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Thread: WaterProof options needed

  1. Back To Top    #1

    WaterProof options needed

    Hi Everyone.

    Im from Portugal..yep..that little country near Spain

    Im building my small pool 8,7m x 2,5m with deepest point at 1,6meters (half DIY, half others)
    Vanishing edge with 8,7meters with clear view to a valey.
    Ill post soon a picture of work done so far.

    Since its made with concrete blocks, concrete pillars and concrete band, im shore it will crack some day due to the use of diferent materials.
    The next step is to finish the vanishing edge (8,7m long) with concrete and plaster all the walls and floor of the pool. (plaster done with regular cimment and sand just to smooth the walls and floor).

    Now...what would be the best finish (waterproofing) for this?

    Plastic Paint? Rubber?
    Fiber?
    I could use PVC, some claim that is much better then liner, thicker, cheaper and done in site...
    How to i finish the vanishing edge with PVC or liner?


    Any help appreciated
    Goahead
    27' 17,000 gal, AG,cartridge filter, 2.5 HP Waterway 2 speed

  2. Back To Top    #2

    Join Date
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    Re: WaterProof options needed

    Welcome to TFP!!

    It's GREAT to have another international member here

    You might want to look at Mats' thread HERE for how he finally decided on tiling the pool (which I think would be your best option ). It discusses some of the other coatings and, given the failings of ANY coating, why he went with the tile

    We'll be here to help discuss the good and bad of any type you have in mind - some need to be recoated more often, some are much more expensive, some have VERY strict requirements for application and some are just too expensive.

    I hope you get the pool of your dreams (it sounds like it will be beautiful!) with the 'coating' that will work best for you!
    Luv& Luk
    -Ted

    Having done construction and service for 4 pool companies in 4 states starting in 1988, what I know about pools could fill a couple of books - what I don't know could fill a couple of libraries :-D

    POOL SCHOOL, TF Testkits, Jason's Pool Calculator, CYA vs. cl chart, (Just a few DARNED handy links!)

  3. Back To Top    #3

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    Re: WaterProof options needed

    I don't know the answer to your questions but just wanted to say hi. I hope you keep us posted on your progress and share pictures of your pool build throughout the process.
    Buggs

    14,000 gallon, in ground, plaster, free form, play pool.
    Sta-Rite Max-E-Glass with a 1.5 hp Emerson motor
    WaterCo Micron High Rate sand filter S750 490 lb, 4883 sq ft - using ZeoBest
    In floor Polaris cleaning system
    Blue Diamond robot for those after storm days when I can't wait overnight for the in floor to clean it.

  4. Back To Top    #4

    Re: WaterProof options needed

    Hi Everyone...

    Thank you for the warm welcome
    The batteries from my camera where down so i took a picture with my old phone.

    Like i told you... only 8,7m x 2,5m made with concrete blocks.



    Its a foggy morning here...but i have clear view to a valley and river at the bottom... just need to cut the tress a bit.


    Landscape will be my next project..but now im focused in the swimming pool.

    This are my thoughts regarding to tubes...


    They will all be 63mm (2" 1/2) in diameter
    Dont want a waterfall in the edge...just a big skimmer.
    Done some calculations with great information from this site, and some articles found in the internet...so i think im in the right way.

    1st - My concern is waterproofing
    2nd - How do i finish the vanishing edge if i use liner or PVC?

    Let me check and read the link provided..ill be back with some more ideias

    Just post your ideas and comments
    Thx in advance

    Sorry for my bad English writing.
    Goahead
    27' 17,000 gal, AG,cartridge filter, 2.5 HP Waterway 2 speed

  5. Back To Top    #5

    Re: WaterProof options needed

    Welcome! Your English is just fine! (better than some people I know for whom it is the native tongue )

    Interesting build, I will be interested to see the progress.

    8000 gallon 20' x 48" round vinyl frame pool, 12" sand filter (don't have the specs on the pump), TF100 test kit
    Handy Links: PoolMath, TF-100 Test Kit, Pool School, CYA-Chlorine Chart
    "Shock" is a process, not a product!

  6. Back To Top    #6

    Re: WaterProof options needed

    Thank you my Queen

    I must not forget the vacuum tube for cleaning in my previous drawing.

    For what i could read, what makes the waterproofing in concrete pools is the concrete if self..not the title finishing.. or at least it is 98% waterproofing.

    Since i use concrete blocks i will need other type of material.

    My house roof is made of PVC liner since its a flat one. (modern arquitecture)
    Its 25 years warranty from UV and flooding.

    So my best option is to use similar material.
    The market here is growing fast in PVC liners, and when i say liner im not talking about pre-made sac of plastic, but real PVC armed with polyester 1,5mm thick, 100% waterproofing, solder in site and its claimed to gain 5º celsius compared to concrete pool since you can put "wallmate" (thermal protection) between wall/floor and PVC liner.
    UV protected, alga free protection, anti-slip among others...well...its comes with 10years warranty from installer, but factory gives us 25 years warranty in material.
    They have several surfaces color and tiles...here just a few...



    I see it costs 25€ square meter, but im shore it can reach 45€ including soldering in site by professionals.

