Nightmare pool install, need advice..

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Re: Nightmare pool install, need advice..

Another option is to get another company to come out and look at it, document, document, and document some more. Get a written evaluation from them to fix the issues (including removal and re-installation if necessary). Show to your PB and tell him he has 5 days to make a decision to do it or not. If he says no, have the work done by the other company and be prepared to go to court to recover the rework amount from the PB. If it is a small PB, even if you win, it could be hard to collect.
 
Re: Nightmare pool install, need advice..

well just when I thought things couldn't look worse. I texted the PB today to ask him to give me a call so we can discuss the concrete prior to sending someone out to remove the pool forms/coping the next day. He never responded but the concrete guys showed up randomly at 9pm and started cutting in control joints. When I originally complained to the PB about the cold joints that are an eye sore (as well as all the other issues) he told me not to worry that he would have them cut a control joint into the cold joint so that it would look good. Well they left and I went outside and they cut the control joint about a foot to the left of the cold joint making it look even more obvious with two parallel lines running next to each other. This does not feel like a solution to me. I will be calling the PB in the morning and see what he says. Here are some pics of the control joints next to the cold joint.


*I can't get the pics to load I will try again in the morning.
 
Re: Nightmare pool install, need advice..

Judging by the pics the guys that placed the concrete were no professionals. I done concrete for a few years and still do it on occasion. I'm far from Profesional but even if can make a cold joint invisible or almost invisible.... I would not settle for anything but complete removal. It should have had expansion joints, relief cuts or joints, drains. Then after curing and before any pool water gets on it to stain it should be sealed...
 
Re: Nightmare pool install, need advice..

Yes, expansion joints still need to be cut within a couple days of pouring even with fiber embedded concrete. Ours were cut the day following. Also, there should have been a channel drain placed along the edge of the existing patio because obviously the concrete would pitch away from the pool. The concrete guys should have known this. Or they did and didnt inform you to save some money for themselves. As far as the finish of the concrete goes, yes, that is a very poor job. I would have them rip it out and not tell them you are going to find another reputable contractor re-do the job.
 
Re: Nightmare pool install, need advice..

*Update. I texted the pool guy yesterday told him to call me BEFORE removing forms and coping around pool and got no response, then last night at 9pm concrete guys show up to remove forms and cut control joints (in the dark, concrete was poured on Friday, the cut joints on Monday at 9pm). This morning I woke up and the coping forms are all removed from around the pool and sanded! They have never showed up this quick in their entire time working on this pool. The coping around the pool looks horrible. Has gauges out of it, looks like it was hit with a pick axe and is malformed/bulging in areas. The cut control joints to try and drain the water from pooling in certain areas but it is not working, water is still pooling. PB's solution is everything is great with the job and he will put a seal over it. WOW. Not sure how that will help the pooling water and I do not want a stain, I am not into colors on concrete personally. Here are some pics...


 
Re: Nightmare pool install, need advice..

If it was me, I would demand the entire amount for the concrete back. It will require a court date I am sure. Perhaps if you file he will start to get the picture.
 
Re: Nightmare pool install, need advice..

That's terrible.

I don't remember if you answered this or not - was the concrete deck installed with a steel mesh bonded to the pool bonding wires?

At this point, all you could do is have a core sample pulled from the deck and sent to a petrography lab for analysis. If the concrete sample is shown to be defective (low compressive yield strength) and if there is no bonding grid in the deck, then you can make the claim in court that the deck as-poured is defective and, without proper bonding, it is an electrical safety hazard that fails the latest versions of the National Electrical Code (NEC) for pool construction. Determining that and getting a court date may make the PB realize that you mean business and are willing to go the distance to have this corrected. The improper drainage alone requires serious money to fix.

You may need to tell him that you refuse to make anymore payments and to stop work at the site until this issue is settled. He will try to scare you by saying he'll put a mechanic's lien on your home, but that's just a scare tactic. Depending on the lien laws in your state, it could take a lot of effort on the part of the contractor to get a lien and you can often contest them and have them dropped. In some states, if the contractor doesn't file a claim of damages with a court, a lien will expire automatically.

