Pool Plaster Start-up Alternative

[onBalance]

Orenda Technologies has recently unveiled a new start-up program that is somewhat similar to the onBalance Bicarb start-up process.

Instead of adding sodium bicarbonate, Orenda adds calcium (calcium chloride) to low calcium tap water while filling brand-new plaster pools, which also like the Bicarb start-up, prevents the formation of plaster dust. We at onBalance have received numerous communications asking us if this Calcium program is compatible with, or a viable alternative to the Bicarbonate Start-up Method that also prevents plaster dust. The answer is a qualified yes.

The Orenda start-up program can, in certain situations, be an effective alternative to the Bicarb Start-up program which the onBalance team has been promoting for many years. It follows closely the principle of adjusting “aggressive” fill or tap water to a positive CSI number, preferably to about +0.5 for the filling of new plaster pools.

It is known that aggressive fill water (any negative CSI) is detrimental to new and vulnerable plaster finishes, including quartz and pebble, and can lead to plaster discoloration and deterioration problems developing afterwards.

Adding either calcium chloride or sodium bicarbonate to soft fill water will increase the CSI and will help prevent plaster dust and damage to new and (slightly) unhardened pool plaster. Under magnification, the plaster surface remains smooth, dense and hard, without etching caused by aggressive fill water. That in turn, will help plaster surfaces last and look good for 20 years or more instead of just 5 to 10 years before they start looking worn, deteriorated, and stained.

Both the Bicarb and Orenda “Calcium addition” start-ups work by achieving a combined calcium and alkalinity content of at least 400 ppm (minimum) and up to 500 ppm of the fill water, and an CSI of about +0.3 to +0.5. It is also important for the pH to be maintained below 8.2.

Orenda also claims that adding their chelating product SC-1000 during the start-up process helps prevent potential calcium scaling issues.

The immediate visible evidence that these start-up programs are superior to the NPC or Traditional Start-up is by observing that there isn’t any plaster dust developing once the pool is full of water as is sometimes seen, even with quartz and pebble finishes. The Traditional and NPC start-up program doesn’t balance the fill water until a day to two after the pool is full of water. That is too late. The damage has already occurred.

Click on the following video links to see the positive results of the Orenda start-up program:
Orenda No Dust Startup - Orenda Technologies
https://orendatech.com/varx-startup-tank/

As with most things, there are always variables to consider. If you are in an area where the calcium hardness level does not generally increase in your pools, then the Calcium addition start-up program would be a viable program to follow. However, if you are in an area where the calcium level does increase, and you want to avoid increasing it with chemical additions, then in our opinion, using the Bicarb start-up is preferred. Lastly, having an adequate amount of alkalinity is crucial to "carbonating" the plaster surface.

Click here to see the onBalance Bicarbonate Start-up page:
The Bicarb Start – Pool Help

 

[JoyfulNoise]

In the start up tank video, he did not really practice good water testing technique. When adding the R-0010 and R-0011L, his bottles were at a very steep angle to the test tube....that’s not proper dropper technique. He did hold ther R-0012 vertical to the tube so he gets a 50% on testing technique....

Good to know the industry is taking notice of these issues.

A lot of pebble installations call for the pool to sit there for hours on end and then to have an acid wash hours later or the next day to expose the aggregate. If one wanted to startup a Pebble installation, would you suggest first using a bicarbonate startup and then later using a zero alkalinity treatment? It seems like plasterers leave a lot of plaster cream on the surface and that only a really aggressive acid wash could take that off.

 

[bdavis466]

Orenda Technologies has recently unveiled a new start-up program that is somewhat similar to the onBalance Bicarb start-up process.

Instead of adding sodium bicarbonate, Orenda suggests adding calcium (calcium chloride) to low calcium tap water while filling brand-new plaster pools, which also like the Bicarb start-up, prevents the formation of plaster dust. We at onBalance have received numerous communications asking us if this calcium program is compatible with, or a viable alternative to the Bicarbonate Start-up Method that also prevents plaster dust. The answer is yes.

The Orenda start-up program can, in certain situations, be an effective alternative to the Bicarb Start-up program which the onBalance team has been promoting for many years. It follows closely the principle of adjusting “aggressive” fill or tap water to a positive LSI number, preferably to about +0.5 for the filling of new plaster pools.

It is known that aggressive fill water (any negative CSI) is detrimental to new and vulnerable plaster finishes, including quartz and pebble, and can lead to plaster discoloration and deterioration problems developing afterwards.

Adding either calcium chloride or sodium bicarbonate to soft fill water will increase the LSI and will help prevent plaster dust and damage to new and (slightly) unhardened pool plaster. Under magnification, the plaster surface remains smooth, dense and hard, without etching caused by aggressive fill water. That in turn, will help plaster surfaces last and look good for 20 years or more instead of just 5 to 10 years before they start looking worn, deteriorated, and stained.

Both the Bicarb and Orenda “Calcium addition” start-ups work by achieving a combined calcium and alkalinity content of at least 400 ppm (minimum) and up to 500 ppm of the fill water, and an LSI of about +0.3 to +0.5. It is also important for the pH to be maintained below 8.2.

Orenda also claims that adding their chelating product SC-1000 during the start-up process helps prevent potential calcium scaling issues.
The immediate visible evidence that these start-up programs are superior to the NPC or Traditional Start-up is by observing that there isn’t any plaster dust developing once the pool is full of water as is sometimes seen, even with quartz and pebble finishes. The Traditional start-up program and the NPC doesn’t consider balancing the fill water until a day to two after the pool is full of water. That is too late. The damage has already occurred.

Click on the following video links to see the positive results of the Orenda start-up program:
https://orendatech.com/orenda-no-dust-startup/
https://orendatech.com/varx-startup-tank/

As with most things, there are always variables to consider. If you are in an area where the calcium hardness level does not generally increase in your pools, then the Calcium addition start-up program would be a viable program to follow. However, if you are in an area where the calcium level does increase, and you want to avoid increasing it with chemical additions, then in our opinion, using the Bicarb start-up is preferred.

Click here to see the onBalance Bicarbonate Start-up page:
http://www.poolhelp.com/home/onbalance-research/education/the-bicarb-start/

On the topic of the chelating/sequestrant agents - have you ever looked in to seeing if the very thing that inhibits scale also inhibits the effectiveness of the +CSI/LSI during the startup?

I see no benefit to the Orenda method since adding calcium can cause a whole slew of issues if not done correctly, that and it can't be removed once added which is very problematic in arid climates where rising calcium levels are already an issue. Calcium is also significantly more expensive than Sodium Bicarb...

In the start up tank video, he did not really practice good water testing technique. When adding the R-0010 and R-0011L, his bottles were at a very steep angle to the test tube....that’s not proper dropper technique. He did hold ther R-0012 vertical to the tube so he gets a 50% on testing technique....

Good to know the industry is taking notice of these issues.

A lot of pebble installations call for the pool to sit there for hours on end and then to have an acid wash hours later or the next day to expose the aggregate. If one wanted to startup a Pebble installation, would you suggest first using a bicarbonate startup and then later using a zero alkalinity treatment? It seems like plasterers leave a lot of plaster cream on the surface and that only a really aggressive acid wash could take that off.

I think a lot of the damage is prevented since the plaster has so long to cure out of the water but that can also lead to shrinkage cracks...

A zero alkalinity treatment later probably wouldn't expose enough of the aggregate (at least not uniformly).

My go-to technique for pebble and quartz finishes is to finish troweling, wait 2-4 hours and polish the entire thing with diamond pads on weed whackers then fill with bicarb startup...no acid wash needed

 

[JoyfulNoise]

On the topic of the chelating/sequestrant agents - have you ever looked in to seeing if the very thing that inhibits scale also inhibits the effectiveness of the +CSI/LSI during the startup?

I see no benefit to the Orenda method since adding calcium can cause a whole slew of issues if not done correctly, that and it can't be removed once added which is very problematic in arid climates where rising calcium levels are already an issue. Calcium is also significantly more expensive than Sodium Bicarb...

In the case of a sequestering agent, apparent calcium hardness is going to decrease. However, the calcium is still present, it is simply locked up by the sequestering agent. As soon as the sequestering agent is exposed to chlorine, it is going to breakdown from oxidation and release the chelated calcium. So, unfortunately, calcium concentration and CSI become a moving target. There are some sequestering agents that have good tolerance to chlorine exposure, PBTC is one of them. Unfortunately, 99% of the sequestering agents out there are HEDP and that is known to breakdown easily under chlorine oxidation.

I think a lot of the damage is prevented since the plaster has so long to cure out of the water but that can also lead to shrinkage cracks...

A zero alkalinity treatment later probably wouldn't expose enough of the aggregate (at least not uniformly).

My go-to technique for pebble and quartz finishes is to finish troweling, wait 2-4 hours and polish the entire thing with diamond pads on weed whackers then fill with bicarb startup.

My next pool....I am so having you all over “my next pool” ....

 

[bdavis466]

my next pool....i am so having you all over “my next pool” ....

Retired!!!!

 

[JoyfulNoise]

retired!!!!

When I see the corpse in a 6ft pine box being lowered into the earth, yeah, then you’re retired.....until then, don’t get rid of the weed-whacker just yet....plus, you know my job site will be rocking with sweet tunes (I think you know my music tastes well enough), good beers, and LOTS of smoked meats. We can kidnap Wanger and make him do all sweaty work while we “supervise”....

