Need recommendation for check valve. spring? or ??? brand?? easy to repair or lube?

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pypeke

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Jul 31, 2015
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Southeastern Oklahoma
Hi, all. When we stop the pump, all of the water on the suction side drains back down into the pool. So we have a gravity problem because that is how our pool plumbing was originally built. We never had to prime anything due to gravity.

The lake flooded and all of our equipment was under the lake water for three weeks. So new pump, old filter and plumbing was routed up above the pool level on the deck. So now, when the pump is shut off, all of the water drains back into the pool. We had plumbers come out to "fix" the problem. They put in a ball valve which does not fix the problem.

I think we need a check valve right before the pipe that goes into the pump. Is that the right valve to use?

Does anyone have a good brand name for a suggestion? Spring? vs ? Easy access for repair or lubing? (if they are lubed)

I think we can install it ourselves. I really can't understand why the plumbers installed a ball valve right before the pipe that goes into the pump. It has never been used.




Edited: I just found the FloVis flow meter on TFTTestkits. I have an Intelliflo Variable speed pump. Do I need a flow meter? What is their purpose?
No matter how many times I read about head flow, it just confuses me. I have no idea what speed to keep my pump on.

Thanks for your advice.
 
I assume you possibly read the reply i gave regarding some of the pipe run that you described under the deck, and in a roundabout way via this post, you are confirming that you are above pool water level with some of the horizontal pipe run lengths under the deck, if so, you should strongly consider lowering those horizontal runs which should be easy enough to do.

pool.jpg
 
The 2nd picture is exactly what I have currently. I can't move it anywhere else.

Every time I stop the pump to clean out the basket, the water goes back into the pool even if I fill the basket with water. I thought maybe a check valve close to the pump might help.

thanks.
 
You have a big in-ground pump that will self prime. There is no need for the check valve. The pump should have no issue priming.

It is normal for the equipment to be above the water level for in-ground pools.
 
That's true, but there is zero water in the pipes with the pump lid off. I can fill the pump basket with water for an hour and it will not stay filled. I immediately put the lid on, but the water drains back down the pipes. Yesterday the pump started making an unusual noise because it takes too long to prime. The water only trickles in after about 3-4 minutes. There are only a couple of inches of water below the hole that goes into the impeller. It is sucking air. After 5 minutes, water gushes in finally.

(With your second picture) I have about 17 ft of pipe with no water in it.

thanks, again.
 
Ah, I see. Usually there is not that much pipe above the pool water level. Even with mine only a foot above water, there is no way to fill the pump with water, it will always drain back to the pool. When they suggest to "fill the pump with water before turning on" They must just mean the bottom of the basket area because you will never be able to fill it above the suction pipe.

In your situation, a check valve likely would make sense. Whether you want or need the flow meter is up to you. I have on for my check valve prior to my solar valve just for informational purposes on flow through my solar array.
 
@OP, I don’t have a recommendation for you but your issue is very interesting and somewhat very challenging. I’m scratching my head :scratch:

Testimony…my pool pump is about 1.5’ above the waterline with the vertical return pipe approx. 4’ above the water level. I don’t have a check valve at the suction side but our pump basket is full solid when the pump is off. Unless I open the air relief valve and let the air in, then the water flows back down until the basket is empty.

Theoretically, pool plumbing is supposed to be closed loop! If you’re saying that gravity is pulling the water back down to the pool when the pump is off, then where is the air coming from to replace the water inside the plumbing? I doubt your return head is installed above the waterline or was it? Same principle when you try to put your thumb on one end of the straw filled with liquid. What do you think will happen to the liquid inside the straw when you remove your thumb?

I can’t say for sure if you have plumbing leaks but it would be very interesting to know what really is causing your pump basket to go dry. I’ll be following this thread hoping to learn along with you.
 
jblizzle, thank you. With other "normal" pools I have owned, filling the pump basket was easy. I think there are 3 solutions, but I could be totally wrong.

