tank isn't an option (HOA) but I like the single well approach.

Chris

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Folks,

I'll be drilling 2 wells either this week or next and I'd like to get at least one of them rigged up to supply construction needs so I need to make decisions on treatment for at least one of the wells. Everybody in my area has a softener downstream of an iron/sulfur removal system but iron/sulfur treatment use vary widely. People seem to be able to avoid iron by going deeper than 100' but at this level they have sulfur (rotten egg H2S). Some do one well others do two with a "sulfur well" and an "iron well". There are several ways this is being dealt with and below summarizes treatment options as I understand them. I'd appreciate any comments to help with my selection:

Air Oxidizing Systems use air or dissolved oxygen to oxidize soluble iron and sulfur then "trap" insoluble form in bed and backwash to remove.

• Birm can be used for the iron removal in shallower wells and works well for this except very shallow wells where iron is pretty high. Also this doesn't work at all for sulfur wells because sulfur removes the catalytic coating.
• Catalytic carbon is very common and works for moderate iron and sulfur levels. But it's more pH sensitive. This isn't really a problem since our pH falls right in the sweet spot for catalytic carbon.
• Katalox is a media that works similar to Catalytic carbon but has a proprietary coating that works on higher levels of iron and sulfur plus it has a wider pH range.

Chemical Oxidizing Systems work similar to air but use a different oxidizing agent

• Chlorine injection oxidizes with chlorine via an injector pump then has a pressure cylinder that traps the insoluble forms of H2S and iron. It appears quite a few homes use this.
• There is a peroxide version but I can't find anyone that uses it, it's expensive, and I don't know where to get a good supply of peroxide.

My Thoughts and Questions:

1. Birm, catalytic carbon, and Katalox are all about in order of cost with Birm being slightly lower and they are all $1000-$2000. Media last 3-5 years for iron and sulfur, media for softeners last over 10 years. Catalytic carbon is probably the most prevalent in the neighborhood and there are a few Katalox systems.
2. Chlorine injection is good since it provides bacterial protection but it does require chlorine addition. Doesn't seem to be a big problem to find chlorine and it only requires fill every other month or less
3. It seems I can get a sulfur well with no iron by drilling deeper (over 100') and an iron well with no sulfur at about 70'. Incremental cost of well is ~$500.
4. Birm is eliminated since I could end up with sulfur even if it isn't apparent initially. I'm leaning toward Katalox since it's so versatile and almost no maintenance. We'll have under counter RO for drinking water do bacteria and most viruses are rejected here. But I'm still a little uneasy about no chlorine. The entire development uses septic systems for each house but wells are way deeper and locations are regulated to provide good separation from septic systems. Wells last so long that cost of well isn't all that significant so I think it makes sense to go with deeper well for both wells. In a pinch I could always irrigate with sulfur water and drink it after it gasses off if I ever have a failure of treatment system but Iron could be a big problem in the pool even for short periods of time.
5. Are there any other systems that might be practical other than whole house RO (super expensive).

I'd appreciate your thoughts/comments on any of this, especially my rationale and decision in item 4.

Thanks much!

Chris

One well or two, I would leave that up to your ability to tolerate the expense. Double the wells, double the cost of upkeep ...

As for filtration methods - pick one that seems to be the simplest for you to work with. Katalox seems like a good choice and, if it doesn't work as well as you would like it to, you can always switch to a direct oxidation method. I would suggest you look into testing a bit more because it would be good to know if the hydrogen sulfide gas is coming from a biological source or not. There is sulfur bacteria that can live down in deep wells and it is sometimes advantageous to inject chlorine into a well to kill off the sulfur bacteria generating the hydrogen sulfide gas. If it's not from bacteria, then you just have to try to oxidize it in a filter.

Point-of-use RO is much more economical than trying to setup a whole house system. You can boost the efficiency of RO by adding in an active permeate pump that drives up the membrane pressure. Higher pressure equals greater efficiency. Just make sure that you are feeding the RO system with water from the softener so that it has minimal calcium/magnesium in it. RO membranes die from mineral scaling.

