PHOSfree - Not Working...What did I do wrong?

[joesc230]

Hi all,

I know that PHOSfree isn't recommended using the TFP method, and that managing phosphates are not something to worry about if properly managing the pool the TFP way. However, I am closing my pool for the first time on my own (used a couple different companies in the past, both which I wasn't happy with, so I decided to do it on my own) and while prepping the pool, I decided to remove some metal stains that in my deep section and have been annoying me all year. I haven't had the time to take care of them until now.

To get rid of the metal stains, I bought STAINfree (and am planning to use METALfree, followed by a Culator to remove the metal from the water). I noticed that STAINfree recommends the water having 100ppb or lower of phosphates, so I measured the phosphate level and found that it was 300. I then bought Pool Magic Spring & Fall PHOSfree and added around 1.7 liters of it (as my pool is around 34,000 gallons and it says that 1 liter removes 300ppb of phosphates from 20,000 gallons.

It's been a few days and the phosphate level is still reading around 300. I have a waterfall going down from my spa to my pool, and the water is forming bubbles (not the typical bubbling that would happen from the water impact). It's definitely related to the PHOSfree, as the pool never did that prior. I made sure that the water was balanced prior to adding the PHOSfree. I backwashed the filter the day before, and after adding the PHOSfree the pressure has only gone up a little (nowhere near the level that would indicate a backwash being needed).

Here's a picture of what I mean regrading the bubbling:



My questions are:

- Does anyone have any ideas as to why the phosphate level didn't drop?
- Is the bubbling normal after application of PHOSfree, or does it indicate something's wrong?

Thanks so much for any info!

 

[BasicTek]

I still use phosfree because I bought a 4 pack before switching to TFP and I figure might as well use it (shouldn't hurt at maintenance levels) while I have it.

When I use it, the instructions say to shake up and pour into the skimmer, then It's important that I clean my filter prior because it seems to work by sitting in the filter (raises pressure, and adding lots raises pressure more)

There is a thread with all you could ever need to know about phosphates here. Phosfree is apparently one of the weakest phosphate removers, but they do have a heavy duty version.

I don't have any way of measuring them I just add a cup or two ever few weeks and the last time I had my water tested by Leslies (probably July) it was 0.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Keep in mind that reducing phosphates from 300ppb to near zero is a VERY small change and basically not something you would notice in terms of water clarity or pressure rise. How are you measuring phosphates?? Most tests have a very crude color scale and seeing the differences at that low a value is hard to do.

Also, PhosFree is basically junk. Not only does it have the lowest concentration of lanthanum chloride in it, it also contains a simple polymeric clarifier in it. You DO NOT want to add that to a pool with metal sequestrants in it or else you can cause a cloudy mess (the clarifier and sequestrant will bind to one another and cause cloudiness). I would not be at all surprised if that foaminess is a result of the clarifier in the phosFree.

 

[joesc230]

Keep in mind that reducing phosphates from 300ppb to near zero is a VERY small change and basically not something you would notice in terms of water clarity or pressure rise. How are you measuring phosphates?? Most tests have a very crude color scale and seeing the differences at that low a value is hard to do.

Also, PhosFree is basically junk. Not only does it have the lowest concentration of lanthanum chloride in it, it also contains a simple polymeric clarifier in it. You DO NOT want to add that to a pool with metal sequestrants in it or else you can cause a cloudy mess (the clarifier and sequestrant will bind to one another and cause cloudiness). I would not be at all surprised if that foaminess is a result of the clarifier in the phosFree.

I'm using the Natural Chemistry phosphate strips. Yeah - they're the color scale type and I agree that it is hard to see small differences. I'm pretty confident that the color hasn't changed much before and after the test. Do you know of a more accurate phosphate test?

I haven't put sequestrants in the water for over a year. Do they stay in the water long term? If not, then I'm thinking that the Phosfree isn't reacting in that way, unless there's something else in the water that I'm not thinking of, but I doubt it because I follow the TFP methods (other than this Phosfree addition). Is there a phosphate remover that you'd recommend more than the Phosfree?

 

[Chemnut]

Use the industrial one, the one you bought is the cheap "pool Closing" chemicals that pool stores love to use for add ons. Rather than stain free $$$ you can maybe buy one called stain remover from your local store.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I use SeaKlear Phosphate Remover Commercial Grade. It treats up to 9000ppb in 10,000 gal per quart.

