Question about using the Taylor K-1725 kit

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anthonypool89

anthonypool89

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Aug 26, 2016
1,192
Berks County, PA
Hi,

I also posted this over on the water chemistry part of the forum, but thought it probably should be here as well.

For those who have used this kit, does anyone have trouble determine the biguanide level? There is a very subtle color change that is supposed to take place when adding the Biguanide Titrating Reagent (color is supposed to change from light blue to pinkish purple). The first time I used the kit I was able to get a (hopefully) accurate reading, but in using it again today I couldn't get the color to change. I was up to as many as 30 drops of reagent with still no change - which is a bit ridiculous given that this amount of reagent would already indicate a level of at least 150. First test showed a reading of 15 (color changed at 3 drops) and then I brought the level up to the recommended 50 ppm.

In between the two tests, the only thing that changed is my having added 2 other products to the water: Ahhsome (designed to help with mold/slime issues) and Aqua Finesse Water Tablets. I'm wondering if in some way either of these products is interfering with and preventing me from getting a reading?

Thanks for any suggestions.....
 
Call up Taylor’s customer support line. They can likely hook you up with a chemist there to help. It’s entirely possible there could an interference.
 
JoyfulNoise said:
Call up Taylor’s customer support line. They can likely hook you up with a chemist there to help. It’s entirely possible there could an interference.
Click to expand...

Thanks Matt. I chatted with them at some length today. The guy really didn't seem to have any idea other than agreeing with me that the additional products I'm using could indeed interfere. (Don't you just love it when support people simply agree with what you're saying :) He suggested that perhaps the level was very high (very much doubt this....why would it be?) and that I just didn't titrate enough to achieve the color change. So, I'm fairly certain the guy I talked to was not a chemist or even all that knowledgeable. Weird how it worked the first time and not the second. The only difference is having used the Ahhsome and Aqua Finesse, so if the problem continues then it seems to point to either or both of those products causing problems with the test. If it is chemical interference, how unfortunate. It's an expensive kit to only be able to do one test with.
 
The Ahh-some is going to have ABDAC algaecide (quaternary amine compound) which could interfere with the test by positively adding to the titrant drop count.

I forget exactly what the Aqua Finesse was but I believe it’s a sodium metasilicate compound that probably would not interfere in the test.

Perhaps you could call Taylor back and ask if it’s possible to forward your issue to their chemistry department. They might be willing to do that rather than connect you straight through. Customer Service exists primarily to keep the peasants at bay so that the royalty does not have to get their shoes dirty talking with the riffraff.
 
JoyfulNoise said:
The Ahh-some is going to have ABDAC algaecide (quaternary amine compound) which could interfere with the test by positively adding to the titrant drop count.

I forget exactly what the Aqua Finesse was but I believe it’s a sodium metasilicate compound that probably would not interfere in the test.

Perhaps you could call Taylor back and ask if it’s possible to forward your issue to their chemistry department. They might be willing to do that rather than connect you straight through. Customer Service exists primarily to keep the peasants at bay so that the royalty does not have to get their shoes dirty talking with the riffraff.
Click to expand...

LOL on the part I highlighted in bold!! I'll gladly check with them again. I definitely didn't get an 'educated' response from the guy I spoke with.

MSDS on the Aqua Finesse says it is sodium carbonate and disodium metasilicate. Interesting about the Ahhsome. Wonder by what amount (perhaps exponential even!) the algaecide in that stuff would increase the titration requirement. I figured I was just wasting the reagent once I got close to 30. Plus, it gets me no further along with knowing what the biguanide level is.
 
Matt,

The chemistry is a bit over my head, but thanks for doing this research. Is the nickel-nioxime colorimetric titration definitely the same method that is used in the Taylor kit? Presumably so, but just wondering.

Not sure what you mean by only being able to use Ahhsome after dosing the pool (?)

The Ahhsome is added once monthly. I added it close to a week prior to doing the test, so the unknown variable here is how long the effects of it will interfere with trying to do a test. How unfortunate that there turns out to be a conflict. The old domino effect. Given that the Ahhsome is supposed to be effective for a month, and then the next dose goes in, it seems that I'll never be able to get a biguanide reading as long as the pool has Ahhsome in it.

Is chem geek still around TFP at all?
 
Richard can be reached at his external email address. Feel free to email him and see what he says.

(you can use the @ link in his profile page)

As far as what Taylor uses for it’s testing, it’s not clear from their literature but, since the nioxime test is fairly standard quantatative chemistry, it’s a sure bet that is what they are using (or some variant of it). The high quaternary ammonium concentration is definitely going to interfere with any kind of titration testing of PHMB.