As for the pool, obviously get your autofill plumbed with softened water but for initial fill, you might look into water delivery options. A lot of time the trucks simply fill up with water from the nearest fire hydrant to the pool but you may have an option to get treated water delivered. It will be costly though. As for ongoing fills for the pool, your only option to keep the pool iron free is to utilize rain water to the best of your ability and minimize the use of well water. Even the best filtration systems will not get rid of all the iron and so it will eventually build up in the pool. This could take years though so I wouldn't put a lot of concern into it right now. Just get yourself positioned for the future when the need to tackle iron to a greater extent might arise. Simple designing the roof gutter system with diverters to enable to move roof water to a point near the pool can be helpful in capturing some of that free water. Draining the pool a bit right before a good rainstorm also helps to keep the water freshened up. Just make it easy to implement.

 

[setsailsoon]

One well or two, I would leave that up to your ability to tolerate the expense. Double the wells, double the cost of upkeep ...

As for filtration methods - pick one that seems to be the simplest for you to work with. Katalox seems like a good choice and, if it doesn't work as well as you would like it to, you can always switch to a direct oxidation method. I would suggest you look into testing a bit more because it would be good to know if the hydrogen sulfide gas is coming from a biological source or not. There is sulfur bacteria that can live down in deep wells and it is sometimes advantageous to inject chlorine into a well to kill off the sulfur bacteria generating the hydrogen sulfide gas. If it's not from bacteria, then you just have to try to oxidize it in a filter.

Point-of-use RO is much more economical than trying to setup a whole house system. You can boost the efficiency of RO by adding in an active permeate pump that drives up the membrane pressure. Higher pressure equals greater efficiency. Just make sure that you are feeding the RO system with water from the softener so that it has minimal calcium/magnesium in it. RO membranes die from mineral scaling.

As for the pool, obviously get your autofill plumbed with softened water but for initial fill, you might look into water delivery options. A lot of time the trucks simply fill up with water from the nearest fire hydrant to the pool but you may have an option to get treated water delivered. It will be costly though. As for ongoing fills for the pool, your only option to keep the pool iron free is to utilize rain water to the best of your ability and minimize the use of well water. Even the best filtration systems will not get rid of all the iron and so it will eventually build up in the pool. This could take years though so I wouldn't put a lot of concern into it right now. Just get yourself positioned for the future when the need to tackle iron to a greater extent might arise. Simple designing the roof gutter system with diverters to enable to move roof water to a point near the pool can be helpful in capturing some of that free water. Draining the pool a bit right before a good rainstorm also helps to keep the water freshened up. Just make it easy to implement.

Matt,

Great suggestions! Rain fill for the pool may be more possible than I had thought. We have a concrete tile roof that's huge (6300 sq ft slab) since it covers the house, 2 2-car garages, and a 1000 sq ft porch that's behind the house and between house and pool. The roof is completely guttered and would be easy to slope them toward the rear of the house slightly. So long as I can hide the tanks I think I might be able to reduce my wife's anxiety. Maybe one or two of the large blue plastic barrels for collection might work. The county operates a large scale RO treatment plant to blend with treated water that supplies much of Stuart and other areas. I don't know much else about it but I do remember my total hardness at the previous house dropped dramatically. I'll give them a call to see if they can fill a tank truck and what the cost would be.

Thanks much!

Chris

 

[setsailsoon]

Folks,

Big day today, we got the building permit approved. Finally! You may recall I was hoping to get it by end of January. If I subtract out the weeks of successive covid delays and some owner-builder-learning (OBL) I got it pretty close to on time. I'm very happy to have a patient and helpful staff at our building department. So now things start to happen on the house. It'll take Tue/Wed to get the excavation complete, then we drill wells that should take 2 days and week after we're starting form boards. I need a slab soon! I have 4000 blocks scheduled for delivery on the 25th of this month along with all the lintels etc. Now here's the really neat part. I have one revision to make on the pool preliminary design then construction drawings in a couple weeks. Then pool permit!