For testing I use the Taylor K-1106 phosphate tester. It’s a color comparison chart but it’s easy to see color changes below 250ppb and can go all the way up to 6000ppb.

 

[joesc230]

I use SeaKlear Phosphate Remover Commercial Grade. It treats up to 9000ppb in 10,000 gal per quart.

For testing I use the Taylor K-1106 phosphate tester. It’s a color comparison chart but it’s easy to see color changes below 250ppb and can go all the way up to 6000ppb.

Thanks for the info. I'm going to order this stuff now and hope that it gives me better results and readings.

- - - Updated - - -

Use the industrial one, the one you bought is the cheap "pool Closing" chemicals that pool stores love to use for add ons. Rather than stain free $$$ you can maybe buy one called stain remover from your local store.

Thanks for the info - do you know the brand name of the remover you'd recommend?

 

[Swampwoman]

To get rid of the metal stains, I bought STAINfree (and am planning to use METALfree, followed by a Culator to remove the metal from the water). I noticed that STAINfree recommends the water having 100ppb or lower of phosphates, so I measured the phosphate level and found that it was 300.

As you may have gathered, you're victim to a "Natural chemistry" cross marketing ploy here that has nothing to do with anything real, IMHO. Because I use phosphonic metal sequestrant, I've successfully treated stains with the same components as what's in stain free with tens of thousands of ppbs of phosphate and the stains lift just fine.

If you want to manage metals, you can use ascorbic acid in place of stain free with real sequestrant, such as HEDP-based Jacks Magic or Metal Magic. NC's Metal Free is citric acid and won't actually sequester metal properly. Culator has in my experience been equally ineffective.

Do you know where your metals are coming from? If your stains are iron or copper?

If they're minor iron stains, you can spot treat them with ascorbic acid mixed with water loaded in a dishwashing wand, for example, followed by a bit of sequestrant.

But phosphonic based sequestrants that are most effective at sequestering metal WILL leave you with phosphates - that in general and with TFP maintenance at the [fc/cya][/FC/cya] will not cause you any problems.

Ymmv, but I intensely dislike the deliberate misdirection of that company's marketing and I constantly see people suckered into using their "sequestrant" who don't understand why it doesn't work. It doesn't usually work because its not actually what TFP means by "sequestrant." There are other types of sequestrant that are not phosphonic-based but polymer based, though common experience has been that they're less effective and barely compatible with FC.

So, you need to decide first whether you're going to chase phosphates or effectively resolve/manage metals. If the metal staining is your priority, treating for phosphates at the moment isn't productive, particularly for such a small amount.

Instead, treat the stains, and in spring if you want, use Seaklear to manage your phosphate level from the spent sequestrant if you so desire.

 

[Catanzaro]

I use SeaKlear Phosphate Remover Commercial Grade. It treats up to 9000ppb in 10,000 gal per quart.

For testing I use the Taylor K-1106 phosphate tester. It’s a color comparison chart but it’s easy to see color changes below 250ppb and can go all the way up to 6000ppb.

Matt:

When do you actually use the product? As a maintenance or if and when needed? Just curious as I stopped using any removed (cheap ones of course) after joining TFP and gave my bottle to the local pizzeria in exchange for 2 large pizza's. Thanks!

 

[duraleigh]

joining TFP and gave my bottle to the local pizzeria in exchange for 2 large pizza's.

You got a really good deal!

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Matt:

When do you actually use the product? As a maintenance or if and when needed? Just curious as I stopped using any removed (cheap ones of course) after joining TFP and gave my bottle to the local pizzeria in exchange for 2 large pizza's. Thanks!

Hahahaha...pizza doesn’t exist out here west of the Mississippi (at least not anything remotely like the NY style pizza I grew up on) and so I’d have to trade mine for some smoked meats or donuts....

I use it once per season in the spring just before “opening” when I tear down my DE filter. My phosphate levels are typically very low (<500 ppb) as I have no input sources of phosphates. Because of that, my treatment dose is about 8oz. The 32oz bottle I purchased (~ $40) is on its 3rd year and so my treatment cost is roughly $10 per year. Because I have DE filter, the hazy water caused by the chemical reaction lasts about 8 hours and the pool is back to its usual clarity by the next day. I try to start off the season with zero phosphates and only measure them once or twice along the way.