As for Ahh-some, stop using it. Then, after it has dissipated, use your biguanide kit to figure out what your worst-case-scenario daily PHMB loss rate is and that will tell you how much biguanide you need to add everyday. Then resume Ahh-some. Perhaps Ahh-some will be destroyed by some shock doses of hydrogen peroxide oxidizer...hard to know.
 
Matt,

I have been thinking about this, and also wondered if I should just not add Ahhsome next month. The unknown is how long the stuff stays in the water. For one thing, I'm wondering if I really need it IF regular and more accurate testing of PHMB and peroxide (and keeping the levels up of both) might be sufficient? Lots of variables involved here but, in theory at least, am I correct that if the peroxide level is not allowed to drop below the recommended range - shouldn't that prevent problems with biofilm build-up? Case in point.... my usual routine has been to add a maintenance dose of 1.5 quarts of peroxide weekly. I did that the past few seasons without really knowing if it was enough or not. However, the Taylor test today revealed that 1.5 quarts would not have brought up the tested level of 25 to where it should be. Instead, it needed a gallon to bring it to around the middle of the range. (I can see where I'm going to be using aLOT of oxidizer compared to in the past).

Was not able to find any external email link for Richard. The only contact info appears to be a private message, which of course is within TFP.
 
Richard checks his PMs occasionally. If you use the “external email” @ button in his profile, the TFP forum email system will send an email to his external address. He likely send you a PM back requesting your private email address.

Yes, this is the problem with Baquacil. Test strips are highly inaccurate and weekly dosing is not adequate. Your pool was likely seeing both low sanitizer AND low oxidizer levels which was allowing all of the bacterial and biofilm growth to occur. Just as in a chlorine pool, you need to test and dose very regularly. Chlorine pool owners typically dose liquid chlorine everyday. Since chlorine is both the sanitizer and oxidizer, it’s an easy process to test and dose one chemical (and do acid additions as-needed to correct pH).

You should certainly see what your sanitizer demand is. I bet it drops daily and that if you track it, you’ll see that waiting a week to dose the pool was probably too infrequent and not enough to keep the sanitizer at the proper level.



anthonypool89 said:
Matt,

I have been thinking about this, and also wondered if I should just not add Ahhsome next month. The unknown is how long the stuff stays in the water. For one thing, I'm wondering if I really need it IF regular and more accurate testing of PHMB and peroxide (and keeping the levels up of both) might be sufficient? Lots of variables involved here but, in theory at least, am I correct that if the peroxide level is not allowed to drop below the recommended range - shouldn't that prevent problems with biofilm build-up? Case in point.... my usual routine has been to add a maintenance dose of 1.5 quarts of peroxide weekly. I did that the past few seasons without really knowing if it was enough or not. However, the Taylor test today revealed that 1.5 quarts would not have brought up the tested level of 25 to where it should be. Instead, it needed a gallon to bring it to around the middle of the range. (I can see where I'm going to be using aLOT of oxidizer compared to in the past).

Was not able to find any external email link for Richard. The only contact info appears to be a private message, which of course is within TFP.
Click to expand...
 

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Matt,

I checked with chem people at both Taylor and the company that produces Ahhsome. They confirm the positive interference that you referred to. I'm told that no amount of titration drops will change the color (even if it did....what good what that do me since there would still be no way to gauge what the level is proportionate to how the test is supposed to work).

Just sent a PM to Richard....see if he has any additional suggestions. If not, I think your idea of stopping the Ahhsome to see what my biguanide level is sounds like the best way to proceed.

Keith
 
Good to know. You’re going to have to wait for the Ahh-Some to dissipate before you can use the titrating reagents.

Do you have any biguanide test strips? Do they react differently?

Based on the strong interference between the Ahh-some and the testing reagents, I would say that Ahh-some is not a good treatment regimen going forward. If you want to continue using Baquacil, then you need a way to test your chemical levels accurately. That is the most important step in any water management process - accurate and regular testing.
 
JoyfulNoise said:
Good to know. You’re going to have to wait for the Ahh-Some to dissipate before you can use the titrating reagents.

Do you have any biguanide test strips? Do they react differently?

Based on the strong interference between the Ahh-some and the testing reagents, I would say that Ahh-some is not a good treatment regimen going forward. If you want to continue using Baquacil, then you need a way to test your chemical levels accurately. That is the most important step in any water management process - accurate and regular testing.
Click to expand...