1. We could change all the plumbing (again) where the suction pipe would be moved lower to the ground (below water level) until we HAVE to take the pipes vertical. That would use 4 - 90° elbows instead of the 5 - 90° elbows we currently have. The return pipe COULD stay up high where it is because it would be easy to drain in the winter. But if we moved the return pipes lower to the ground we would use 1 less 90° elbow. Using less elbows would always be better, but I doubt 2 less elbows would be that helpful for head loss.

2. We could run new suction pipe at a diagonal angle near ground on the left side by 3 way valve and gradually going up higher on the right side (keeping pipe below water level) where it goes to the pump. Then all of the suction side pipe would be below pool surface level UNTIL we get to where we need to go vertical into the pump. That would be about a 2 ft vertical pipe which would be easier on priming the pump. We would also use less elbows. Maybe? Not 90° elbows...not sure what degree angle those other elbows are. Would elbows with more curve (not 90°) allow more flow? Better for head loss? I might be totally wrong.

3. Leave the plumbing and all those 90° elbows where they are and install a check valve on top of the deck close to the pump. We would still have lots of head loss, but the check valve would stop the priming problem.

On your your flow meter, does it tell the volume of water flows through your solar array or how fast it is flowing through? I have no idea what the purpose of a flow meter is. If we put a flow meter on, what information would it give us? Where would it be placed? Before pump? Between pump and filter? After filter? We don't have solar panels or heaters.

We put a new gauge on last night and running at 2000 rpm the gauge shows 7. Running at 1500 rpm, the gauge shows 0.5. Running at 750 rpm shows 0. I want to run the pump at the lowest possible speed to save on the electric bill. I also worry about running the pump at too high of an rpm. I know I don't understand about pressure on pipes and the filter and how much is too much pressure. I don't want to break the pipes or explode the filter.

Meadow, thanks. My pump basket is full when the pump is off UNLESS I have taken the lid off to clean the pump basket. That is when I have problems priming. I don't have an air relief valve or at least I haven't seen anything that looks like it would release air. It is quite possible that I don't know what I am looking for. ��

"If you’re saying that gravity is pulling the water back down to the pool when the pump is off, then where is the air coming from to replace the water inside the plumbing?"

I think about 17 ft of pipe is about level with the pool surface or maybe an inch or so above the pool surface. I guess when the pump basket is being cleaned, that is when the air gets sucked in as the water flows back down the 17 ft pipe. All I know is that it takes 3-4 minutes for the water to begin to trickle back into the pump basket, but it begins to flow within 5 minutes. By 6 minutes the water is finally hitting the clear plastic pump lid. 3 large air bubbles are always under the pump lid. We never get rid of them.

"I doubt your return head is installed above the waterline or was it?"

I don't know what a return head is unless you mean the return pipes taking the water back to the pool.

Thanks for all of the information. I hope we figure it out soon. I know I am tired of paying for plumbers every year to fix the problem, and the problem is never fixed. The last plumbers added lots of elbows and raised the pipes to pool level or a little above pool level. So now if anyone is going to screw it up, at least it will be us screwing it up. Cheaper too.
 
Removing 1 90 fitting is not worth the replumbing. I think I would just add a check valve between the pool and the pump on the suction line.

Note this does increase the entrapment risk in the pool as just turning off the pump would not release someone that was stuck.

Usually you do not want to run the pump at to love speed as it is less efficient. I think around $1,000 RPM isn't near optimal as far as efficiency.
 
When we stop the pump, all of the water on the suction side drains back down into the pool.
Click to expand...

ahhh...my apology, I clearly misunderstood your first post.

I really can't understand why the plumbers installed a ball valve right before the pipe that goes into the pump. It has never been used.
Click to expand...
Now it does make sense why the plumber installed a ball valve before the pump. You need to manually close the valve prior to opening the lid for maintenance purposes. This will prevent the water from flowing back down to the pool and perhaps retain some water in the basket. Just make sure to open the valve as soon as you turn the pump back on. Hope this helps.
 