You should contact a lawyer ASAP to determine what your rights are here.

My condolences for all this stress, we all feel bad for you...
 

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Re: Nightmare pool install, need advice..

JoyfulNoise said:
That's terrible.

I don't remember if you answered this or not - was the concrete deck installed with a steel mesh bonded to the pool bonding wires?

At this point, all you could do is have a core sample pulled from the deck and sent to a petrography lab for analysis. If the concrete sample is shown to be defective (low compressive yield strength) and if there is no bonding grid in the deck, then you can make the claim in court that the deck as-poured is defective and, without proper bonding, it is an electrical safety hazard that fails the latest versions of the National Electrical Code (NEC) for pool construction. Determining that and getting a court date may make the PB realize that you mean business and are willing to go the distance to have this corrected. The improper drainage alone requires serious money to fix.

You may need to tell him that you refuse to make anymore payments and to stop work at the site until this issue is settled. He will try to scare you by saying he'll put a mechanic's lien on your home, but that's just a scare tactic. Depending on the lien laws in your state, it could take a lot of effort on the part of the contractor to get a lien and you can often contest them and have them dropped. In some states, if the contractor doesn't file a claim of damages with a court, a lien will expire automatically.

You should contact a lawyer ASAP to determine what your rights are here.

My condolences for all this stress, we all feel bad for you...
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Thank you for your helpful comments. The pool apparently was bonded correctly as it had the steel (fence like structure) around the pool with copper wire going through it that the inspector from our town had to approve before they poured concrete. They did not put steel/rebar anywhere else though as they said that it wasn't needed as they were using fiber concrete. The concrete company that supplies the concrete (not the guys who did the job) came out and said the concrete looks fully stable and should have no problem holding up but he did not do any testing. *UPDATE- The PB just came out to look at it two days ago and brought a concrete specialist (concrete deco painter etc, his business card says "makes ugly concrete pretty") and he suggested pulling up a few sections of the concrete that are really bad and repouring only in those areas. He does not want to pull up the concrete in the area that is pooling toward our house and recommended putting more cuts in the concrete which I do not particularly like. The guy that was with him was saying that removing several of the sections and repouring could look worse so I should just live with the imperfections on the areas that aren't that bad (by his estimations) and just do the area by the skimmers/filter and then do a concrete stain on the whole pool deck. I do not feel this is a solution as I personally prefer raw concrete over paints/stains and it still does not address all the mispoured areas. I feel they are trying to mish mash the whole thing together to be acceptable but I am not seeing how this is going to look decent. The PB said he is afraid to pull up any of the sections as he is afraid it will damage the pool so I am really not sure what the solution is at this point, if I should try and hire another concrete company to come out or let them attempt to fix it. At this point I think the PB may be playing games or buying time. He texted me about 4 days ago after I texted him photos and said it looked terrible and he was appalled but then he just sent one of his guys out today to clean the pool and while the guy was talking to me, told me that the PB told him the deck looks great so I have no idea how to take this guy. I am now waiting for him to let me know what he is planning on doing. I just know in the end, I do not want to pay for this poor concrete work.
 
Re: Nightmare pool install, need advice..

We are still in the process of having our fiberglass pool put in by our pool builder and it has been one disaster after another. *Backstory- I'm not sure about our pool builder. He subcontracted out the pool installation and so far everything has been pretty sloppy work. After our pool was set my husband had to go out and fill the gaps around the pool as they were left with huge holes between the fiberglass pool frame and dirt (as the concrete guys came to pour and it wasn't ready due to not being packed in properly). The forms (coping) for around the pool were not put on correctly so the coping forms when removed was chipped off in places (looks like someone took a pick axe to it) and terribly malformed in other areas (having a good coping hangover in some areas and not in other areas where it was flat with the pool). The concrete guys poured the deck and made tons of mistakes (the concrete was here for over an hr before they got here, they had the company remove the retardent as they thought it was a small job and found out they underestimated the amount of concrete and it was blazing hot when they got here at 3pm to pour). Well the concrete has two cold joints that are very obvious when you look out our back door at the pool and the concrete holds water in a couple of places (I made another post with lots of pics about a month ago). The pool also started leaking about an inch of water a day as we realized the concrete guys yanked up on the skimmer so they could pour the concrete and ended up breaking it so we were losing water there.