 

[joesc230]

As you may have gathered, you're victim to a "Natural chemistry" cross marketing ploy here that has nothing to do with anything real, IMHO. Because I use phosphonic metal sequestrant, I've successfully treated stains with the same components as what's in stain free with tens of thousands of ppbs of phosphate and the stains lift just fine.

If you want to manage metals, you can use ascorbic acid in place of stain free with real sequestrant, such as HEDP-based Jacks Magic or Metal Magic. NC's Metal Free is citric acid and won't actually sequester metal properly. Culator has in my experience been equally ineffective.

Do you know where your metals are coming from? If your stains are iron or copper?

If they're minor iron stains, you can spot treat them with ascorbic acid mixed with water loaded in a dishwashing wand, for example, followed by a bit of sequestrant.

But phosphonic based sequestrants that are most effective at sequestering metal WILL leave you with phosphates - that in general and with TFP maintenance at the [fc/cya][/fc/cya] will not cause you any problems.

Ymmv, but I intensely dislike the deliberate misdirection of that company's marketing and I constantly see people suckered into using their "sequestrant" who don't understand why it doesn't work. It doesn't usually work because its not actually what TFP means by "sequestrant." There are other types of sequestrant that are not phosphonic-based but polymer based, though common experience has been that they're less effective and barely compatible with FC.

So, you need to decide first whether you're going to chase phosphates or effectively resolve/manage metals. If the metal staining is your priority, treating for phosphates at the moment isn't productive, particularly for such a small amount.

Instead, treat the stains, and in spring if you want, use Seaklear to manage your phosphate level from the spent sequestrant if you so desire.

Thanks so much for the detailed advice. I truly appreciate it.

Yes, I definitely was worried about falling into a endless marketing loop. I felt pressured to get everything going since I should be closing my pool soon, and wish I posted on here before purchasing the Natural Chemistry products.

I should have mentioned that bought the Stain Free "Extra Strength" - so at least I can use that since that's really just absorbic acid, right?

As far as a sequestrant goes, I'd be fine using a phosphonic one if the phosphates won't be an issue otherwise...I was only trying to reduce the phosphates because the Stain Free Extra Strength instructions said to do so...but it sounds like they just want you to do that because they hope you'll buy PhosFree. The metal staining is definitely my priority.

I'm usually able to treat the stains in my pool with Vitamin C tablets, but there's a pretty large stained area (a dull yellow color) in my deepest section (right by the drains), and I'm not sure which metal it is that's causing it. I had done a SLAM earlier this year (to treat an early algae bloom) and that didn't get rid of the stains, so I was thinking it's metal related. I tried using one of those Jack's Magic ID kits but I couldn't confidently determine which of the products was actually working in that area so I just figured I'd give the absorbic acid treatment a try since I do have a few smaller stains in other areas of the pool as well and figured at least some of them would be treated by the absorbic acid. Is there a better way to test the stain type than the Jack's Magic kit?

 

[Swampwoman]

In general, if chlorine will remove a stain, it is organic in nature. If vit c will remove a stain, it is most likely iron.

Vit c on copper might remove it, but also is likely to darken it first, eg turn blackish. Copper stain removal is typically better using MA in a spot utensil or sulfamic acid treatment (eg Jack's #2 I think) but sulfamic acid treatment will skew your cc readings for several weeks.

If you're not on well or adding salt, is it possible you have minerals leaching from your rock work? Was it sealed? The first goal with metal management is to try to determine the source and where possible, eliminate it. A second strategy to help avoid staining is to control your ph on the bottom end of the range, eg 7.2-7.4ish.

A third strategy is to maintain sequestrant. For fairly fresh iron stains, I've also had good luck directly applying Metal Magic, even though it is a sequestrant and not a stain removal product

 

[joesc230]

In general, if chlorine will remove a stain, it is organic in nature. If vit c will remove a stain, it is most likely iron.

Vit c on copper might remove it, but also is likely to darken it first, eg turn blackish. Copper stain removal is typically better using MA in a spot utensil or sulfamic acid treatment (eg Jack's #2 I think) but sulfamic acid treatment will skew your cc readings for several weeks.

If you're not on well or adding salt, is it possible you have minerals leaching from your rock work? Was it sealed? The first goal with metal management is to try to determine the source and where possible, eliminate it. A second strategy to help avoid staining is to control your ph on the bottom end of the range, eg 7.2-7.4ish.

A third strategy is to maintain sequestrant. For fairly fresh iron stains, I've also had good luck directly applying Metal Magic, even though it is a sequestrant and not a stain removal product

So I did a Jack's Magic ID test again and I'm pretty confident now that the one that worked was Stain Solution #3 (O2 Safe Shock) followed by Stain Solution #2 (The Copper and Scale Stuff). I took a look at how to apply this treatment, and it seems very expensive to treat the water this way.

Jack's Magic's treatment instructions say to use:
- 5 pounds of Solution #3 per 10,000 gallons of water
- 10 pounds of Solution #2 per 10,000 gallons
- 12 ounces of Purple Stuff per 10,000 gallons WEEKLY during the treatment

This comes to over $400 in Jack's Magic products. Is this another one of those marketing ploys? Or is this really the right way to take care of this issue? I'm willing to do this if needed, but just wanted to make sure it's not similar to the Natural Chemistry situation.

Does anyone know if I really need to circulate this stuff through the entire pool to get everything taken care of? The staining is mostly 2 decent sized stains in the deep end of the pool, with a couple of very tiny stains elsewhere.

It also says that the treatment can take several weeks, so I'm thinking that I should wait until I open the pool to do it, since I really should be closing over the next week or so. Then, it also says to isolate the heater while doing the treatment. I don't have a bypass for the heater, so I'm not sure what to do about that.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

If you have copper stains, they are very difficult to get rid of and require significant chemical additives to remove them. Problem is, your only putting the copper back into solution, not getting rid of it. Hence the need for the weekly dosing of the Purple Stuff.

My suggestion would be to remove the stains using their removal process but then dump the pool water and refill. It’s the only way to ensure that the copper is gone and it will be cheaper in the long run.

 

[joesc230]

If you have copper stains, they are very difficult to get rid of and require significant chemical additives to remove them. Problem is, your only putting the copper back into solution, not getting rid of it. Hence the need for the weekly dosing of the Purple Stuff.

My suggestion would be to remove the stains using their removal process but then dump the pool water and refill. It’s the only way to ensure that the copper is gone and it will be cheaper in the long run.

Ok, thanks for the info. I took a look and the copper must be coming from my heater, as I have a RayPak 406A, and according to this page, the heater has a "copper input": Raypak Residential Pool /Spa Heaters - Pool/Spa Heaters, 206A-406A


That page also says that there's an automatic bypass built into the heater - does anyone know if I can use that to bypass this heater while doing the copper treatment? Based on what I'm reading I don't think so, but figured I'd ask. Otherwise, am I correct that I'll need to install an external bypass in order to do the Jack's Magic treatment while avoiding damaging the copper in the heater?

Also - it seems like the copper will be a recurring issue for me, unless I always use a sequestrant, right?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

The bypass described in the heater manual is an internal bypass inside the manifold that mixes cold pool water with a small fraction of hot water that is generated by the heater. It is not sufficient as a true bypass loop. If you are going to do a chemical treatment like the one from Jack's Magic for removing copper, then you need to remove your heater from service and bypass the plumbing.

It is not typical for heaters to cause copper staining UNLESS your pool water chemistry has gone wildly off the rails. It takes low pH (<6.8) and time for copper heat exchangers to release copper into the water. You should have the water tested for metals to see if copper is present. Good copper tests cost quite a bit som you may have to go to the pool store for the test.

 

[Swampwoman]

Can you get a better picture of the two stains in question?

You might be able to spot treat them with dry acid in a sock. Its cheap and worth a try before going down the long and pricey Jacks route.

That's what I'd try next. The full jacks treatment would be a last resort. But you will need sequestrant after you lift the stain.

Ps...I understand the temptation to leave it til spring, but stains lift better fresh. Its your call

 

[joesc230]

Hi all,

I never got a chance to take care of the staining at the end of last pool season, due to the weather getting cold fast and me being worried about running the pool too much longer. I recently opened the pool and (after shocking, etc) the staining looks the same. Since I already bought it, I'm thinking to use the STAINfree Extra Strength, since it's really just ascorbic acid, to see if it removes the staining. I know it will remove at least some of the small ones that are around the pool (based on testing I did). The instructions for STAINfree say that I should use METALfree afterwards - based on this thread, am I right that it would be better if I use Purple Stuff instead of the METALfree? I already have a bunch of Purple Stuff that I bought at the end of last season but didn't use yet.

Thanks!

 

[Swampwoman]

Yes, as in my experience, Metal Free hasn’t shown to be effective for many posters as it’s not HEDP.