I think it's time for a fine Kentucky Bourbon!

Chris

 

[kimkats]

we got the building permit approved.

Frame that bad boy!!!!!

 

[Taylor1584]

Folks,

I'll be drilling 2 wells either this week or next and I'd like to get at least one of them rigged up to supply construction needs so I need to make decisions on treatment for at least one of the wells. Everybody in my area has a softener downstream of an iron/sulfur removal system but iron/sulfur treatment use vary widely. People seem to be able to avoid iron by going deeper than 100' but at this level they have sulfur (rotten egg H2S). Some do one well others do two with a "sulfur well" and an "iron well". There are several ways this is being dealt with and below summarizes treatment options as I understand them. I'd appreciate any comments to help with my selection:

Air Oxidizing Systems use air or dissolved oxygen to oxidize soluble iron and sulfur then "trap" insoluble form in bed and backwash to remove.

• Birm can be used for the iron removal in shallower wells and works well for this except very shallow wells where iron is pretty high. Also this doesn't work at all for sulfur wells because sulfur removes the catalytic coating.
• Catalytic carbon is very common and works for moderate iron and sulfur levels. But it's more pH sensitive. This isn't really a problem since our pH falls right in the sweet spot for catalytic carbon.
• Katalox is a media that works similar to Catalytic carbon but has a proprietary coating that works on higher levels of iron and sulfur plus it has a wider pH range.

Chemical Oxidizing Systems work similar to air but use a different oxidizing agent

• Chlorine injection oxidizes with chlorine via an injector pump then has a pressure cylinder that traps the insoluble forms of H2S and iron. It appears quite a few homes use this.
• There is a peroxide version but I can't find anyone that uses it, it's expensive, and I don't know where to get a good supply of peroxide.

My Thoughts and Questions:

1. Birm, catalytic carbon, and Katalox are all about in order of cost with Birm being slightly lower and they are all $1000-$2000. Media last 3-5 years for iron and sulfur, media for softeners last over 10 years. Catalytic carbon is probably the most prevalent in the neighborhood and there are a few Katalox systems.
2. Chlorine injection is good since it provides bacterial protection but it does require chlorine addition. Doesn't seem to be a big problem to find chlorine and it only requires fill every other month or less
3. It seems I can get a sulfur well with no iron by drilling deeper (over 100') and an iron well with no sulfur at about 70'. Incremental cost of well is ~$500.
4. Birm is eliminated since I could end up with sulfur even if it isn't apparent initially. I'm leaning toward Katalox since it's so versatile and almost no maintenance. We'll have under counter RO for drinking water do bacteria and most viruses are rejected here. But I'm still a little uneasy about no chlorine. The entire development uses septic systems for each house but wells are way deeper and locations are regulated to provide good separation from septic systems. Wells last so long that cost of well isn't all that significant so I think it makes sense to go with deeper well for both wells. In a pinch I could always irrigate with sulfur water and drink it after it gasses off if I ever have a failure of treatment system but Iron could be a big problem in the pool even for short periods of time.
5. Are there any other systems that might be practical other than whole house RO (super expensive).

I'd appreciate your thoughts/comments on any of this, especially my rationale and decision in item 4.

Thanks much!

Chris

Moved to SW of Houston in 2009 and the smell of sulfur made me gag just tuning on the water tap. The neighborhood is on several wells put in by the developer. Add to that the water turned white T-shirts the color of tea, and there was black staining in the water tanks of all the toilets. After much research and testing we found we had very high iron and manganese. We got a 2 tank system, first a tank with Filox for the high iron and manganese and then the water softener with brine tank. Smell gone, taste is tolerable, should have put in RO under kitchen sink but was going to remodel kitchen and then didn't. We used Filox as it was pretty much what there was that handled both. Then Katalox came out and now there is Katalox Light (Lite). Not sure about how they handle both iron and manganese. If I was staying in the house I think I would add the chlorine injection as I think it would help toilet holding tanks require less cleaning. I put in those chlorine pucks which do break down the plastic/rubber tank parts otherwise I think I get what's known as iron bacteria, developer skimped on everything, including the water treatment plant. I got alot of help and advice from the water softener forum @ terrylove dot com. They like you to do a complete test and are helpful and knowledgeable, similar to TFP.