The concrete guys came back and said it looked like a good job and refused to tear out and replace the concrete and ended up abandoning the job. The PB decided the best choice was to tear out the two worst spots (by the skimmer that had a horrible cold joint and held water) and another spot that the coping was malformed and was rounded upward at the edge. His solution was to tear those spots out and repour the concrete and then put a stain. He hired a new concrete guy to come out and remove those areas and repour. He ended up lucking out as the pool was leaking underground in the exact spots they tore out so he was able to repair the skimmer leak as well as the piping leak under the other piece of concrete on the other side (which he said was due to the installers forgetting to seal the piping after they laid it in). So here we are to now. He refused to tear out and repour all the concrete, he wants to only replace those two areas of concrete and have a guy of his build out on the bad areas of coping around the pool with filler to make the coping level with the rest of the pool. So now we have older concrete (about 30-45 days old) next to new concrete pieces and I am worried about color matching as well as what the coping is going to look like being built out (when his guy originally said he couldn't do it because it wouldn't look good etc, now he says he can miraculously). The PB's solution is to stain the concrete. Personally I do not like the look of stained concrete ( i like the color and look of raw concrete/ just a personal opinion) and I looked up "his guy's" work on concrete staining and I did not like even one photo in his portfolio (colors, application etc). One of his concrete decks looked like he spray painted multiple colors all over and it just looked terrible to me so that scares me what this will look like. I told the PB I prefer raw concrete and he said they will make it a light stain to look like raw concrete (I don't like the darker grey color which they suggested to me as being a raw concrete look). I am also concerned due to my severe allergies about VOC's and fumes from any chemical sprays used on the deck (does anyone know if this would be an issue, I have no idea what to expect with a deck stain).

Overall the PB is being pretty forceful with what he wants to do and is just saying, you will be happy with it when it is done. Seeing the prior work done here, I am not too optimistic. So at this point I am not happy with the concrete around the pool as we will have both new concrete in areas next to 45+ day old concrete in areas. Do you think this will eventually look fine together? Has anyone heard of a light stain that can match raw concrete (a whitish/grey shade)? Are stains a good solution? Any issues with allergies and concrete stains? Anyone ever heard of building up coping and do you think it would be a viable solution (will last/not chip etc). This whole thing has been a nightmare from start to finish. They started this fiberglass pool install on July 24th and here we are on Sept 21st still not complete.. Any suggestions, ideas etc would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! *I will try and get photos put up in a few minutes...
 
Re: Nightmare pool install, need advice..

Here are some photos of the bad coping (malformed/chunks missing)... the bad skimmer area (which was removed and they plan on repouring today and the last photo is of the area that is holding water that they don't plan on fixing..
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The photos below show the areas that the PB wanted removed, that he plans on pouring and then staining at a later date (which I am not sure I will like as I preferred the raw concrete)..
 
Re: Nightmare pool install, need advice..

I would not go with stain. Nothing put on concrete is permanent due to the porous nature of concrete. It might look good when it is done but I think will only last a year or so and have to be restained.

That coping job is pretty bad why didn't they use a pre-formed coping? We went with bluestone which looks fantastic and no way to screw it up they just lay it down.
 
Re: Nightmare pool install, need advice..

I am more concerned with the backfill issue that you touched on than the deck. How was the hole backfilled after the pool was dropped in? Was any sand or gravel spread on the base to level it before the pool was dropped in? Do you have any pictures of that process or were you around when it was done? Did they use sand or fine gravel to backfill the sides? And was it washed in as it was added? Improper backfilling is the primary cause of FG structural failures down the road. Just tossing dirt into the voids before cementing is not advisable as you shouldn't use dirt as backfill. Dirt compresses and shrinks in size dramatically over time leaving voids where the shell can bow out or crack. I would get in the pool and go all around the sides and bang on the walls and seats and stairs. You'll note how it sounds when you hit an area that has solid fill behind it like down low on a wall. If you have areas where you get a hollow sound that is not good. In regards to the deck, the cantilever looks pretty shoddy and although staining might blend it all into consistent look, it's not permanent and would have to be reapplied over time. I feel badly for you because it appears that you signed up with a PB that doesn't actually have any control over his product or install and I fear this will not end well for you. If you still owe him money I would definitely not pay it until you are happy.
 
