Pool Deck Rebar or no Rebar

[duraleigh]

Leaving room open for some interpretation, we are all saying several versions or "takes" of virtually the same thing in this thread......all of which are reasonably compatible with one another.

My point is let's be sure not to manufacture an artifical escalation of disagreement when, in reality, there is very little disagreement.

Lot's of smilies are the order of the day.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[carolina pool]

Duraleigh,
Sorry about the crack about the paver cracks. Pavers are a great option for patios and walkways. They are very suited to DIY applications because they are not as sensitive to time, conditions and skill during application and more forgiving when mistakes are made. The six inch gravel base they are set on fundamentally performs the same benifits as it does for poured concrete. How they look and feel is of great importance to each individuals choice. From a functional aspect I would promote a more continous, smoother, impermiable sructural surface for a pool patio.

bk406,
Strucural problems usually turn into cosmetic issues. Cracking, crazing, settling and heaving will eventually create cosmetic issues. Charges range from 7.00 to 12 per sq ft depending on conditions, volume and finish. The conditions are tougher in your climate and would cost more to offer the same warranty.

tsunami,
You might have had a toe footing that needed a deeper joint or if it was a sawcut joint they stopped short of the needed depth because of a drain or some other obstruction. There is a reason it veered off.

Huskyridor,
Thanks Kelly, taking care of the details makes it easier to get the final payment and is better on the bottom line if your not going for volume. It would be almost impossible to maintain those standards if we subbed out the patios. The guys hate me for pouring such a stiff mix but its worth it when I show a potential customer a patio thats 10 years old without cracks that I have to make excuses for.

Polyvue,
If you have soils high in sand and gravel content with low silt and clay, compaction and heaving issues are not as important. However we did a country club in Pinehurst which is pure "sugar sand" and the engineers required a 2 inch clay blanket on top of the subgrade for the pool and patio. They also used the same process to build the roads.

In general: Most concrete is not poured under laboratory conditions and if you look hard enough there is a flaw somewhere on every job. Travertiine marble is marble with flaws and attractive because of those flaws. Like fingerprints every brick is different.

Thanks

 

[polyvue]

If you have soils high in sand and gravel content with low silt and clay, compaction and heaving issues are not as important. However we did a country club in Pinehurst which is pure "sugar sand" and the engineers required a 2 inch clay blanket on top of the subgrade for the pool and patio. They also used the same process to build the roads.

My report on practices I've seen in my area in no way should be construed as a criticism of your experience or high standards... tout au contraire, would that I had your documented regimen handy that sultry July day when the building super and I were discussing the pour on my deck. Since just about every decision (change request) made regarding my pool build was priced at $1000 (give or take a dollar) I would have gladly parted with another grand to have had them do it the right way!

. . . c r a c k !


For duraleigh: :-D :lol: :-D

 

[tsunami]

From a functional aspect I would promote a more continous, smoother, impermiable sructural surface for a pool patio.

One of the main reasons why we decided on concrete decking was that a lot of the time we'd be walking on it with bare feet. So we went with a medium broom finish. It's smooth on the feet, and not too slippery when wet. We're happy with it, but...

It's just so disappointing to see it crack after spending all that money, and after all that prep work on over 2400 sq. ft.(we also did one side of the house).

tsunami,
You might have had a toe footing that needed a deeper joint or if it was a sawcut joint they stopped short of the needed depth because of a drain or some other obstruction. There is a reason it veered off.

One of the guys I was working with today is a concrete finisher, so I told him about the wayward cracks. He said that it's probably due to a rock. He said that when the finisher cuts the joint, if he runs into a rock, he needs to remove it, but what most of them do (himself included) is tamp it down and then continue cutting the joint. When the crack develops, it hits that rock and detours off the joint. Who knows what caused it, but even with a well experienced crew, it still happened.

 

[bk406]

Wow. 2400 sq ft deck would run about $50,000 to do in pavers!

For the record, i was going to go with stamped colored concrete. I saw my neighbors concrete after 4 years and it didnt look all that great compared to my other neighbors paver pool deck. We bit the bullet and did the pavers. It was about double to cost, but we like the look. And. if you ever had a leak under the deck,its easier to fix and put back the pavers than concrete. But, they are kinda pricey!