    1- Do you have a swinging pool with this material?
    2 - Do you have eared about it? Is it a good option?
    3 - Whats the price target in US for this?

    So many questions i have right now..but i believe that a majority of forum members are just drinking Caipirinha next to ther pools.
    So i will not get answer till October

    Kind regards
    Goahead
    27' 17,000 gal, AG,cartridge filter, 2.5 HP Waterway 2 speed

  7. Back To Top    #7

    Join Date
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    Re: WaterProof options needed

    I have never seen this type of liner installation before. That is very interesting. I don't know that we have that type in the U.S., yet.
    Buggs

    14,000 gallon, in ground, plaster, free form, play pool.
    Sta-Rite Max-E-Glass with a 1.5 hp Emerson motor
    WaterCo Micron High Rate sand filter S750 490 lb, 4883 sq ft - using ZeoBest
    In floor Polaris cleaning system
    Blue Diamond robot for those after storm days when I can't wait overnight for the in floor to clean it.

  8. Back To Top    #8

    In the Industry

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    Re: WaterProof options needed

    We have site specific seaming tools for liners in the USA.

    I do allot of consultation work in Mexico and Panama for pool solutions. I have seen allot of block construction pools here in FL and other countries.You would be amazed how well they hold water when plastered.I would membrane the block substrate with the Laticrete 9235 system. Concrete is not waterproof at all. The membrane will water proof the block and provide reinforcement along with flexibility. Make sure the block is sitting on a footer and filled with concrete and rebar. Pour the floor solid and make sure its pinned into the block walls as well with # 3 rebar 12 inches on center.

  9. Back To Top    #9

    Re: WaterProof options needed

    Hi Frank

    Thank you for suggestions.

    There are several products/brands available here typed "membrane paint" for waterproofing.
    What i don't want is this limitations:

    - Do not use over expansion joints, structural cracks
    or cracks with vertical differential movement
    - Do not use over cracks >3mm in width
    - Do not use as a vapor barrier (especially in steam rooms)
    - Do not expose unprotected membrane to sun or weather for >30 days
    - Do not expose to negative hydrostatic pressure, excessive vapor transmission, rubber solvents or ketones
    - Must be covered with ceramic tile, stone, brick,concrete, screeds, terrazzo or other traffic-bearing course. For temporary cover, use protection board.
    - Do not install directly over single layer wood floors,plywood tubs/showers/ fountains or similar
    constructs

    It should work great, if you want to put tile above the membrane (and it should be my option for a vanishing-edge pool), but that will take up the final cost.

    Have you ever saw a vanishing-edge pool with liner? How do they join the PVC with ceramics in the weir wall?
    I have a pool constructor that claims its possible and we already done it, but doesn't want to explain how!
    He wants to make the job

    I will definitely put more rebar, and also a iron mesh in the bottom...30.000L equals 30 tones..thats a lot of force in bottom and walls.

    Buggsw:
    That PVC is similar to this one in my house
    One Roof of my house in the construction phase...12€ m2 including all work in place.
    That PVC can old up to 25 years directly with sun light.
    But ...i will put some gravel above it....better to protect it a bit.


    The PVC to swimming pool is similar, but comes with algae protection/coating, other colors..and off course..3x the price

    Can someone awnser the PVC vanishing-edge question?

    Kind regards From Portugal
    Goahead
    27' 17,000 gal, AG,cartridge filter, 2.5 HP Waterway 2 speed

  10. Back To Top    #10
    morrodds's Avatar
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    Re: WaterProof options needed

    Ambitious project! I had looked into a vanishing edge design but didn't have the courage to try.

    "The Ultimate Guide To Vanishing Edge Pool Construction" by Anthony Sloan is available for download at:

    http://sloanconstructionservices.com/sh ... bee1e40453

    In the chapter on Weir Wall Design he describes how to use a vinyl liner with a metal weir. Basically he describes that the metal weir is made with a rigid bottom edge. Wing walls are made at the normal pool height. A flat mount bead receiver is attached to the top of the wing walls and down to the bottom edge of the weir. The liner must cover all of the wing walls and metal edge. Foam can be used to protect the liner from the metal.

    The book is pricey ~ 80 USD, but I found no other source of info.


    Martin
    17k gal., sorta IG vinyl, 1.5 hp pump, 21" sand filter, Shark robotic cleaner.

  11. Back To Top    #11
    mpride's Avatar
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    Re: WaterProof options needed

    [quote="Goahead"]
    I have a pool constructor that claims its possible and we already done it, but doesn't want to explain how!
    He wants to make the job

    I would certainly ask to see some of his work that includes this type of construction.
    Mark
    IG Gunite * White Plaster * 26'9" x 14' * 310sqft * 70' Perimeter * 9300 Gallons * 2 Main Drains
    2 Skimmers * 4 Jets * Aqua Plus Control System * Aqua Rite Salt System * C3025 Cartridge Filter
    Tristar 2HP 2 Speed Pump * H400K Heater * Phantom w/Booster Pump * ColorLogic

  12. Back To Top    #12

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    X-PertPool's Avatar
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    Re: WaterProof options needed

