Questions regarding plumbing sprays and solar heating

[Dirk]

I would suspect from a fail safe aspect, you would want the flow up through the flow switch and cell. That way, if the flow switch flapper malfunctioned it would fail open, or no flow, versus if the system installed the other way, it would fail closed, or on. Might be overthinking this as we all do sometimes!!

Yes, that was the jist of the other's idea, to go up through the SWG, not down through it. And yes, probably overthinking. Didn't mean to pile on the OP, but if it were me I'd want to know all the considerations and then decide on best practice, so I only had to cut and glue once...

This from another forum, that I think is saying exactly what Marty just did:

The display panel of the IntelliChlor cannot be repositioned. When installing the unit vertically, be sure to install it in such a way that the water flow is traveling upwards through the system. This adds another safety to ensure that the weight of the water does not depress the flow switch when there is no water movement.

And this from JoyfulNoise here on TFP, though he may be indicating the opposite direction? A bit beyond me, I think I'll leave mine horizontal...

I think the only requirement I know of is 12-18" of straight PVC before the input side of the IC60 to ensure that turbulent flow does not mess up the flow sensor. The flow sensor looks like a plastic tab with a magnet on the end that dangles in the water stream. If the flow is too low, then the magnet does not get pushed close enough to the internal reed switch to make closure. I think the input side is up so that the magnet isn't impeded from making proper closure. If it's oriented the wrong way vertically, then I think it takes greater flow rates to move the magnet and the flow sensor may not make closure at all.

Give Pentair technical support a call, they are helpful.​

 

[Jimrahbe]

B,

I would do this...

You would have to set the internal stops on the top three way valve so that it worked for you... I'd start at 60% spray and 40% pool/spa and see if that worked.. If not readjust.. Just so that I am clear... this valve would either shut off the sprayer and let all the water flow into the Pool/Spa Return valve, or send part of the water to the sprayer. The amount sent to the sprayer and the Return valve would be set by the valves internal stops.


You could if you want use the older two way valve as a manual valve and still allow your automation to turn the sprayer on/off..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Dirk]

Jim, doesn't that still leave the possibility (however slim*) of completely closing off the return, jamming up the pump? I see that you've accounted for that with the 60/40, but couldn't it still go wrong somehow? Couldn't he eliminate the 2-way, and just use the stops of that first 3-way to dial in for the sprayers? That would be dirk-proof, uh, idiot proof, as no matter where the valves were set, or where the stops were set, there'd always be flow?

* If he's got any sub commanders running around, then the possibility increases 10-fold!

 

[Dirk]

Oh, and he's going to have a challenge with the solar. As it comes on and off, it'll mess with the spray adjustment, as will going from pool to spa to pool. And as he goes back and forth between spray or no spray and pool and spa (and all the various possibilities of that) it'll mess with the flow through the solar. It might not matter too much, but then again it will affect energy efficiency to some degree. If he automates all three valves (solar, sprayers and pool/spa), he should be able to program his controller and VS to optimize flow for at least some of those possibilities, but maybe not all of them. Another plug for the FlowVis...

He's got four things all presenting four different "resistances" to the pump. And he can mix and match most of those at will, increasing the number of "resistances" even more (sorry, not sure what that's called, is that head?). Yikes...

If the goal is to have the sprayers come on no matter what else the pool/spa/solar are doing, at a consistent pressure, that might mean a dedicated pump...

 

[bizzle]

Jim, doesn't that still leave the possibility (however slim*) of completely closing off the return, jamming up the pump? I see that you've accounted for that with the 60/40, but couldn't it still go wrong somehow? Couldn't he eliminate the 2-way, and just use the stops of that first 3-way to dial in for the sprayers? That would be dirk-proof, uh, idiot proof, as no matter where the valves were set, or where the stops were set, there'd always be flow?

* If he's got any sub commanders running around, then the possibility increases 10-fold!

Thank you, Jim. That clears it up for me. Can I rotate that first 3way 90degrees just for ease of plumbing?