 

[Guest]

Wow. 2400 sq ft deck would run about $50,000 to do in pavers!

I pay $6.00 a square foot for pavers (includes prep, sand and labor and material) and pass the cost on to my customers. Add a dollar if you want road base beneath the sand. That puts a 2,400 square foot pool deck on sand come in at $14,400.00.

My paver installer is the best around, very honest and very good! 2,400 square feet would be a small job for him, but he will do them all, big or small.

Some of these guys are still gouging for pavers

 

[bk406]

Wow. How can you charge 6 bucks for materials AND install? What about all the cuts required? Cost of labor for all that? The materials alone cost more than 6 bucks. Most around here charge 15-20 bucks a sq ft installed. Includes materials and labor.

My unilock pavers were 5 bucks just for the paver itself.

 

[Guest]

Wow. How can you charge 6 bucks for materials AND install? What about all the cuts required? Cost of labor for all that? The materials alone cost more than 6 bucks. Most around here charge 15-20 bucks a sq ft installed. Includes materials and labor.

My unilock pavers were 5 bucks just for the paver itself.

And make a profit

Sounds like you are paying retail. I like AckerStone pavers (8,000 psi strength and lots of options on colors and sizes), and my installer uses them quite a bit. Once you get it down (and buy the pavers at a realistic price!) it is possible to do the work and make a profit, even with the cuts and the wet edge curb to lock it all together!

I do remember when the cost was more that concrete, but those days are over (at least around here). If I had my choice I would never do concrete again!

 

[bk406]

Not sure about that brand of paver. Unilock are about 5-6 bucks depending on the paver. Thats pretty much cost too. If your guys can make money at 6 bucks a sq ft, and stay in business more power to you I just dont see how you can make money at that price.

Your workmans comp and liability insurance must be cheaper out there too?

 

[Henry Porter]

The reason for us choosing concrete over pavers is that I hope that will mean less dirt in the pool. Perhaps I somewhat exaggerated the benefits from that. But my experience(whitch is limited to the 1000 sq ft I have laid at home and at my parents house) is that you can't get away from that sooner or later end up with weed and grass in the grouts. Brooming the area often slow down that process, but you will face it eventually, atleast areas close by grass.

Laying pavers is as easy as it looks, and they lay solid even with our weather conditions if you are careful with ground preparations. I dug out all the dirt and replaced it with 10" off well drained/compacted material and upon that 3" of sand. After you have laid the area run it over with a small compacter(100kg) that do the trick and you will have a surface flat as a wooden floor and at the same time get most of the joints filled with sand.
The cost here for pavers compared to concrete would I estimate to be less than half, if you buy a high quality stone( 2,5" thick). A stone like the one in the pic below at a reseller is around 2,4-2,9usd /sqft depending on colour.

And I just as Bruce do I also make profit on my work. I look up labour cost for random contractor and charge my wife just a tiny bit less :lol: [attachment=0:3a2qv86d]pavers.jpg[/attachment:3a2qv86d]

 

[huskyrider]

I look up labour cost for random contractor and charge my wife just a tiny bit less :lol:

LMAO!!!

Your going to have to teach me how to do this, mine makes me pay for materials, manpower, and then for the food and drink too!!!
Everytime I work at home I lose bigtime.

It's why my backyard looks so bad, I can't afford it anymore. LOL!!!

See ya,
Kelly

 

[bk406]

The reason for us choosing concrete over pavers is that I hope that will mean less dirt in the pool.

Actually that hasnt been a problem. I dont use regular sand for the joints. I use a sand that has a polymer in it. You pour out the sand on the bricks, then sweep it in like regualr sand. The last step is to wet it down with a hose and let it set up. The polymeric sand gets hard and doesnt brush out like regular sand does. I also dont lay pavers on a sand bed either. I prefer crushed stone dust. It doesn't move around like sand does. lay the pavers on 4 inches of compacted stone dust layed over compacted processed gravel (3/4" stone mixed with screened fill, about a foot thick). So processed gravel, stone dust,and pavers with polymeric sand. That's what Unilock recommends for a good job. Concrete with fiber runs about $4 a sq ft installed with a broom finish. Colored stamped concrete runs $8-12 a sq ft and a paver job runs $15-20 a sq ft depending on materials used and cuts. A square deck runs a little less, a deck around a kidney or free form pool a little more depending on the cuts. Cantaliver coping made out of concrete runs around $12 a lineal foot. Cut stone like limestone, flag, etc bullnosed and cantalivered mortored to the bond beam is ~$30 a lineal foot depending on the cuts, the type of stone used and the pool shape. Bullnose paver coping run a little less, little more, again depending on the number of cuts. Less cuts, wider joints, less money.

If Simicrintz has guys to do it for 6 bucks, I could fly them up here 1st class, put them in a hotel for a week, and still make money

 

[Guest]

If Simicrintz has guys to do it for 6 bucks, I could fly them up here 1st class, put them in a hotel for a week, and still make money

Let me know where and when to send them! From the sound of this, 2010 is gonna be a good year :-D :-D

 

[Brentr]

Guys somebody is getting ripped off for paver installs :-D My PB suggested pavers because it was actually cheaper to have this installed. He put a lot of limestone/ gravel down, compacted it and then put the pavers on that. He promised me that after the pavers were installed you could run a mac truck over them. While we did not go with expensive flagstone pavers and I am glad as we have a more durable paver made by Tremron. Like I said our pool with everything and 1800sq ft of pavers installed cost 21k. The heat pump I bought later and installed myself and the pool cage cost 6.5k. Look at the thread in my signature. Hope this helps

 

[bk406]

You ENTIRE pool and deck was 21k?

But you are in Florida. Most likely a pool builder on every corner. I live in New England. People cant work that cheap here. Workers comp insurance, liability insurance cost money, and you cant pay guys 10 bucks or less an hour either

Still, even in Florida, no way your builder made any money. He couldn't have.
BTW, how much is a yard of concrete down there?

 

[Brentr]

You got it, that includes Aquarite SWG with t-15 cell, 1.5 hp sta-rite pump, sheer descent, IG fountain, 2 external pool features, 2 inch plumbing, 6 pentair never lube valves, polaris cleaner and 300w light, 100am sub panel, intermatic manual timer, lifetime warranty pebble finish, 8inch 5000psi concrete walls, special concrete for 12 inch footers, 1800sq pavers . Concrete here is very expensive and to besides concrete WILL crack. I later upgraded the light to an intellibrite, bought it off ebay new with a warranty for $175 plus shipping. I saw all the material costs, believe My PB made a bunch of money and we were swimming in 21 days, could have been 16 days however the pool cage man was running behind. Permits only cost $100. I also know what the electrician charged and the paver people charged. Not sure what the going rate is elsewhere however I am glad to be living in Florida. :-D Look at our pool being built in the signature

 

[bk406]

All i can say is labor must be dirt cheap.

 

[polyvue]

Not sure what the going rate is elsewhere however I am glad to be living in Florida.

Brent, for the price you paid I should have had mine build in your backyard, then dug up and shipped FOB to my address! Would still have saved thousands. My permit cost $1,450 (in 2007).

 

[Guest]

You got it, that includes Aquarite SWG with t-15 cell, 1.5 hp sta-rite pump, sheer descent, IG fountain, 2 external pool features, 2 inch plumbing, 6 pentair never lube valves, polaris cleaner and 300w light, 100am sub panel, intermatic manual timer, lifetime warranty pebble finish, 8inch 5000psi concrete walls, special concrete for 12 inch footers, 1800sq pavers . Concrete here is very expensive and to besides concrete WILL crack. I later upgraded the light to an intellibrite, bought it off ebay new with a warranty for $175 plus shipping. I saw all the material costs, believe My PB made a bunch of money and we were swimming in 21 days, could have been 16 days however the pool cage man was running behind. Permits only cost $100. I also know what the electrician charged and the paver people charged. Not sure what the going rate is elsewhere however I am glad to be living in Florida. :-D Look at our pool being built in the signature

The shotcrete here alone would have eaten up half your budget! Man, I'm glad I don't build in Florida :lol:

 

[DBfan187]

Yeah they're cheap here. One builder here is doing custom gunite pools & water features for $16K.