pH keeps rising

[Avo1]

Hi,

I know this has been asked before many times. There is sooo much to look through that it is making my head spin. There are also a lot of old threads and a lot of threads that just stop without any solution.

So please bear or beer with me.

Refer below

Brisbane QLD Australia
Concrete 42000 Litre Pool (11000 Gallons)
Pebblecrete interior
Glass water/step tiles
Paramount PC2000 in floor cleaning
Pentair Tagelus TA60D filter with Glass media (1-3 micron M10 & M20)
Pentair easy touch automated
Pentair VS intelliFlo pump
Multi Cyclone 50
Enviroswim ES3 sanitiser (operates with in floor cleaner and skimmer i.e. on when the pump is on)
Commissioned end of September 2016
In floor cleaner run times 1.5 hours twice per day – total 3 hours
Skimmer run times 1.5 hours twice per day – total 3 hours
Total sanitisation – 6 hours per day.

I am having major issues controlling my pH. It creeps up from pH 7.2 to over 8 in under 4 days.

My concrete pool is now over a year old and requires 3 to 4 litres of acid per week to keep the pH around 7.2 – 7.4, preferred pH for Enviroswim sanitising system (copper/Silver, oxidiser and ultrasonic) and this is in winter or summer with no bathers. I get very little leaf material in the pool unless it is very windy which is not that often.

Enviroswim preferred levels
Alk – 80 to 120
CH – 200 to 300
Copper – 0.1 to 0.3

When back washing I have noticed the water was light blue. After some research I believe this is caused by the high pH, making the copper release from suspension thus getting caught in the filter. There were also blue stains in the bottom of the pool, mainly around the in floor and down jets. Would this be correct? I have never had the copper over 0.2.

I have tried different situations i.e.
Different Alkalinity levels, 30 to 150, mainly 60 to 130 – problem remains
Enviroswim off for several months – problem remains
Pool pump off for 1 month – problem slightly slowed

My pool has never turned green (even when off for approx. 3 months - winter), only very slightly opaque every now and then but I think that may occur when I put in a heap of acid?

I use a Taylors test kit (K-2005C) for all my testings and have had several results compared to as many swim shops and I have found my results more reliable. Most shops were spot on to close but two shops have said some of my results were wrong but when they ran another test they got completely different results again….. they say there machine must be due for calibration.... I have also had another pool company visit twice with their Taylors kit and we had the same results both times.

The guys from Enviroswim and the pool man that visited say there is something wrong with the interior of the pool but……. The peblers who came out to re acid wash the pool said NO WAY, IT CANNOT BE THE INTERIOR!

The pool builder has drained the pool and re acid washed the interior early August 2017 and now the problem seems to be slightly worse?

I have been told that no one has ever seen or heard of this before..... until I found this website - YAY!

What really ANNOYS me is that I have spent a huge, massive, astronomical, no one would pay this amount of money to have a LOW MAINTENANCE and LOW CHEMICAL POOL and it has been the absolute OPPOSITE! 'insert one million swear words here!'.

I have had ongoing dramas with the pool builder so there is a lot more to this story - maybe for another thread later. 'insert one million swear words here as well!'. I am sure I will be able to laugh at all of this some day soon, it would make for a good read....

Many thanks

Avo1

 

[jblizzle]

Welcome to TFP!!!

There is no such thing as a low chemical pool (nor a low maintenance pool either really).

We do not subscribe to the theory that the chlorine levels can be lower if you use metals, UV, Ozone, etc. In fact we do not recommend any of those products. And I am not even sure what a ultrasonic system would do to water.

What sanitizer are you adding to the water? How are you adding chlorine?

Post up your full set of test results as I can not really see them in your wall of text

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Wow, that's quite a story....

Welcome to TFP

It goes without saying that we will disagree with your choice of sanitation. Low chlorine/alternative sanitizers never work out well in the long run. Chlorine is simply the very best way (and cheapest and easiest way) to sanitize and maintain a pool. I realize there are a lot of "alternative websites" out there that claim chlorine is bad/evil/"insert scary words about cancer here" but it is all bunk. Chlorine, when used properly, is the safest and most effective form of water sanitation and it has been proven over and over and over again by epidemiological studies in the USA, EU and in world organizations such as the WHO. And, I have no idea how an "ultrasonic" system is integrated into your pool but ultrasound has no sanitizing capabilities whatsoever.

But, let's put that possible area of disagreement aside for the moment. pH rise in your swimming pool is entriely dominated by the outgassing of CO2 and the amount of aqueous CO2 in your swimming pool water is directly related to your total alkalinity level (TA). 80-120ppm is waaay too high (no matter what any equipment manufacturer says) and, if you lower the TA closer to 50ppm, you will see a big drop in your acid demand. Also, by constantly acid washing your pool surface, your PB is degrading the pebble tec finish, exposing uncured plaster creme with all of it's highly alkaline components and, yes, making your acid demand worse, not better.