Dirk, the reason I can't (or shouldn't) eliminate the 2way is that I won't be able to adjust the power of the *aerators* [finally found the pool term for my "sprayers"] without it. I could change the amount of flow the sprays receive manually, but that won't work with automation (it's either on or off). I'd need to dial in maximum height with the 3way (actuated between no spray and %spray/returns) and throttle it down with the 2way (manually).

Anywhere between spraying and really spraying is good nuff. Fluctuations won't bother me so long as it doesn't become a drizzle like it is now.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Thank you, Jim. That clears it up for me. Can I rotate that first 3way 90degrees just for ease of plumbing?

B,

As long as you set up the stops so that the valve only travels about 90 degrees.. If the valve is automated then it is unlikely to be set to full off... and blocking the output altogether...

Jim R.

 

[Dirk]

Thank you, Jim. That clears it up for me. Can I rotate that first 3way 90degrees just for ease of plumbing?

Dirk, the reason I can't (or shouldn't) eliminate the 2way is that I won't be able to adjust the power of the *aerators* [finally found the pool term for my "sprayers"] without it. I could change the amount of flow the sprays receive manually, but that won't work with automation (it's either on or off). I'd need to dial in maximum height with the 3way (actuated between no spray and %spray/returns) and throttle it down with the 2way (manually).

Anywhere between spraying and really spraying is good nuff. Fluctuations won't bother me so long as it doesn't become a drizzle like it is now.

Roger that. If the pressure to the aerators can vary, then you might be alright. Just keep in mind, that the way Jim's got it plumbed, there is a way to set those valves to completely seal off the return flow, though I don't actually know how bad that is for a pump should that happen. Can a pump blow up PVC? Or a filter? They do ramp up to full speed when they first come on. Stops on the first three-way will be your first safeguard against that. If the two-way has stops, you could set those, too, as your second safeguard, so that valve can't be inadvertently closed 100%. Don't use ball valves in any case, they're junk.

I'm just recalling (re-feeling?) a beating I got when I snuck into my Uncle's pump house, on his farm. The number of dials and valves and gizmos were too much for a young Commander to withstand. I had my submarine down to about 200 feet and I was in hot pursuit of an enemy sub, when the admiral caught me. Man was he mad. Who knows what I did to his irrigation system!!

 

[Jimrahbe]

Jim, doesn't that still leave the possibility (however slim*) of completely closing off the return, jamming up the pump? I see that you've accounted for that with the 60/40, but couldn't it still go wrong somehow? Couldn't he eliminate the 2-way, and just use the stops of that first 3-way to dial in for the sprayers? That would be dirk-proof, uh, idiot proof, as no matter where the valves were set, or where the stops were set, there'd always be flow?

* If he's got any sub commanders running around, then the possibility increases 10-fold!

Dirk,

I know the OP's signature says single speed pump, but I pretty sure he has an IntelliFlo and ET8... So changing speeds (flow) based upon the position of valves can be set up so that changes happen automatically.. So when he selects solar or sprayer or pool or spa, the pump will know to go to an optimum speed.. Kind of the whole point of automation..

Since (in my diagram anyway) both the Sprayer valve and the Return valve will be automated and are not prone to "sub-commanders" changing them...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Dirk]

Sorry, I'm still stewing on this. I didn't actually set up my 3-ways, but I thought I understood that you can set their stops and the actuator will "honor" them. In other words, you can set one position of your 3-way where the water goes 100% to the pool/spa, and the aerators would be off. No stop for that. But the other position can be set with a stop, so that you get just the right amount for your aerators, and the rest goes to your pool/spa. The actuator won't open that port 100%, but rather stop when it hits the stop. Do I have that wrong? In that way, you can control the amount of water going to the aerators with just the 3-way and eliminate the 2-way, and your return can never be closed off.

If I'm right, the only caveat is that the stops on the 3-way wouldn't provide the same amount of fine-tuning of the 2-way, but you said you don't really need that. You could always try it. If you later determine you need that 2-way, you can glue it in...

 

[bizzle]

Thanks for the advice and polite nudge to update my signature

The update/changeover happened this weekend.


