Since a week or so there is small flakes / scale coming out of my pipes

[bassie123456]

Hey guys,I own a spa for over 2 years now. I have recently switched to the dichlor-then-bleach method. Previously I used non-chlorine products (SWT). But I had trouble keeping the spa clean & clear. I learned so much from the dichlor-then-bleach method, especially when it comes to balancing my water. I realise there is more to great water balance then just PH (like TA and CH) which I did not know before..:/ So, ever since I switched to this method the water has been clearer then it's ever been. The water is 3,5 weeks old now and still it is really clear.However, since a week or so it seems like there is stuff releasing from my pipes. Recently I had put on all the jets on full power, in order to scoop away some foam. Then, after I turned of the jets, I saw lots of little flakes (don't know how to describe it) floating around. I scooped some most of it out and set my filter to double time. The next day I cleaned the filter and there was lots of stuff in it which I haven't seen before. It also looked kind of yellow. It's been a week now and I still see this stuff floating around. I clean the filter every 2 days now and everytime I see it holds lots of this stuff. What should I do? Am I doing something wrong in regards of balancing my water? Or is this a good thing, and is unwanted grease finally breaking down and leaving my pipes (I hope this is the case).PS, here are my numbers:

• TA: 55-60 (need to keep it this low, or my PH will drift up above 7.8)
• CYA: 35
• CH: 160-180 (measured like a week ago)
• PH: 7.6-7.7
• CC: 0.5
• Borate: 40-50
• Temp: 37 degrees celcius (98.6 fahrenheit)

I have been around these numbers since the beginning. My CH was a little bit lower at the beginning but I increased it a bit to reduce foaming. I try to keep my FC around 5 at all times and after heavy usage of the tub I shock to 15ppm with 12,5% bleach. My CC sometimes gets a bit up, but after I keep my FC 10 times the CC level for a little while, it drops. 90% of the times I check my CC is at 0.5I attached a picture to show the scale which seems to be leaving my pipes.- - - Updated - - -Here's the pic. The filter had been in for maybe 3-4 days and this is what came out after I rinsed the filter in a smaller bucket.

 

[Ahhsomeguy]

Hi Basie: What was the date of manufacture of your hot tub? Also, what is the brand?

 

[darcNL]

Looks like a similar situation with my tub, but worse. I figured in my case it might be the caulking around my jets degrading. I only see white flecks in the water when I put my tub in standby and remove the filter... then I see a bunch of white flecks in the filter hole. When I change my water in a month I'm going to use Ahhsome for the first time, which hopefully will fix the problem.

https://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/145656-Caulking-around-jets-degrading

 

[bassie123456]

Thanks guys!

My tub is 2 years old, bought brand new. I dont know when its manufactured but I know I bought it at europe's largest dealer, shipping out lots of these spas.

The brand name is 'spa pleasure', thats how they sell it at least.

@darcNl, that sounds bad. I cannot Imagine it is something like that, the flecks I have are really small (somtimes larger) and very thin. I can hardly grap it , it is almost skin material. Doesn't look like my jets are dissolving, but I will make sure to check it out by daylight tomorrow.

- - - Updated - - -

Ps: Can't this be bio film breaking down and presenting itself as white flecks?

Ps 2: @darcnl: this particles in my spa look kind of yellow when I scoop it out. The filter looks yellow too and one simple rinse clears the filter up to white. Don't know but maybe the yellow could mean it's not the same issue as you are having?

 

[darcNL]

All filters get yellow afaik. And rinsing clears it up.... But over time the yellow stays as the filter ages. I'm not 100% sure the flecks are from the caulking... It's just a guess. It could be stuff coming off the pipes. That'd be a better cause. I'll take a picture of my flecks.... They look much the same, just less of them. Very tiny and I can't pick them out either. Filters traps some so I've been frequently rinsing mine to try and rid the problem. Maybe it's helping?

 

[bassie123456]

Ok thanks a lot! I will try and see if I can see any caulking or something like that. If it is caulking, what to do? That's no good right? My balance should be (really) good and should not cause degrading the caulking aftwr owning the tub for just 2 years I assume

 

[Ahhsomeguy]

Ok thanks a lot! I will try and see if I can see any caulking or something like that. If it is caulking, what to do? That's no good right? My balance should be (really) good and should not cause degrading the caulking aftwr owning the tub for just 2 years I assume

You should ask your dealer to speak with the manufacturer to see if your hot tub plumbing was manufactured from a piping and tubing manufacturer based in Florida that had issues with an excess amount of soy used as a lubricant in the manufacturing process. Sounds like you have this plumbing.
Fizzes on high jet and filters get overloaded with Calcium Stearate. You need to do one of the protocols listed on Home - Ahh-Some Water Cleanser for Your Pool, Hut Tub, Jet Bath, Swim Spa and Washing Machine as shown in the Hot Tub/jetted bath product section. This will eliminate your issues but I caution you that this can be very frustrating. The affected plumbing is the clear tubing where the ambient air is introduced into the jets to make turbulence. Hot tubs manufactured from around the last quarter in 2014, all of 2015 and the first quarter of 2016 can be affected. Numerous manufacturers purchased tubing from this manufacturer and have the potential of many many thousands of infected tubs. We have worked hand in hand with numerous manufacturers and hot tub owners to help get through this issue. If you have the fizzing and the whitish particulates floating in your tub out of the blue, you may want to perform a series of purges with specific instructions. We will get your hot tub issues resolved.