TFP has plenty of information regarding all of this, but don't expect your PB or anyone else to listen to you. You have to take control of your swimming pool care yourself. What we teach here does not mix well at all with pool store advice or pool "expert" advice. What is taught here are very simple methods of do-it-yourself pool care and, if you follow them, you will use a lot fewer swear words....

 

[JamesW]

The pH is too low and the TA is too high. Low pH causes carbon dioxide and high TA creates carbon dioxide. You're trying to do both. It won't work. Every pH target requires a different TA to keep the pH stable. The lower you want to keep the pH, the lower you have to keep the TA.

We recommend that people avoid copper. As you have found out, it's not all the sellers claim.

 

[Avo1]

Welcome to TFP!!!

There is no such thing as a low chemical pool (nor a low maintenance pool either really).

We do not subscribe to the theory that the chlorine levels can be lower if you use metals, UV, Ozone, etc. In fact we do not recommend any of those products. And I am not even sure what a ultrasonic system would do to water.

What sanitizer are you adding to the water? How are you adding chlorine?

Post up your full set of test results as I can not really see them in your wall of text

Thanks jblizzle,

I should have started the thread by saying 'My wife wanted the pool not me.....'. So let me make this clear - I won the argument and agreed to install the pool LMAO.

I did a load of research on less chemical sanitisation systems and this one looks/looked the real deal - https://www.enviroswim.com/. There are many reasons why I wanted this type of system. The number one reason was for our children as I hate chemicals generally so the less the better. We live semi rural and use tank water so water saving is a must also. I love the fact that I do not smell like chlorine and we do not have to wash ourselves and our clothes after swimming..... and many other reasons that I will not bore you with. This system does in fact produce a small amount of chlorine through a small chlorination cell. This combined with copper and silver for algaecide protection should work a treat. The ultrasonic cell is there for looks but they say it helps break down fats etc.

The low maintenance side of this pool is that I do not have to scrub nor vacuum weekly, it does it all for me. Is it worth the money - whilst I love it, probably not. I live semi rural and where mainly older retires live so I decided to have in floor cleaning installed in case we have to sell. A low maintenance pool sounds better to them I reckon.

I will post test results shortly.

 

[jblizzle]

If there is no sanitizer in the water or the chlorine level is too low for your CYA level, then your pool is not safe. Period. You are exposing any swimmers to person-to-person disease transmission.
And if you use chlorine properly, as we teach, there is no smell and really not need to shower after (but generally a good idea).

Once we see your test results we will have a better idea.

Take a look at the [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA] to know the safe chlorine levels that are required ... regardless of any other add-ons you have in your pool.

 

[Avo1]

Thanks JoyfulNoise,

I do not want to argue about the sanitising system unless you think it is the reason to my problem. It is all too late - it is installed and what I have.

I have already tried total Alk at 30ppm, the one thing I forgot to add was that the acid demand does not slow at all at any alk level that I have tried - refer to original post.

The pool is not constantly being acid washed. The pool has only been washed twice, once at start up and another a year later.

I have had many multiple issues with the pool builder, though he is a nice bloke - loooooong story. I reckon your right and I have taken control and bought a good test kit and have delved deep into the internet abyss of pools. thought I was all over it and it would be easy street, not struggle street!

Thanks

- - - Updated - - -

Wow, that's quite a story....

Welcome to TFP

It goes without saying that we will disagree with your choice of sanitation. Low chlorine/alternative sanitizers never work out well in the long run. Chlorine is simply the very best way (and cheapest and easiest way) to sanitize and maintain a pool. I realize there are a lot of "alternative websites" out there that claim chlorine is bad/evil/"insert scary words about cancer here" but it is all bunk. Chlorine, when used properly, is the safest and most effective form of water sanitation and it has been proven over and over and over again by epidemiological studies in the USA, EU and in world organizations such as the WHO. And, I have no idea how an "ultrasonic" system is integrated into your pool but ultrasound has no sanitizing capabilities whatsoever.

But, let's put that possible area of disagreement aside for the moment. pH rise in your swimming pool is entriely dominated by the outgassing of CO2 and the amount of aqueous CO2 in your swimming pool water is directly related to your total alkalinity level (TA). 80-120ppm is waaay too high (no matter what any equipment manufacturer says) and, if you lower the TA closer to 50ppm, you will see a big drop in your acid demand. Also, by constantly acid washing your pool surface, your PB is degrading the pebble tec finish, exposing uncured plaster creme with all of it's highly alkaline components and, yes, making your acid demand worse, not better.

TFP has plenty of information regarding all of this, but don't expect your PB or anyone else to listen to you. You have to take control of your swimming pool care yourself. What we teach here does not mix well at all with pool store advice or pool "expert" advice. What is taught here are very simple methods of do-it-yourself pool care and, if you follow them, you will use a lot fewer swear words....