I agree with your points, Dirk. It's all so clear to me now...but look at the timestamp when I started the thread

In any case, I doubt the aerators will be used much by me. I'm assuming the solar heating system will cool the water more effectively and efficiently than aeration because out here in the valley the likelihood of any sprayed water making it back into the pool during the summer is near zero.

That said, with two youngsters who will enjoy playing in it and My Boss who will likely enjoy looking at it from the spa necessitated fixin'.

 

[Dirk]

Dirk,

I know the OP's signature says single speed pump, but I pretty sure he has an IntelliFlo and ET8... So changing speeds (flow) based upon the position of valves can be set up so that changes happen automatically.. So when he selects solar or sprayer or pool or spa, the pump will know to go to an optimum speed.. Kind of the whole point of automation..

Since (in my diagram anyway) both the Sprayer valve and the Return valve will be automated they are not prone to "sub-commanders" changing them...

Thanks,

Jim R.

Cantankerous alert! READ ONLY IF BORED!

Yes, if he was operating each of those things independently, then he can program his VS for each. What I was getting at: when he starts mixing and matching things, I was wondering if the ET8 is smart enough. For arguments sake: he'll program VS speeds: one for spa, one for pool, one for solar. All good. Say the pool is filtering at the proper VS speed. Then solar kicks on and the VS ramps up to the preset solar speed. Still good. He's set the solar speed to optimize the panels' flow for best energy efficiency. But that flow is based on the water returning to the pool, through its returns. When he switches to spa, and solar kicks in, can the ET8 remember an alternate solar speed to optimize the panel flow when the water is returning to the spa (with all it's jets and whatnots)? And the aerators, which can now be on in pool or spa mode, add even more flow possibilities. Can the ET8 remember even more speeds, for when the aerators are on, and even more for the various combinations? So to optimize everything perfectly, the ET8 would have to have definable speeds for: pool, spa, pool with aerators, spa with aerators, pool with solar, spa with solar, pool with solar and aerators, spa with solar and aerators, and be able to execute those speeds based on what was on or not! Can it do that? Remember, I've got the four-lite, which couldn't do any such thing, so I'm skeptical about the 8.

I was just pointing out that if he wants to have the perfect flow rate for his panels, that rate is going to be affected by each of his return paths differently, and he's got four different paths (pool, spa, pool with aerators, spa with aerators). And if he was looking for perfect flow for his aerators too, along with his solar, this would be even more of a challenge (though he's said he doesn't need that).

Over thinking as usual. His setup will likely filter and heat the pool/spa and drive the aerators just fine. Just jawin'... :blah:

I will still, respectfully, disagree about that 2-way. If it is possible for someone (anyone) to manipulate those valves to close off the return, however difficult, risking expensive equipment and conceivably bodily harm (if in fact a VS starting up on full speed could blow out a seal, or filter body, or valve body, whatever), while it is equally possible to get those aerators working as desired without the 2-way, why would one take the risk? I guess I'm just saying I wouldn't.

 

[Dirk]

The update/changeover happened this weekend.

I doubt the aerators will be used much by me.

Now ya tell me! But, but, I had it all figured out!! (At least in my mind!!)

Hey, aerators mess with your pH anyway...

 

[Jimrahbe]

Dirk, Dirk, Dirk,

Closing the 2 way valve would only shut off the sprayers... This might increase the pressure a little, but it would not shut off the pool/spa valve which (as in the pic) would be open about 40%.. This will not cause the same problem that shutting off all of the water flow will. The only reason for the 2 way valve is to provide some fine tuning of the sprayers. Once you set the internal stops on the actuator, you really don't want to have to do it again...

Sorry, I did not mean that the ET has a brain and can make every decision known to man... I just meant that the normal operating modes can be programmed to run at speeds that are determined by the operator to fit the normal situations.

Will it be perfect.. No it won't.. Will it work most of the time.. Yes it will..



Thanks for your input and the "jawing"...

Jim R.