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Meadow...you were correct to begin with..I didn't say it was when the pump basket was cleaned...my fault...so sorry for the confusion. Ball valve.... now it makes sense. I tried using it today. It kept some of the water but by the time I step over the ball valve, walk around the filter, and get to the pump's on switch, the water has drained. So it looks like a check valve would be better.



jblizzle, Yes, option 1 would only save 1 or 2 elbows (if both pipes are redone). Option 2 would remove 3 or 6 elbows (if both pipes are redone.) Cheaper to put a check valve in.

Entrapment risk: Would that only happen when someone actually sits on the main drain and completely cover the drain? Or just one hand or foot can also get stuck? or hair getting caught? Does the drain have to be completely covered?

I told the guy who installed our liner to put a drain cover on that would not allow entrapment. He said that is what he put on. How can I tell if he actually put one on or not? I know it is raised and no longer flat. Is a VGB compliant drain cover enough to counteract the effects of the check valve?


Will the raised safety drain cover even work with a check valve on the pump? I do not have a dual main drain, safety vacuum release system, suction-limiting vent system, or a gravity drainage system. My pool is old and those systems are newer, I think. I always keep the bottom drain 3 way valve halfway closed where more water comes through the skimmer. Is this good or bad as regards to entrapment? Will the safety cover and keeping more suction coming from the skimmer be enough to counter the effects of the check valve? It might be better to do option 2 instead of adding a check valve.

As regards to head loss, should I minimize the elbows and redo the pipes as in option 2? How would less head loss help? Do I even need to worry about head loss? Thinking about head loss give me a head ache.

I think the Intelliflo Variable Speed can go from 750 rpm to 3500 rpm, but I don't know if 3500 rpm is too much for my 1.5" very old pipes or my filter so I never run the pump over 2500 rpm. I programmed it so it won't go over 2500.

Decisions...decisions...thanks for the information.
 
You could turn the pump on and then open up the ball valve. You would not hurt anything doing that.

- - - Updated - - -

To be entraped due to the check valve, one would have to entirely cover the drain (and that would have to be the only source of suction to the pump so if you keep the skimmer partially open too, then that would greatly lower the risk) so that a vacuum would be pulled holding them to the drain. When the pump was turned off, the check valve would not allow the vacuum to be released. The risk is very very low especially if the proper cover was used.

Hair entanglemeant is a little different and could occur with any drain cover. This would be if long hair was sucked in and then got knotted preventing the person from pulling away. Again very low risk. And the check valve would not impact this at all.
 
Thank you. I found the following info on INYOPOOLS.

"These check valves come with different spring strengths. Most have 1/2# spring for light resistance. Some have a 2# resistance for situations with greater head or backflow pressure like solar panels mounted on an 8 ft high roof." This brings me to other questions.

1. Do I need 2# resistance since I have an 8 ft vertical pipe right before where I will put a check valve? (Only about 3 ft will be even with or above the pool water level though so maybe a 1/2# spring is better?)
If I understand correctly, the flapper opens and stays open to let water come through until the pump shuts off, then the spring will close the flapper. A 2# spring will close the flapper more quickly than a 1/2# spring? So, should I get a 1/2# or a 2#?

2. Will a 2# check valve spring make the entrapment issue worse?

3. Will it raise the head pressure? If so, my filter gauge will show a higher number?

4. Two kinds of spring flapper check valves covers. Twist on nut vs 8 screws. Which would you choose and why? My pump has a twist on cover on the basket, and I can barely turn it. I don't remember it being that hard to turn when we first installed it, but after using it for two years, it is very difficult to turn. But I read on kadavis's link that screws can be stripped out with the screw on type lid.

5. I plan on using a spring flapper check valve that I can repair easily, and I will use unions to connect. Where is the best place to buy union connections and check valves?

Lowe's? or a pool supply store? (whether a physical store or online)

Thanks for the advice.
 
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