 

[setsailsoon]

Moved to SW of Houston in 2009 and the smell of sulfur made me gag just tuning on the water tap. The neighborhood is on several wells put in by the developer. Add to that the water turned white T-shirts the color of tea, and there was black staining in the water tanks of all the toilets. After much research and testing we found we had very high iron and manganese. We got a 2 tank system, first a tank with Filox for the high iron and manganese and then the water softener with brine tank. Smell gone, taste is tolerable, should have put in RO under kitchen sink but was going to remodel kitchen and then didn't. We used Filox as it was pretty much what there was that handled both. Then Katalox came out and now there is Katalox Light (Lite). Not sure about how they handle both iron and manganese. If I was staying in the house I think I would add the chlorine injection as I think it would help toilet holding tanks require less cleaning. I put in those chlorine pucks which do break down the plastic/rubber tank parts otherwise I think I get what's known as iron bacteria, developer skimped on everything, including the water treatment plant. I got alot of help and advice from the water softener forum @ terrylove dot com. They like you to do a complete test and are helpful and knowledgeable, similar to TFP.

Taylor,

Great info, I used terrylove.com for invaluable help on my previous softener. Almost forgot about them. I'll see what they have to say. I'm tempted to look closer at chlorine injection but wife hates chlorine taste. I can tolerate it but don't like it either. We sailed for 6 years and made all our water with a solar powered RO water maker from sea water. Absolutely pristine water and ever since we've always used under sink RO for drinking water so that's a must for us. I'll see what terrylove has to say about katalox light and other choices.

Thanks much for the input!

Chris

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Peroxide might be an option for those that don’t like chlorine but it can a bit more expensive as I believe the peroxide dose is higher and the cost for concentrated peroxide (not the whimpy stuff you get in the pharmacy) is typically more than chlorine or permanganate.

 

[Taylor1584]

Taylor,

Great info, I used terrylove.com for invaluable help on my previous softener. Almost forgot about them. I'll see what they have to say. I'm tempted to look closer at chlorine injection but wife hates chlorine taste. I can tolerate it but don't like it either. We sailed for 6 years and made all our water with a solar powered RO water maker from sea water. Absolutely pristine water and ever since we've always used under sink RO for drinking water so that's a must for us. I'll see what terrylove has to say about katalox light and other choices.

Thanks much for the input!

Chris

Oh man, I really like the RO water from the sink tap. Be sure to plumb the RO to your refrigerator for clear ice cubes. I am doing that in a new to me house, plumbing to fridge and to separate ice maker. Please post what you end up doing, inquiring minds.....

 

[setsailsoon]

Oh man, I really like the RO water from the sink tap. Be sure to plumb the RO to your refrigerator for clear ice cubes. I am doing that in a new to me house, plumbing to fridge and to separate ice maker. Please post what you end up doing, inquiring minds.....

Yep we're hooked on it as well! I had the foundation designed with pvc conduit through the slab from the kitchen island sink to the back of the refrigerator for the RO supply to the fridge. I will friction fit caps on both ends with a messenger line inside just in case it's needed but they're 1.5 in diameter and all I need to pull through it is a 1/4 in tube. I'm minimizing any water supplies that run through the slab. What does go through the slab is going to be inside pvc so it's accessible in the future.

 

[setsailsoon]

Peroxide might be an option for those that don’t like chlorine but it can a bit more expensive as I believe the peroxide dose is higher and the cost for concentrated peroxide (not the whimpy stuff you get in the pharmacy) is typically more than chlorine or permanganate.