 

[Dirk]

OK, so let me learn from this, because it sounds like I was basing my "accusations" on a false assumption. As I mentioned, I've never actually set up an actuator. I thought the stops were those little knobby things in the exterior handle of the valve, that fit in the holes that rim the handle body. And while an actuator impedes the operation of the valve manually, they have that little external switch that can move the valve on-the-fly (independent of the controller). So what I was imagining (worst case) was that "someone" removes the stops from the handle, then uses either the handle or that actuator override switch on each valve, to create the problem scenario of no return path. Or are the stops available only by dismantling the actuator cover? That I didn't know, and would feel safe about it if that is the case. What I was warning about was the possibility that someone could remove external stops (or maybe they fail?) and the two-way is shut and the three-way is moved to 100% aerator. VS to 3500RPM, kaboom. Heck, I could see myself doing that while I was trying to figure out how it all works. I don't need my g-kids to cause the problem!

But we're on the same page about the ET. It can't adjust a VS to solve for perfect efficiency for X number of combinations of three actuators, but it can do a whole lot better than manual valves or an Intermatic!

 

[bizzle]

Two quick things:

1. An IntelliFlo won't explode when it deadheads. It senses a no flow condition and shuts off. Regardless, the stops Jim is referring to are not the external handle. They are used to structurally change the flow characteristics of the valve.

2. Aerators won't run at the same time with the solar heating. They're used to cool the water.

I also don't have any intention of heating my pool...I live in one of the hottest regions on our planet The solar heating is for heating the spa and cooling the pool.

 

[bizzle]

Jim,

Do you see any disadvantages to doing a normal tee off the filter outlet and just running a straight pipe to the aerators controlled by a 2way valve?

It'd look like this:

In this picture, I'm talking about putting the tee right in the middle of the screen, there's an elbow going up on the left side of the filter:

 

[Dirk]

Two quick things:

1. An IntelliFlo won't explode when it deadheads. It senses a no flow condition and shuts off. Regardless, the stops Jim is referring to are not the external handle. They are used to structurally change the flow characteristics of the valve.

2. Aerators won't run at the same time with the solar heating. They're used to cool the water.

I also don't have any intention of heating my pool...I live in one of the hottest regions on our planet The solar heating is for heating the spa and cooling the pool.

My sincerest apologies to you and Jim. I really had no business butting in. It looked obvious to me, but I didn't have my facts straight.

But I learned a lot, if that's any sort of excuse...

 

[Jimrahbe]

B,

In my mind, (what little is left), I think you would end up with the exact same problem you had with your initial modification...

With the water all going to the pool returns, I would not think it would matter where you tapped off the line... more water would go through the returns and not give you the pressure you want. With just the T nothing would be 'forcing' the water to go where you want it to go...

If this were my pool I would think about a separate small pump just for the sprayers.. High pressure low volume. Add the pump between the "T" and the 2 way in your pic... You could turn on/off with an ET relay and not have to worry about any additional valves.

How many spray heads are there???

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[bizzle]

There are only two spray heads.

The other consideration is that my implementation is pre-SWG, which may or may not be important. But to the extent that aerators are intended to aerosol the water, a post-SWG implementation might be less than ideal.

I do share your concern, but the tee off from the filter outlet is something I remember seeing on our condo association's pool and in a few videos on the internet. In that orientation, there is a good 15+ feet of flow after the tee before hitting the return Jandy. I *think* the issues I had were more about the aerator return plumbed in series after the pool return and here I am placing them in front of it (by a large margin).

The bottom line might come down to this, though. I can't put my pad back together today without shelling out $90 bucks for a 3way. I can put a tee in today and replace it with a 3way later if it doesn't work If I do that, I would end up with the exact configuration you were suggesting but pre-SWG vs. post-SWG.

Dirk, please, no apologies necessary. If I wanted a private conversation with Jim I'd have pm'ed him I appreciate your input and everyone else who participates in my threads. I'm not offended one bit and didn't consider your input as butting in.

 

[Dirk]

Well, thanks, kind of you to say. In that case... :blah: