Will going salt help with algae? A pHin Discussion

Re: Will going salt help with algae? A pHin Discussion

Oh that pHIn is a bit of marketing genius. They're selling convenience and simplicity packaged with technology and apps. For the younger generation that's as appealing as a candy shop is to toddlers. They will be absolutely minting cash on those pods and the level of advice supplied has left the OP with a pool that keeps going green because the chlorine level they recommend can't hope to do it's job at those CYA levels. Just lucky it's been algae not bacteria.

All your chemicals for only $600 a year, but wait there's more we've worked out a very special deal for the viewers at home.........................
 
Re: Will going salt help with algae? A pHin Discussion

$299 for a year's worth of chemicals delivered is a fair deal I think.

Do you have a link to what you recommend buying?
Last season I spent $15 on a bottle of CYA, and about $24 in bleach before I fired up the SWG. How big is your pool?

The test kits we recommend are the TF-100 from TFTestKits and the Taylor K2006C
 
Re: Will going salt help with algae? A pHin Discussion

Why the acid wash? Do you have staining your trying to get rid of? Calcium scale? I have no idea if $800 is reasonable, maybe someone with a plaster pool can chime in.

Copper pipes are not an issue for a SWG. It should be plumbed as the last item on the pad, after the heater. As mentioned above you will want to keep an eye on your calcium saturation index (CSI).

Read through the links Marty posted if you haven't already. Most of us spend way less than $300 a year on chemicals. If you decide to go SWG you may want to look at automation as well. It's a nice way to control you pool from your phone/tablet.
 
Re: Will going salt help with algae? A pHin Discussion

I only spend around $100/yr on my pool. A couple of bags of salt and 4 or 5 gallons of muriatic acid throughout the season, and that's about it. Maybe a dose of CYA if necessary.
 
Re:  Will going salt help with algae? A pHin Discussion

Why the acid wash? Do you have staining your trying to get rid of? Calcium scale? I have no idea if $800 is reasonable, maybe someone with a plaster pool can chime in.

Copper pipes are not an issue for a SWG. It should be plumbed as the last item on the pad, after the heater. As mentioned above you will want to keep an eye on your calcium saturation index (CSI).

Read through the links Marty posted if you haven't already. Most of us spend way less than $300 a year on chemicals. If you decide to go SWG you may want to look at automation as well. It's a nice way to control you pool from your phone/tablet.
Thanks!
 
Ok so let's say I want to ditch pHin, but I love automation and want to control things from my phone, and also want to reduce the amount of work I do adding chlorine etc.

Would you recommend this Hayward automation and chlorination system? Amazon.com : Hayward Goldline PL-PLUS AquaPlus All-in-One Conrol and Salt Chlorination System : Swimming Pool Timers : Garden Outdoor

Is the Android app any good?

So this unit uses an ORP sensor to monitor the oxidation potential of the sanitized water. Realistically ORP measurements in stabilised outdoor pools are problematic as they work best with no stabiliser or very low levels of stabiliser so you have to run your chlorinator a lot more to compensate for increased losses to UV light. So realistically you need some stabiliser but this forms compounds that release the chlorine fast enough to sanitise but slows down the release enough to have a major impact on ORP sensors. In a stabilised pool, the ORP also varies for a given free chlorine level due to the interaction of the chlorine, the stabiliser and Ultraviolet light so the unit will be putting in more chlorine at some times and then there will be too much at others. The ORP sensors are also quite expensive so the maintenance costs are quite high. If you have an SWG set up at an appropriate output in a stabilised pool, the chlorine levels should be fairly stable and require little attention. ORP doesn't really add much to the package except cost and complexity.