Thanks JoyfulNoise,

I do not want to argue about the sanitising system unless you think it is the reason to my problem. It is all too late - it is installed and what I have.

I have already tried total Alk at 30ppm, the one thing I forgot to add was that the acid demand does not slow at all at any alk level that I have tried - refer to original post.

The pool is not constantly being acid washed. The pool has only been washed twice, once at start up and another a year later.

I have had many multiple issues with the pool builder, though he is a nice bloke - loooooong story. I reckon your right and I have taken control and bought a good test kit and have delved deep into the internet abyss of pools. thought I was all over it and it would be easy street, not struggle street!

Thanks

 

[Avo1]

The pH is too low and the TA is too high. Low pH causes carbon dioxide and high TA creates carbon dioxide. You're trying to do both. It won't work. Every pH target requires a different TA to keep the pH stable. The lower you want to keep the pH, the lower you have to keep the TA.

We recommend that people avoid copper. As you have found out, it's not all the sellers claim.

Thanks JamesW,

The pH must be low for this system. They spruik no more red eyes and the ability to look under the water with any pain or something like that. From what I can gather the eye pH is about 7.3 so it will need to be around this.

Please re read my original post, it says I have tried low TA. The only thing I did not add was the acid demand is still the same - huge!

Are you saying the Enviroswim system is the problem? If so why?

Thanks

 

[Avo1]

If there is no sanitizer in the water or the chlorine level is too low for your CYA level, then your pool is not safe. Period. You are exposing any swimmers to person-to-person disease transmission.
And if you use chlorine properly, as we teach, there is no smell and really not need to shower after (but generally a good idea).

Once we see your test results we will have a better idea.

Take a look at the [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA] to know the safe chlorine levels that are required ... regardless of any other add-ons you have in your pool.

These are the results from 4 shops on various dates.

Free Chlorine - 0.09, 0.4, 0.13, 0.00
Total Chlorine - 0.15, 0.09, 0.13, 0.00
Combined Chlorine - 0.06, 0.05, 0.00, 0.00
pH - 7.9, 7.7, 7.9, 7.1
Hardness - 282, 253, 239, 187
Alk - 105, 88, 46, 100
Cyanuric acid - 3, 3, 2, N/A
Copper - 0.3, 0.3, 0.1, 0.00
Iron - 0.1, 0.1, 0.1, 0.00
phosphate - 11, 0, 0, 0
TDS - 1500

Like I said in my post, I do believe some of these are incorrect and unreliable.

The chlorine levels in my pool are undetectable with my test kit.

I agree 'If there is no sanitizer in the water or the chlorine level is too low for your CYA level, then your pool is not safe. Period. You are exposing any swimmers to person-to-person disease transmission' but where are you getting this from? There is sanitisation......! From my research this sanitising system is as safe as houses and not exposing disease transmission at all. Have you researched this type of system?

 

[jblizzle]

Do a search for the thread that is entitled something like the truth about alternative sanitizers.

 

[Avo1]

Do a search for the thread that is entitled something like the truth about alternative sanitizers.

I can easily search how good they are too. Have you done in depth research?

 

[mknauss]

Do a search for the thread that is entitled something like the truth about alternative sanitizers.

Alternative sanitizers and pools--The Truth!!

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I can easily search how good they are too. Have you done in depth research?

Allow me to give you specifics, please read Post #15 from this thread - converting my ecosmarte system to chlorine

You'll notice that Chem Geek not only lays out a comparison table for the contact kill times of chlorine versus copper versus silver but he also links to both Australian and Canadian sources as to why mineral ion systems are not considered effective pool sanitizers. In the USA, it is illegal to sell those systems unless it is clearly stated that you must maintain a residual level of an EPA approved sanitizer. The post also lists references to peer-reviewed scientific journals from which the data was extracted.

 

[JamesW]

What really ANNOYS me is that I have spent a huge, massive, astronomical, no one would pay this amount of money to have a LOW MAINTENANCE and LOW CHEMICAL POOL and it has been the absolute OPPOSITE! 'insert one million swear words here!'.

You’re complaining about the system that you’re using but then defending it when we tell you that it’s not a good way to do things.

The bottom line is that what you’re doing is not compatible with what we teach. It’s pointless to keep asking us about how to make your system work.

It’s your choice, if you want to follow what we say, then we can help. If you want to follow their methods, then you need to ask them why it’s not working.

 

[Avo1]

You’re complaining about the system that you’re using but then defending it when we tell you that it’s not a good way to do things.

The bottom line is that what you’re doing is not compatible with what we teach. It’s pointless to keep asking us about how to make your system work.

It’s your choice, if you want to follow what we say, then we can help. If you want to follow their methods, then you need to ask them why it’s not working.

Fair enough JamesW,

This has gotten way outa hand and I wish I could start over again.

- - - Updated - - -

- - - Updated - - -

Do you believe the Enviroswim is causing the high pH issue?

Do you think the pH will be fixed if remove the Enviroswim and replace it with a salt system.

 

[jblizzle]

No worries and no need to feel like you need to start over.

It is going to be hard for us to answer that question as we are not familiar with what all that system does. Just realize that often a swg pool also has Rising pH is due to the aeration that is happening inside of the salt cell.

Do you have any forms of aeration like spillover spas or water features that you run a lot?

Also realize that we do not trust Pool Store testing so we would much rather see the results from your test kit.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

So here's a chart that explains what JamesW was talking about - https://www.troublefreepool.com/~richardfalk/pool/CO2.htm

Notice where the Enviroswim recommended levels (pH between 7-7.4 and TA between 80-120ppm) put your pool water - right into the red/orange zones where your water is anywhere from 16 to 25 times more saturated with CO2 than equilibrium values (what water would attain if it were just sitting in contact with air). So, your pool water (and almost all pools) are like a can of unopened soda - saturated with CO2 and ready to fizz when you open it.

So, because the water is so oversaturated with CO2, it will naturally outgas and release CO2. This process is often helped along by sources of mechanical aeration - waterfalls, bubblers, spa spillways, lots of kids splashing around, cannonball diving contests, etc. When CO2 outgasses from the water, there is an equilibrium chemical reaction whereby the dissolved bicarbonate ion (HCO3-) wishes to restore the lost CO2 and, in the process, consumes a proton (H+). The consumption of H+ ions lowers the concentrations of H+ ions and thus increases pH (inverse log scale of the hydrogen ion concentration). So, all pool water wishing to have rising pH and will do so naturally. Most surface waters (rivers, streams, etc) are higher in the pH scale, at or slightly above 8.0.

I believe you need to reduce your TA and try to maintain it there. You should also measure the pH, TA and CH of your input (fill) water to see how it is contributing to your pool. My pH always likes to rise and I get about 7-10 days between acid additions. I also use 50ppm borates as a high pH buffer but that may not be available to you in Australia.

 

[Avo1]

Thank you all,

You have nearly converted me......

I have started a new thread under - How to switch from Enviroswim to SWG or Chlorine.

 

[mdames]

Wow, that's quite a story....

Welcome to TFP

It goes without saying that we will disagree with your choice of sanitation. Low chlorine/alternative sanitizers never work out well in the long run. Chlorine is simply the very best way (and cheapest and easiest way) to sanitize and maintain a pool. I realize there are a lot of "alternative websites" out there that claim chlorine is bad/evil/"insert scary words about cancer here" but it is all bunk. Chlorine, when used properly, is the safest and most effective form of water sanitation and it has been proven over and over and over again by epidemiological studies in the USA, EU and in world organizations such as the WHO. And, I have no idea how an "ultrasonic" system is integrated into your pool but ultrasound has no sanitizing capabilities whatsoever.

But, let's put that possible area of disagreement aside for the moment. pH rise in your swimming pool is entriely dominated by the outgassing of CO2 and the amount of aqueous CO2 in your swimming pool water is directly related to your total alkalinity level (TA). 80-120ppm is waaay too high (no matter what any equipment manufacturer says) and, if you lower the TA closer to 50ppm, you will see a big drop in your acid demand. Also, by constantly acid washing your pool surface, your PB is degrading the pebble tec finish, exposing uncured plaster creme with all of it's highly alkaline components and, yes, making your acid demand worse, not better.

TFP has plenty of information regarding all of this, but don't expect your PB or anyone else to listen to you. You have to take control of your swimming pool care yourself. What we teach here does not mix well at all with pool store advice or pool "expert" advice. What is taught here are very simple methods of do-it-yourself pool care and, if you follow them, you will use a lot fewer swear words....

Just curious. Why do you say that a TA of 80 -120 is waaay too high when the recommendations of this forum are 70 - 90+ for a concrete pool? Thanks

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Just curious. Why do you say that a TA of 80 -120 is waaay too high when the recommendations of this forum are 70 - 90+ for a concrete pool? Thanks

70-90 is mostly a "starting point". In many warmer climates or pools with water features, even 70-90ppm would be too high causing excessive pH rise. In my own pool, anything above 70ppm will have me adding acid several times per week. Unfortunately the pool industry co-opted much of its understanding with respect to carbonates and alkalinity from the boiler water industry and led pool owners into thinking that there is a one-size-fits-all optimal TA value. That is precisely wrong. The optimal TA value is whatever level of TA that gives the pool owner the most stable pH. For some pools, that could be as high as 80-100ppm. For most pools, it's often well below 80ppm.