 

[bassie123456]

Hi Ahhsomeguy,

Thanks! I have e-mailed my dealer and will see what they say about it.
Since I live in the Netherlands it is hard to get ahhsome here, but I will see if I can get it shipped from overseas.

Is there any way to validate it really is this issue? Can I for example disconnect the air hose and see on the inside if this is the case?

Thanks a lot! I'll let you guys know when I know more / have reply from the manufacturer

 

[bassie123456]

@Ahhsomeguy, I just got reply from the dealer. The spa is manufactured at 'Sunbelt spas' in USA. Does this ring any bells? I will sent an e-mail to those guys as well to see if they know more about this issue I am having.

Update: my spa dealer told me they hear this sometimes and then they recommend to thrown in 'spa jet and pipe cleaner' and do a clean refill. (Jet and Pipe Cleaner)

However, I also scooped out a bunch of these white flakes and trew them in a small container with water. I clearly see the flakes floating around. Then I added a little bit of 12,5% bleach. It doesn't change anything. I have read that if it was bio film, this flakes would disappear. Sight.. I was finally on the right track to maintaining great water balans and sanitation, and now this happens. Not a fan :s

 

[bassie123456]

You should ask your dealer to speak with the manufacturer to see if your hot tub plumbing was manufactured from a piping and tubing manufacturer based in Florida that had issues with an excess amount of soy used as a lubricant in the manufacturing process. Sounds like you have this plumbing.
Fizzes on high jet and filters get overloaded with Calcium Stearate. You need to do one of the protocols listed on Home - Ahh-Some Water Cleanser for Your Pool, Hut Tub, Jet Bath, Swim Spa and Washing Machine as shown in the Hot Tub/jetted bath product section. This will eliminate your issues but I caution you that this can be very frustrating. The affected plumbing is the clear tubing where the ambient air is introduced into the jets to make turbulence. Hot tubs manufactured from around the last quarter in 2014, all of 2015 and the first quarter of 2016 can be affected. Numerous manufacturers purchased tubing from this manufacturer and have the potential of many many thousands of infected tubs. We have worked hand in hand with numerous manufacturers and hot tub owners to help get through this issue. If you have the fizzing and the whitish particulates floating in your tub out of the blue, you may want to perform a series of purges with specific instructions. We will get your hot tub issues resolved.

Sorry for the many posts. But re-reading your comment, what exactly do you mean with 'fizzing', should I hear that? Because I don't really hear any fizzing I guess. I did another test by scooping a bunch of these flakes into a glass and then I added acid to it (muriatic acid). I did not hear any fizzing then either (which I should hear when it's calcium right?). And performing a series of purges, what does that mean, that I have to do the ahh-some drain & fill a couple times? PS. I do have this problem 'out of the blue' everything was really going well, but after I had turned on all the jets at full power, for a little while, I suddenly saw all this stuff floating around. Btw, the very first time I saw this the flakes where much bigger in general. They are now really really tiny. Maybe it's all crushed into much smaller flakes now by the jets or filter. Just giving all the information

Another update: I just found this video: #2 What is this? - YouTube, I do have exactly that same problem in my spa (it literally looks the same). Don't know if it is anyhow related to the white flakes, but I still cannot get rid of this either. I already posted another thread about it. I have been scooping foam and we enter the tub really clean and we shower before. It does not get less.

Anyway, thanks a lot so far!

 

[Ahhsomeguy]

Sorry for the many posts. But re-reading your comment, what exactly do you mean with 'fizzing', should I hear that? Because I don't really hear any fizzing I guess. I did another test by scooping a bunch of these flakes into a glass and then I added acid to it (muriatic acid). I did not hear any fizzing then either (which I should hear when it's calcium right?). And performing a series of purges, what does that mean, that I have to do the ahh-some drain & fill a couple times? PS. I do have this problem 'out of the blue' everything was really going well, but after I had turned on all the jets at full power, for a little while, I suddenly saw all this stuff floating around. Btw, the very first time I saw this the flakes where much bigger in general. They are now really really tiny. Maybe it's all crushed into much smaller flakes now by the jets or filter. Just giving all the information

Another update: I just found this video: #2 What is this? - YouTube, I do have exactly that same problem in my spa (it literally looks the same). Don't know if it is anyhow related to the white flakes, but I still cannot get rid of this either. I already posted another thread about it. I have been scooping foam and we enter the tub really clean and we shower before. It does not get less.

Anyway, thanks a lot so far!

If you can remove a side skirt with no problem you should be able to see the clear tubing with whitish particles clinging on the inside. When and if you do utilize one of the protocols for Calcium Stearate elimination it is very important that you remove the filter(s) during the extended cleaning cycle you will be performing. Your initial filters that have collected much of the floaters have to be discarded. Do NOT insert any new filter(s) unless you are absolutely certain that the issue has been rectified. I would like to ask other hot tub owners who have had these issues to chime in to tell how they handled this problem and if the situation is behind them once and for all.