It also monitors pH with a pH sensor and uses this to control acid dosing. pH control has the potential to be helpful however, the resolution and accuracy of most of the systems marketed by pool equipment companies is very poor. I notice that Hayward don't quote any data in the manual for the accuracy or resolution of the system (these are basic specs for any pH measurement system) from which I would suspect that the values are nothing to brag about. The better ones from pool companies here in Oz are typically 0.1 pH resolution ie they display pH to the nearest 0.1 pH unit. The accuracy of the units is typically also 0.1 pH unit and the worse ones are 0.2 pH units. So that accuracy number is the variability between readings. ie when the instrument displays 7.5 and the accuracy is 0.1 pH, you are somewhere between 7.4 and 7.6. For systems with a 0.2 accuracy, you are somewhere between 7.3 and 7.7. Most of these systems also use a single point calibration which is OK if the resolution is good enough. With 0.1 pH resolution that calibration point could be anywhere from 7.46 and 7.55 so you can add another half a pH unit to the width of the accuracy window on either end. In short these are often overpriced childrens toys using the cheapest and nastiest components the manufacturers can buy which fail early and are costly to maintain and have accuracy that you could achieve with test strips. If you're lucky you might be getting somewhere close to your target setpoint for pH but there is no guarantee of that. The electrodes and cables are unshielded so will get issues from ground loops and electric fields around pumps and chlorinators. For most of these systems they are using cheap rubbish at a very high price.

At present the only system I've seen aside from large scale commercial units that has the necessary resolution and accuracy to do the job properly is the BL121 from Hanna Instruments. It has resolution of 0.01 pH unit and accuracy of 0.05 pH units and you can choose to use a single point calibration close to the setpoint, which is simpler or you can do a 2 point calibration which is more accurate over a wider range of pH values. It is set up as an acid and liquid chlorine feeder so if you go with a chlorine generator you are buying an extra dosing pump and sensor that you don't really need. It also uses a combined pH and ORP sensor so when one or the other eventually dies you are replacing both. If you don't need ORP measurement you still pay for a far more expensive sensor. So it's not ideal either. Hanna also do a range of industrial pH controllers and I am currently exploring the options for using one of these with a solenoid to control a separate dosing pump. It will need a small cabinet and rack mounting and a separate probe and some wiring plus a small capacity pump but should still be reasonably economical compared to the other options and will actually be more accurate again (+/- 0.02 pH units) than the BL121. The one I'm looking at using is this one;

BL931700 pH Mini Controller - Hanna Instruments

Hanna do reasonable quality gear at a sensible price. You can spend a lot more on industrial controllers from people like Siemens, Endress and Hauser and so on, but for a back yard pool that is very much overkill.

I am a professional chemist with a son who is an electrician who does a lot of industrial instrumentation and automation so I have some advantages here in terms of putting it together and getting it installed and this option may not suit everyone.

Unless you have a new pool which is still curing, the pH drift in pools is fairly constant, so a simple pump set up on a timer to dose a controlled volume of acid per day is a cheaper more reliable option. You monitor and add a little extra if necessary but it will do the job pretty well most of the time. Automation systems do offer some benefits in terms of managing power usage, getting the best out of variable speed pumps and heaters and lighting and so on. If you want that by all means go ahead but be aware that for the basic pool chemistry these systems don't really offer much. KISS principle probably applies.
 

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Unless you have stains, the acid wash is mostly just a way to wear your plaster out more quickly by dissolving some of it to make it brighter. If you do have stains, there's less damaging ways of getting rid of them in most cases, but they take some effort on the part of the owner. Re-plastering is expensive so most people prefer to make their plaster last. But I'm sensing that cost isn't much of an issue for you, having an app is important, and you'd prefer that the pool look nicer.

Based on the track record and the bizarre readings from the phin thingie, it's pretty clear that isn't working.

If I've got that right and cost is not a big deal but I didn't really want to get involved and look after the pool myself, here's what I'd do. I'd go for it and have it professionally drained and acid washed to pretty it up and get rid of the CYA. For automation, Hayward, Pentair and Jandy are all fine, but what matters is that you get the right components. Take a look at them online (browse the manuals) or at a pool store and see which screens you like better. If you already have a variable speed pump, consider sticking with that brand, or allow for the cost of a new variable speed pump. Then post here and you'll probably find an expert who can help you choose the right bits and bobs for that brand.