    The liner company I deal with has those materials I believe; they are really thick and have a webbing on the inside and you seam it together on the spot. I don't really know how it works but it seems scary to me, I worry enough about seams the way it is let alone to have that issue be on my head :-O
    -Kevin
    X-Pert Pool Service
    x-pertpool.com
    X-Pert Pool on Facebook and @XPertPoolServic on Twitter
    22,000 gal / 16' x 32' / Vinyl / Hayward s244t /Pentair SuperFlo 1 hp

  13. Back To Top    #13

    Re: WaterProof options needed

    Hi X-Pert and morrodds

    It doesn't scare me that much...After 2 years of pvc in my roof i never saw any infiltration inside... lets keep fingers crossed

    The best thing of all this is that i can foam the walls from the inside making it better for heat conservation.

    I call another PB... He says that he puts the pvc above the weir wall and down the wall...if i need he will also waterproof the basin with same material.
    He claims that its possible to glue ceramic above pvc liner and wall, but its just for aesthetics point-of-view, since that pvc is ready for UV light.
    Everything is possible...he just need to analyse my demands

    The final price including appliance in site is 35€ per m2

    Any more opinions here about this?
    Is the price ok compared with the materials you use in US (liner, plaster, paint etc)?

    i must point again that pvc has 10 years warranty.

    Kind regards
    Goahead
    27' 17,000 gal, AG,cartridge filter, 2.5 HP Waterway 2 speed

  14. Back To Top    #14
    Henry Porter's Avatar
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    Re: WaterProof options needed

    Obregada Portugal!
    That 1,5mm thick reinforced liner(Alkorplan) http://alkorplanpools.com.p2.hostingpro ... lling.html that you weld together in the pool is quite usuall here in Sweden. This is the option for those who have build their pool with an irrigular shape or/and with steps so it's complicated to get the liner premade from the manufactor.
    People I have read about has nothing but good things to say about that type of liner and it's quality.
    Regarding the price that you mentioned is that including all the materials that you need? Fleece carpets and different types of solvents/glues and tools that you need to get the job done. I know one person who have made the welding himself with a terrrific result, so it's a doable job for someone who don't have their thumb in the middle of the hand
    He imported all that he needed to complete his 124m2 pool from Germany and he payed around 35euros /m2. Less than half the price that he was quoted from swedish resellers for the material. So 25 must be a good price.
    Inground concrete pool 14600 gallons,Pentair Whisperflo 3/4HP WFE-3, Hayward swimclear 420sq ft
    Zodiac LM3-24 SWG, Dolphin Diagnostic poolrobot, Heatpump Gullberg&Jansson 13,8KW, TF testkit.

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  15. Back To Top    #15

    Re: WaterProof options needed

    Hi Henry

    tack så mycket

    Impressive work you have done in your pool...I also admire your patience of deciding not to fill the pool this year!

    Nice to ear that there's a DIY person in Europe that made such pvc/welding pool.
    So its 100% doable..i would still need to buy the solder machine.

    Alkorplan shows a vanishing-edge pool with PVC...so PB where right about this.


    I guess prices in Sweden are a bit high...

    Here is the price from Portugal 2008 (last 2 pages)
    http://www.sotecnisol.pt/upload/cont...enolitetab.pdf
    That's just the price for the PVC plus taxes

    In my last post i pointed that 35€ m2 was the price given from PB for PVC including application (current prices August 2009).
    All the items needed to solder (hot air machine),fix, solvents/glues included...

    Fleece carpets..i think its also included..have to check that. i was planning on using WallMate(TM) and FloorMate(TM) but i will loose 30mm on each wall..and that becomes a lot with only 2,5 meters width pool.
    Fleece is so thin that it is not intended to work on thermal proposes...just to avoid irregularity in walls to cut liner.
    Another way is to use rockwool...i have to check thickness of it.


    His there any other good option used for thermal protection in US and Europe?

    Best Regards
    Goahead
    27' 17,000 gal, AG,cartridge filter, 2.5 HP Waterway 2 speed

  16. Back To Top    #16

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    Re: WaterProof options needed

    Wiht many specialized tools you can resell them at the end of your job and not lose too much money. This amounts to an inexpensive way to rent the tool.
    11000 Gals, Intelliflo, Sta-Rite Cartridge, Polaris 360

    Pool I built in my old house: my-new-pool-build-t4534.html

  17. Back To Top    #17

    Re: WaterProof options needed

    Hi Cobra

    Its not very common here. People do not rent this type of material or other type.
    If you have the machine, then you want to make the job..not rent it. But i will look at it, near companies.

    Humm.... what about that!!!
    http://www.geaplan.de/teichfolie.php

    9.99€ m2 taxes included.
    Thats SikaPlan WP 3100-15R (WP 3100-15RE for steps)

    Half the price of Arkoplan..and it seems to have the same characteristics.

    I believe its cheaper because they have been in market for a very long time...and that's the brand that does the same PVC for roofs, tunnels and water tanks.

    I must take this one into account.

    Keep it cool
    Goahead
    27' 17,000 gal, AG,cartridge filter, 2.5 HP Waterway 2 speed

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