From everything I've read I certainly agree peroxide is superior. The cost is a little higher up front and there is the peroxide bill but neither seem to be astronomical. Part of the problem for me is peroxide supply. There are plenty of suppliers online but after covid I'm a little more concerned about availability of critical supplies. Storing for long period of time isn't practical because it degrades rather quickly. If I don't have peroxide I don't have usable water. If it wasn't for this I think peroxide is the best way to remove the maximum amount of iron or sulfur. But here's a thought. Suppose I bought a simple peroxide injector and small catalytic carbon filled cylinder to treat a slip stream of my pump discharge for the pool whenever needed. I think I need to prepare for a very gradual iron buildup in the pool since nothing takes it all out. When that happens I could do a standard acorbic acid treatment then run the iron removal system to get rid of it from solution. What do you think about this approach?

Chris

 

[setsailsoon]

Making progress every day now. Got one well finished down to 140'. Looks like it's a pretty good well. Easily produced 25 gpm for extended test. There were several zones less than 90' loaded with iron. This has some sulfur but zero iron. Test results tomorrow but I ran my test kits results for pH ~7.8-8.0 and Hach total hardness 9 gr/gal. Well driller did over half the wells in this community including my neighbor's house. He says it's about 3-4 ppm S. Next well tomorrow and my dissolved oxygen test will be here too.

Chris

 

[JoyfulNoise]

The sulfur is unfortunate but mostly unavoidable where you are. Florida is essentially one big giant swamp so there’s no getting away from the decaying organic matter creating “interesting” water issues. I wouldn’t expect that there’s any DO in your ground water. If sulfur is present, then that means you have either anaerobic bacteria using an iron/sulfur cycle for cellular energy production or you have anaerobic decay of organic matter. Any oxygen present would convert iron to iron oxide and hydrogen sulfide to sulfates. But you never know … Florida water is interesting at times ….

 

[setsailsoon]

Finished the second well today. Final measured depth of each well is 146'. Flow is awesome measured 25 gpm (max speed on the test pump). Crystal clear, zero iron, slight H2S - no test yet but well driller says it's 3-4 ppm. I will pump one well only until we're done with construction. All of the closest neighbors except 1 use catalytic carbon with air injection followed with a standard water softener resin. So I think I'll try to find a used catalytic carbon filter to test it out and if that doesn't pan out I'll add a cu ft of Katalox and see how that works.

I'm also looking into trucked in water for first pool fill. Can't find anything available yet that's any better than treated well water. There is apparently a rental RO unit on a trailer that I can try to hunt down. I've seen these in smaller chemical plants to make boiler feed water for steam production and they work pretty well. But never heard of this for residential. Has anybody used this service in S Florida?

Chris

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Better to off gas as much H2S as possible rather than oxidize it. You can get elemental sulfur precipitation but you can also get sulfate formation which isn’t technically bad but it’s not good either. Sounds like you have a good plan going forward for a clean water source …. Now you just need a pool

 

[setsailsoon]

Better to off gas as much H2S as possible rather than oxidize it. You can get elemental sulfur precipitation but you can also get sulfate formation which isn’t technically bad but it’s not good either. Sounds like you have a good plan going forward for a clean water source …. Now you just need a pool

So are the sulfates soluble and pass through the softener?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

So are the sulfates soluble and pass through the softener?

The “sulfur” in your well comes from hydrogen sulfide (H2S) gas. Depending on the oxidation process used it can either be oxidized to elemental sulfur (S) which is completely insoluble in water or it can be oxidized further to sulfate (SO4) which is highly soluble in water. Once it becomes sulfate, there’s no easy way to filter it out except through distillation or reverse osmosis. Sulfates are bad for concrete and SWG cell plates but at the minor levels found in your water it won’t be an issue.

 

[setsailsoon]

Finally some real construction progress. This week we had the excavation contractor in to cut and compact the pad in prep for concrete foundation work. All the soil borings showed great soil down at least 5' so all they had to do was cut off the vegetation l layer then wheel roll it to 95%. They finished work yesterday and my geotech company texted that I met the requirement early today. Here's the progress today showing the pad with a sunset view over the pool to the lake behind we hope to have later this year:



Here's the construction equipment ready to start cutting footers for the beams next week as well as the lay down area marked for steel delivery later today:

 

[kimkats]

oh yeah! Now you are cooking!