Some automation systems offer a bundled SWG as part of deal. Your current situation is likely worse for your pipes than anything in your future if you follow Trouble Free Pool Care. Given those numbers, I suspect you'll find that your salt level is almost as high right now as it would be with SWG. Low pH is the enemy of copper, most often caused by indiscriminate use of solid chlorine.

Get the test kit so you can control what happens, and hire a pool service to do what you want done. They can adjust the SWG setting and correct the pH. You can test yourself periodically as an audit of what they're doing, but you'll need to learn TFPC to know what will keep your pool water reliably trouble free. If you don't go SWG, they can put liquid chlorine in, and leave you a measured jug for each day with the right amount to add. Include whatever you want the pool service to do (e.g. empty skimmer), but at the very least require that they brush the pool walls and floor every other week during summer, or get a robotic cleaner to do that and leave it in the pool. They can clean it out when they come. Be clear that you're in control of water chemistry decisions from the outset. If you have any questions along the way, just ask here.

If the pool service is too much ongoing cost, you can do it all yourself as described in about an hour a week during swim season, and an hour a month in winter.

Have fun with your decisions!
 
Re:  Will going salt help with algae? A pHin Discussion

I mean, it looks like 7.4 to me. More accurate than the test strips I had before where I had to judge by color shade. I'm red-green color blind for a start.
Hmm, that might make some manual testing the way "we" do it difficult.

The TA test uses a green to red transition in the text kits we use, so I suppose that would be a bit difficult for you. I'm thinking a smartphone app showing a RGB histogram would make this easy for you, I may experiment with doing just that tonight after work.

CH is red to blue.

pH is color match from yellow at the low end to pink at the high end and various shades in between.

Chlorine is pink to clear. However, Taylor specifically says this change can be seen by those with red colorbindness.

CYA doesn't use colors.
 
Ok so let's say I want to ditch pHin, but I love automation and want to control things from my phone, and also want to reduce the amount of work I do adding chlorine etc.

Would you recommend this Hayward automation and chlorination system? Amazon.com : Hayward Goldline PL-PLUS AquaPlus All-in-One Conrol and Salt Chlorination System : Swimming Pool Timers : Garden Outdoor

Is the Android app any good?

I'd start a new thread about automation if I were you.

Hayward, Pentair and Jandy are the three big players in pool equipment. You can't go wrong with any of them. I think pentair is the best and easiest to use for obvious reasons. Fill out your signature so we know what equipment you have. You'll get better and more specific responses that way.
 
Re:  Will going salt help with algae? A pHin Discussion

But as I say, I'm open to ditching pHin. See post above. [emoji4]
Then, how much Pool School have you read? Start with these:
ABCs of Water Chemistry
Recommended Pool Chemicals
How to Chlorinate Your Pool

That you have been following their system and get algae proves, their system does not work.

I'm an outlier here, I don;t have a SWCG, I use a liquid chlorine injection system. Funny thing, the chlorine comes from the laundry isle at the nearest Publix
 
Will going salt help with algae? (I have a SWCG) Not directly, but I like the feel and the convenience of constant sanitation and it sounds like you might as well. I can say that my pool has never once turned green since a friend turned me onto TFP. Is it really worth the cost for the chlorine generator? Probably not, but the day-to-day convenience overcomes the cost/hassle of maintaining it for me (the house came with it anyway).

In terms of pHin, most people here probably liken it to just taking a water sample to the pool store and (ignorantly) asking what you need and blindly following through. It might work but will cost way more. . I bought a TF100 but haven't gotten a refill yet so my reagents are a bit dated... nevertheless, I know enough to say "I'm not doing the shock you recommend, and I'm going to do (this and that, etc.) quite confidently.

I personally spend way less than 300 a year, more like probably 100-150 average, all in. The year I needed to replace my cell kicked the average up quite a bit, that was like 250 but I was able to do it myself!
 
Pooli: Since you haven't added your pool specifics to your signature, we still don't know what you are dealing with. But after stabilizing my pools with a swcg I spend less than $10.00 per month for muriatic acid. It does take 45 minutes per week for vacuuming one and because of dust, a variable bit longer for the other. I find that vacuuming while having a cuppa joe to be both relaxing and rewarding. Hardly an expense.
 
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