 

[bdavis466]

In the case of a sequestering agent, apparent calcium hardness is going to decrease. However, the calcium is still present, it is simply locked up by the sequestering agent. As soon as the sequestering agent is exposed to chlorine, it is going to breakdown from oxidation and release the chelated calcium. So, unfortunately, calcium concentration and CSI become a moving target. There are some sequestering agents that have good tolerance to chlorine exposure, PBTC is one of them. Unfortunately, 99% of the sequestering agents out there are HEDP and that is known to breakdown easily under chlorine oxidation.

Then that's just other tip in the direction of bicarb then...

The alkalinity gets measured in ppm CaCO3 but there isn't actually calcium present to sequester, other that what was already in the water correct?

I'm my eyes you get the +CSI/LSI with minimal chance of scale and the silly temperate swings calcium can create?

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When I see the corpse in a 6ft pine box being lowered into the earth, yeah, then you’re retired.....until then, don’t get rid of the weed-whacker just yet....plus, you know my job site will be rocking with sweet tunes (I think you know my music tastes well enough), good beers, and LOTS of smoked meats. We can kidnap Wanger and make him do all sweaty work while we “supervise”....

You know I'm in... I've retired 4 other times already

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Then that's just other tip in the direction of bicarb then...

The alkalinity gets measured in ppm CaCO3 but there isn't actually calcium present to sequester, other that what was already in the water correct?

I'm my eyes you get the +CSI/LSI with minimal chance of scale and the silly temperate swings calcium can create?

So the TA gets confusing because it’s really only the carbonate part of it that matters for CSI. The units used to describe the TA (that is, [CaCO3]) are simply scaled to a known chemical species that’s capable of reacting with a strong acid titrant (it could be scaled to any known base). So since every chemist knows how much 0.1N sulfuric acid it takes to neutralize 1 mol of calcium carbonate then, when looking at an unknown sample of water, you add the acid titrant to it until you cross the appropriate pH value and you can then compare that to other samples and standards. CaCO3 is like the inch marks on your tape measure in your tool box - as long as everyone knows what an inch is, you can all talk the same language when laying pipe....

But yes, the TA doesn’t actually refer to any calcium added. It’s important only for the carbonate portion because that excess carbonate is what is responsible for carbonation of the plaster surface.

 

[MinerJason]

My go-to technique for pebble and quartz finishes is to finish troweling, wait 2-4 hours and polish the entire thing with diamond pads on weed whackers then fill with bicarb startup...no acid wash needed

I'm having my pool re-plastered with pebble soon, and have talked the plaster contractor into not doing an acid wash, and instead allowing me to essentially do what you're describing. Didn't know people actually did that, but just imagined it producing a smoother surface without the issues inherent with an acid wash. I essentially was looking for a polished "hydrazzo" type finish, but using harder, more durable, and less reactive aggregate.

The bicarb start up makes so much sense to me. As part of my job I oversee a lot of strength testing of rocks, as well as some shotcrete and concrete. ASTM standards require us to cure the shotcrete/concrete samples submerged in a weak calcium hydroxide solution to ensure there's no leaching. The reduction in material strength that occurs if the samples are cured in aggressive water rather than the lime solution is more significant than you'd think.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I'm having my pool re-plastered with pebble soon, and have talked the plaster contractor into not doing an acid wash, and instead allowing me to essentially do what you're describing. Didn't know people actually did that, but just imagined it producing a smoother surface without the issues inherent with an acid wash. I essentially was looking for a polished "hydrazzo" type finish, but using harder, more durable, and less reactive aggregate.

The bicarb start up makes so much sense to me. As part of my job I oversee a lot of strength testing of rocks, as well as some shotcrete and concrete. ASTM standards require us to cure the shotcrete/concrete samples submerged in a weak calcium hydroxide solution to ensure there's no leaching. The reduction in material strength that occurs if the samples are cured in aggressive water rather than the lime solution is more significant than you'd think.

Rock strength testing .... well, since we’re neighbors please come by my house some time as I have a bunch of rocks you’re welcome to haul away and do all the testing you like on them .... just bring a jackhammer and a crane ...

 

[MinerJason]

Rock strength testing .... well, since we’re neighbors please come by my house some time as I have a bunch of rocks you’re welcome to haul away and do all the testing you like on them .... just bring a jackhammer and a crane ...

Hah! I'll be right over. Can never have too many boulders for landscaping projects...

 

[bdavis466]

I'm having my pool re-plastered with pebble soon, and have talked the plaster contractor into not doing an acid wash, and instead allowing me to essentially do what you're describing. Didn't know people actually did that, but just imagined it producing a smoother surface without the issues inherent with an acid wash. I essentially was looking for a polished "hydrazzo" type finish, but using harder, more durable, and less reactive aggregate.

