New indoor pool readings

Jan 2, 2016
23
UK
Hello,
We have an 18000 gallon tiled indoor pool with SWG and a UV sanitizer. The SWG has now got the FC up to an acceptable level so I have taken a set of readings using all the reagents provided in the kit I bought.
Here they are:
PH 8.11
FC 5.09
CC .13
CYA 2
TA 35

TA looks very low compared to TFP recommendations. Any comments welcome.

Thanks,
Kalavo
 
Indoor, got it!

If that CYA is really 2 (and it's usually not reliable at less than around 20ppm), I might use PoolMath to add enough CYA to reach 20ppm (start with enough to reach 10ppm and retest). A little CYA will help to buffer the chlorine and make it less harsh on everyone.

FC looks good

TA - Yes, you will want to bring that TA up. I'd use muriatic acid to bring pH down to 7.2, then baking soda to raise TA to around 60 or so. Monitor TA after that - depending on your fill water, it might want to creep down as you add acid to combat the natural rise in pH from the SWG. Try to keep TA at or above 50. Bear in mind that the baking soda will raise pH a bit, this is normal.
 
Thanks triptyx

I'll slowly try and get everything within recommendations. It's great to be able to swim in it after so many years building it.

I'm somewhat reluctant to do anything about the CYA though. The Installation manual for the IC40 says in massive capitals letters:
DO NOT USE CYANURIC ACID IN INDOOR POOLS

Cheers
Kalavo
 
The manufacturers also say never have more then 2-4ppm in the pool, even when CYA acceptable limits are 30-100. :)

In short, there are no real downsides to a small amount of CYA in the water, but a lot of upsides, including not bleaching swimsuits and hair, not causing massive drying out of your skin, and the water just being easier on your swimmers in general.

Here is a short excerpt from a "Deep End" discussion by Chem Geek, one of our forumers who is involved in numerous committees and who has had a hand in writing quite a bit of our materials and materials for others:

...

As for commercial/public use, obviously one does not want to overuse CYA, but the real ignorance is in not understanding how a modest amount of CYA moderates chlorine's strength enough to not be too harsh on bathers and enough to reduce disinfection by-product production but not so much as to prevent adequate disinfection. This is known science since at least 1974 (more on that later).

Note that they refer to a buildup of CYA -- there is no buildup to high levels with the Dichlor-then-bleach method we propose. We only use Dichlor until the CYA reaches around 30 ppm and then switch to using bleach. Note how this is superior to what most residential spa users do which is Dichlor-only with CYA buildup. However, if you were to not have any CYA at all, then the chlorine would be too strong, would outgas too quickly, would degrade hot tub covers faster, would oxidize swimsuits and skin faster, would corrode equipment faster, produce disinfection by-products faster, etc.

...

I suggest one reads the "Chlorine/CYA Relationship" section in the first post of the thread Certified Pool Operator (CPO) training -- What is not taught. It gives numerous references to scientific papers explaining that relationship so that people no longer need be ignorant about the subject.

Again, the above shows ignorance for what CYA actually does and the public health references are for commercial/public pools and spas, though even so they still show ignorance of the actual science of the chlorine/CYA relationship. They all think that CYA's only role is to protect chlorine from sunlight and that CYA's reduction of chlorine effectiveness is so extreme that it shouldn't be used, but yet they do use it outdoors. The fact is that CYA is a hypochlorous acid buffer so one can tune the level of active chlorine one needs for appropriate disinfection and oxidation. CYA acts as a reservoir for chlorine so that you don't run out of chlorine which is something that is the primary reason for problems in the MMWR reports (there are a few reports with excessive CYA well over 100 ppm that are obviously problematic, but most are about near zero chlorine levels). CYA also moderates chlorine's strength. Using chlorine without any CYA can have the chlorine level be too strong. Europe understands this which is why their DIN 19643 standard targets 0.3 to 0.6 ppm FC with no ozone and 0.2 to 0.5 ppm FC with ozone in the circulation path. Higher active chlorine levels lead to faster oxidation of swimsuits, skin and hair and to faster creation of disinfection by-products. This is basic chemistry -- a higher concentration of a reactant results in faster reaction rates in whatever reactions for which the reactant participates.

My wife has personally experienced this difference in chlorine's strength where in an indoor commercial pool she used to swim in every 5-month winter season we would have to replace her swimsuits every year and her skin was flakier and hair frizzier compared to our own outdoor residential pool she swam in for 7 months of the summer season where swimsuits would last for 7 years and the effects on skin and hair were far less noticeable. The chlorine level in the indoor pool was 1-2 ppm FC with no CYA, but in our outdoor pool it was 3-6 ppm FC with 30-40 ppm CYA but that is equivalent to around 0.1 ppm FC with no CYA. It is the factor of 10-20x difference in active chlorine concentrations that accounts for the different experience. Essentially, the indoor pool is significantly over-chlorinated in terms of the active chlorine level. Had the indoor pool used 4 ppm FC with 20 ppm CYA, it would have had an active chlorine level of 0.2 ppm equivalent with no CYA.

...

Having a little CYA in the water will provide a lot of benefits to your indoor pool. :) I'm assuming here that it is a residential pool and that you do not have a ton of people swimming in it every day.
 
Thanks Triptyx,

Looks like I need to do a lot more reading up on this.
Normally it will be just my wife and I who use the pool for about 30mins per day. Forgot to mention that it's a deck level pool with lots of water splashing and gurgling as it descends into the surge tank. That could explain the high-ish PH level

Cheers
Kalavo
 
A lot of splashing and gurgling would certainly aerate and cause pH rise.

No worries, do some reading and think about it. We're not about "do this or else" here - we're more about "understand how things really work so you can make good, informed decisions on managing your pool".
 
I've done a bit more reading up on this, which can be a dangerous thing.

I'm comfortable with the relationship between CYA and FC and why TFP recommends 20ppm CYA in indoor pools.

However, lets suppose a hypothetical scenario where I left the TA (at 35) and CYA (at near zero) and tried to maintain the PH around 8.0 rather than trying to decrease it.

The following chart: https://www.troublefreepool.com/~richardfalk/pool/CO2.htm shows the low TA/high PH in the pool would result in virtually zero CO2 outgassing and hence virtually no raising of PH due to all the aeration going on. Therefore making it easier to keep the PH around 8.0.

"With no CYA in the water, going from a PH of 7.5 to 8.0 lowers the active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) level by roughly 50%" is a quote from Chem Geek buried in another thread. I know it's the hypochlorous acid in the chlorine that does all the nasty germ killing. I assume it's the hypochlorous acid that is also responsible for hair damage and swimming costume destroying.
So, in the hypothetical scenario, could the high PH act as a stabilizer (although not as dramatic) in the same way that CYA normally does and hence maintain the FC in a higher/bigger range (albeit still a very low range with the current CYA)?
Thanks
Kalavo
 
I don't know why that manual has that warning, but a pool with 0 CYA and any amount of FC is very harsh. I "swim" in an indoor pool during the winter and they have 0 CYA and 2-4 ppm FC and it is sooo harsh. It bothers my forehead the most for some reason :laughblue: There is a reason I'm only in it ~15 minutes.
 
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