Good point...did not think to use a biguanide test strip before and after adding the Ahhsome to see what the difference might have been. Came across another kit...not sure how good this would be... Biguanide pH Test Kit - 7016 - - LaMotte Richard's concern is that I might not know if I'm measuring biguanide or ahhsome. I'm thinking that this kit might work since it doesn't do the same sort of colorimetric titration like the Taylor kit does. I have very little detail on it. Sent an email to a store that supposedly sells them, but chances are that they won't have any idea if it'll work or not. If this kit also uses bromophenol blue as a reagent, then I'm probably out of luck since the same interference would likely occur.
 
anthonypool89 said:
Good point...did not think to use a biguanide test strip before and after adding the Ahhsome to see what the difference might have been. Came across another kit...not sure how good this would be... Biguanide pH Test Kit - 7016 - - LaMotte Richard's concern is that I might not know if I'm measuring biguanide or ahhsome. I'm thinking that this kit might work since it doesn't do the same sort of colorimetric titration like the Taylor kit does. I have very little detail on it. Sent an email to a store that supposedly sells them, but chances are that they won't have any idea if it'll work or not. If this kit also uses bromophenol blue as a reagent, then I'm probably out of luck since the same interference would likely occur.
Click to expand...

I don’t think that test kit is any different than the chemistry used in test strips and so it is probably no more accurate than those would be. The positive interference of the quaternary amine algaecide would still be there. The seller likely knows nothing about the detailed chemistry; for that, you would need to contact LaMotte directly and speak to one of their technical personnel.
 
Richard's reply regarding this is.... It depends if the other kit is using the same dye. It is the dye that is interfered. The titration is what is selective about destroying biguanide, but the other kit doesn't titrate so if they use the same dye then both biguanide and ADBAC will combine with it and show blue. It all depends on what dye they are using. If they are using something that only reacts with biguanide and ADBAC then you'll be OK, but we don't know that yet.




​
 
I don’t disagree with Richard’s point. So you’ll have to contact LaMotte to see what they say. There are other types of biguanide tests out there where the biguanide reacts with a chemical and forms a precipitate then you measure the turbidity of the resulting cloudy solution or you filter out & dry the precipitate and weigh the resulting mixture. But all of those are highly specialized lab tests that would not be possible to perform by a residential pool owner.

Getting back to how you solve your problem, you could put some biguanide in a bucket (10 gallons let’s say) along with peroxide and leave it out near the pool. Then measure the decay rates of the chemicals in the buckets. It’s an imperfect test at best but it might give you some indication of how frequently you have to dose the sanitizer and oxidizer. You already kind of know how much sanitizer you’re losing each day from the pool so if that matches the bucket, then there’s some confidence that you’ll be close. Again, it’s only a ballpark estimate but it’s better than blindly adding chemicals...
 
Interestingly, I just tried another bigaunide test with the Taylor kit. I am now getting the correct color change after adding 8 drops, which would indicate a level of 40ppm. This may well be accurate being that I added enough sanitizer to bring it close to the recommended 50.


So this would seem to indicate that the amount of Ahhsome in the pool is dissipating pretty quickly (?) or else has fallen below the 4ppm threshold beyond which the interference is supposed to occur. If such is the case and I only have to wait a week or so, not as big a deal as anticipated I suppose. Sanitizer has always seemed to be quite stable (at least judging from test strips). Most of what I read about it seems to suggest it typically only needs to be added about every 2 weeks or so. Of course this is dependent on lots of variables. Either way, it seems that I can continue to use the Taylor kit. I had some brief correspondence with a tech guy at La Motte. He wanted the MSDS for Ahhsome - though there's not that much info on there that is of much use. He said he'll check as to whether or not the dye they use is also bromophenol blue. He may be confused a bit...said that dye is typically used for pH. Doesn't he mean phenol red?
 
No BPB and bromothymol blue (BTB) are pH indicators that operate at more acidic levels 6.4-7.6).

I would suggest that you let the Ahh-some dissipate fully and then do some serious daily testing to try understand the loss rates of both your sanitizer (PHMB) and oxidizer (peroxide). I would also suggest that since your pool has a lot of trouble with algae/mold/bacteria that you use the highest recommended value of PHMB as your floor level, ie, your pool never drops below that level. So you might need to dose a certain percentage above the max value to account for daily loss. I would also do the same for the peroxide too - the max value is your floor value.
 
Sounds like a good plan. Speaking of algae....since I'm using "Baquacil Sanitizer and Algistat" is it also necessary to use a regular (Baquacil) Algaecide? I should ask Baquacil about this. I wonder too how much good the Aqua Finesse tablets do? I don't mind using them, especially if it's worth it, but the problem with those is that since these tablets are partly sodium carbonate, they constantly drive up the pH, so then I have to add pH decreaser. Roller coaster....

Just chatted with Baquacil...total waste of time. The guy said the only "official" way to test PHMB is using either test strips (which they sell...lol) or to take water to the pool store and have their super duper computer software analyze it. So we're back to customer service keeping the peasants at bay as you alluded to earlier!!
 
An algacide is required with Baquacil. I’ll have to look around again at the wording in the label but one of their products I believe is a Poly60 labeled under a different name. You’ll want to use this one.
 

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