The bicarb start up makes so much sense to me. As part of my job I oversee a lot of strength testing of rocks, as well as some shotcrete and concrete. ASTM standards require us to cure the shotcrete/concrete samples submerged in a weak calcium hydroxide solution to ensure there's no leaching. The reduction in material strength that occurs if the samples are cured in aggressive water rather than the lime solution is more significant than you'd think.

Be prepared to put in some work and the diamond pads are pricey and don't last all that long. The trick is to get the water flow just right to create a slurry. Too much water just washes all that lubricating cream away and too little will smoke the disks.

Aquavations makes a pressure washer attachment called the Triton that works really well. Perhaps you can get your hands on one

http://www.aquavations.com/products/triton/

I felt that pebble finishes are absolute garbage. Overly priced for a surface that feels rougher than the oldest worn out and pitted plaster. Plaster is super smooth when its new but it doesn't stay that way for long. Polishing pebble has repaired my dislike but its just another added expense to an already expensive product.

The only trouble now is what to do when the pebbles inevitably fall out of the matrix...

Then there's AquaBright which is competitive at this price-point but not really available in all areas and still likely more expensive. I did one pool where the owner told me he wanted as smooth as I could possibly get it and man it was smooth....then people started slipping. You just can't win.

 

[MinerJason]

Be prepared to put in some work and the diamond pads are pricey and don't last all that long. The trick is to get the water flow just right to create a slurry. Too much water just washes all that lubricating cream away and too little will smoke the disks.

Aquavations makes a pressure washer attachment called the Triton that works really well. Perhaps you can get your hands on one

http://www.aquavations.com/products/triton/

Thanks.

I've got an older wet grinder/polisher that I was planning on using, as well as a pretty good stock of pads (most of which are finer grit than I'll need for the pool). I've seen the Triton's and they look really nice, but they're also a bit pricey. I'm assuming water flow control will be a lot more tricky on the vertical pool walls than it was with all of the flat surface grinding/polishing I've done, but I'm sure I'll get the hang of it around the same time I'm finished polishing the pool.

 

[bdavis466]

Thanks.

I've got an older wet grinder/polisher that I was planning on using, as well as a pretty good stock of pads (most of which are finer grit than I'll need for the pool). I've seen the Triton's and they look really nice, but they're also a bit pricey. I'm assuming water flow control will be a lot more tricky on the vertical pool walls than it was with all of the flat surface grinding/polishing I've done, but I'm sure I'll get the hang of it around the same time I'm finished polishing the pool.

You're gonna like how it turns out

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I’ll let you chip out, replaster, and polish my spa for practice....beers on me.

 

[MinerJason]

I felt that pebble finishes are absolute garbage. Overly priced for a surface that feels rougher than the oldest worn out and pitted plaster. Plaster is super smooth when its new but it doesn't stay that way for long. Polishing pebble has repaired my dislike but its just another added expense to an already expensive product.

The only trouble now is what to do when the pebbles inevitably fall out of the matrix...

What I really wanted to do was use really rough, angular aggregate, in three different sizes, and then polish it smooth. The rough surfaces and angular pieces would have an exponentially better bond, and therefore be much less likely to fall out of the matrix. It would also result in a stronger material with much less of the weak cement matrix exposed. Basically like a terrazo floor inside a pool. But I wasn't able to talk any of the local plastering companies into such an experiment. Almost had one of them convinced, but he backed out just as I was about to order the materials. Another benefit to the rough angular aggregate would be reduced cost. I was able to source all the materials for less than half of what the local pool supply place charges the plastering contractors for the Stonescapes aggregate, and that was paying public retail prices.

Maybe I should just buy an old plaster pump, get a few plasterers to moonlight for a day to help me with mixing and troweling, and then sell the pump when I'm done.

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I’ll let you chip out, replaster, and polish my spa for practice....beers on me.

Hah! That's half tempting, but I've had more than enough practice with chipping out plaster. And I have to warn you, I have expensive taste in beer.

 

[bdavis466]

What size aggregate?

I know a guy that sells Pebbles to all of the plaster installers in the area. He told me that SCP even buys from him on occasion.

 

[MinerJason]

What size aggregate?

I know a guy that sells Pebbles to all of the plaster installers in the area. He told me that SCP even buys from him on occasion.

Plan was to use #7, #8, & #10. Was looking into buying from Turley in Mesa. They make a lot of custom pebble blends for some of the pool builders in the Phoenix area, and a lot of plaster companies in the area also use their abalone. Was looking at their products geared towards the terrazzo installers rather than their smooth rounded pool pebble products though.

 

[PoolguyinCT]

MinerJason - when did you scrap idea of placing your own finish? A good idea IMO..

I’ll send you something our buddy wrote in shell inspection.