Re: Nightmare pool install, need advice..

keithw said:
I am more concerned with the backfill issue that you touched on than the deck. How was the hole backfilled after the pool was dropped in? Was any sand or gravel spread on the base to level it before the pool was dropped in? Do you have any pictures of that process or were you around when it was done? Did they use sand or fine gravel to backfill the sides? And was it washed in as it was added? Improper backfilling is the primary cause of FG structural failures down the road. Just tossing dirt into the voids before cementing is not advisable as you shouldn't use dirt as backfill. Dirt compresses and shrinks in size dramatically over time leaving voids where the shell can bow out or crack. I would get in the pool and go all around the sides and bang on the walls and seats and stairs. You'll note how it sounds when you hit an area that has solid fill behind it like down low on a wall. If you have areas where you get a hollow sound that is not good. In regards to the deck, the cantilever looks pretty shoddy and although staining might blend it all into consistent look, it's not permanent and would have to be reapplied over time. I feel badly for you because it appears that you signed up with a PB that doesn't actually have any control over his product or install and I fear this will not end well for you. If you still owe him money I would definitely not pay it until you are happy.
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Yes, I was home when they backfilled. They used sand and pea gravel on the very bottom (I was not aware that sand was used until my husband recently told me which I was very unhappy with but he said they only used a little bit of sand and then pea gravel to backfill). Then they used dirt and gravel to pack in the sides. I am frustrated because (we only got to go in the pool once in order to get a huge rock out that they dropped in with the skid steer) when we went in the pool it felt hollow under the stairs as well as under the formed seat that is in the deep end. I brought this up to the PB and he said that is normal and part of having a fiberglass pool and that it will settle with time. I know I cannot trust a thing this guy says, he reminds me of a shady used car salesman (I wouldn't have even used him for this job but he is the ONLY person around us that installs fiberglass pools and he apparently has awards from San Juan from 20 years of installation- smh). He has received the majority of the check for this $55K+ job but we still owe him around $6-9K for the concrete, tiles, coping and the extra filtration system. I do not feel like I should have to pay for this concrete and now I am worried about the hollow spots now that you mentioned it, because I know now he probably wasn't being honest about it :/

Overall I feel stuck as they are coming to pour those two spots tomorrow, I do not want sealed/painted/stained concrete or patching done to the coping (as I have read others on this forum who had theirs done and said it looked worse than if they would have left it). So at this point I am considering refusing to pay for any of the concrete (although this will be tricky as 5ft of concrete is included with the install and would be hard to figure out). I just don't see how I am going to be happy either way 1) I do not pay and am left with mismatched concrete and terrible looking coping. 2)He stains it and patches the coping so I have something I didn't want (stained concrete) that will likely have to be re-stained and re-patched at a later time. The only solution I felt was acceptable was to tear the whole thing out and re-pour it which is clear he will never agree to, so I am left needing to figure out where to go from here :(
 
Re: Nightmare pool install, need advice..

Erealpixie said:
..... The only solution I felt was acceptable was to tear the whole thing out and re-pour it which is clear he will never agree to, so I am left needing to figure out where to go from here :(
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Then I would have fired him on the spot and told him he was not seeing another dime. He’d go away screaming mad and threatening to sue or put a mechanics lien on your home, etc, etc. 99% of the time that’s all bluster and hot air. Then I’d start saving up to have the concrete done properly. As for the shell not being set properly, it’s a risk you’ll have to live with but not much to do about unless you rip up the entire backyard.

You can’t squeeze blood from a stone and your PB is making it clear that he’s not going to listen to you and just wants to be done with your job. I’d give him his wish and send him packing....

I would not have any concrete poured until the FG manufacturer gives you the final ok. Just call the PB and tell him not to pour. The concrete truck can be cancelled.
 

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