 

[bassie123456]

If you can remove a side skirt with no problem you should be able to see the clear tubing with whitish particles clinging on the inside. When and if you do utilize one of the protocols for Calcium Stearate elimination it is very important that you remove the filter(s) during the extended cleaning cycle you will be performing. Your initial filters that have collected much of the floaters have to be discarded. Do NOT insert any new filter(s) unless you are absolutely certain that the issue has been rectified. I would like to ask other hot tub owners who have had these issues to chime in to tell how they handled this problem and if the situation is behind them once and for all.

Thanks a lot! So, you would advice to do a purge using ahh-some (or something very similar) and drain the tub. I can unscrew a side skirt pretty easily, so I will checkout the clear tubes today. Do I understand correctly that whether it is bio-film, white-water mold or the manufacturer issue with lubricant as you described, the only thing to do (except for replacing the spa or tubes/pipes) would be to do a real thourough flush using ahh-some. Is that correct?

Do you think the flush will also help with the foamy residue floating around after the jets have been on for a while? (see: #2 What is this? - YouTube)

 

[Ahhsomeguy]

Thanks a lot! So, you would advice to do a purge using ahh-some (or something very similar) and drain the tub. I can unscrew a side skirt pretty easily, so I will checkout the clear tubes today. Do I understand correctly that whether it is bio-film, white-water mold or the manufacturer issue with lubricant as you described, the only thing to do (except for replacing the spa or tubes/pipes) would be to do a real thourough flush using ahh-some. Is that correct?

Do you think the flush will also help with the foamy residue floating around after the jets have been on for a while? (see: #2 What is this? - YouTube)

Just performing the "flushes"will NOT eradicate the "CS" issue. I recommend that you follow our protocol #1 as a first attempt. This means that you will use cleaning white vinegar or distilled white vinegar to reduce the pH dramatically. Most manufacturers recommend the Ahh-Some as a flush product of choice as this will allow for deeper penetration of the inside layer on the piping. It is ok to use another flush product if you can't get the Ahh-Some but you may have to perform more flushes to get the same results. So, go to Home - Ahh-Some Water Cleanser for Your Pool, Hut Tub, Jet Bath, Swim Spa and Washing Machine and search the products. Click,on hot tub/jetted bath cleaner and look to the right side of the page down n the right. You will see the 3 protocols we have found to be suitable for this issue. The vinegar will not harm your plumbing or seals even though the pH will be decreased for a few days. We need the acidic environment to solve the problem.

 

[bassie123456]

Found the protocol, thanks. Can I also use muriatic acid to lower the PH or should it be vinegar? Ps, looking at protocol 1 'what you may notice' that sounds really alike my situation, so I am getting my hopes up that this will actually work.

Ps. acid will also dramatically lower my (already low) TA. Should I keep my TA at a minimum level or shouldn't I worry about that for a couple of days?

 

[Ahhsomeguy]

Found the protocol, thanks. Can I also use muriatic acid to lower the PH or should it be vinegar? Ps, looking at protocol 1 'what you may notice' that sounds really alike my situation, so I am getting my hopes up that this will actually work.

Ps. acid will also dramatically lower my (already low) TA. Should I keep my TA at a minimum level or shouldn't I worry about that for a couple of days?

Muriatic will work, however, I think you will need extreme caution handling that product. Let the TA fall. You will be draining and refilling in 3-4 days anyways. Did you see the specs inside the clear tubing yet?
i am basing my recommendations on the basis that you actually have the CS issue. Be sure to check the plumbing after you remove one of the skirts.

 

[bassie123456]

Muriatic will work, however, I think you will need extreme caution handling that product. Let the TA fall. You will be draining and refilling in 3-4 days anyways. Did you see the specs inside the clear tubing yet?
i am basing my recommendations on the basis that you actually have the CS issue. Be sure to check the plumbing after you remove one of the skirts.

Ok, thanks! I have not checked the the tubing, will do shortly and let you know. In the meanwhile, the manufacturer dit reply, saying:
"We don’t buy our tubbing from Florida and we never had this problem before. The most common reason that it can happen is by using chlorine and not bromine chemicals as a water treatment, please, what are you using to treat your water?

I can't beleive this is really a chlorine problem, right? Anyway, I will still look at the tubing to see how it looks.

 

[Ahhsomeguy]

Ok, thanks! I have not checked the the tubing, will do shortly and let you know. In the meanwhile, the manufacturer dit reply, saying:
"We don’t buy our tubbing from Florida and we never had this problem before. The most common reason that it can happen is by using chlorine and not bromine chemicals as a water treatment, please, what are you using to treat your water?

I can't beleive this is really a chlorine problem, right? Anyway, I will still look at the tubing to see how it looks.

It is not a chlorine problem for sure. Keep the forum posted.

 

[darcNL]

As promised, this is what mine looks like. Look the same you think?

 

[bassie123456]

As promised, this is what mine looks like. Look the same you think?

Thanks for the pic! It looks pretty much alike. However, it doesn't look like caulking is degrading in my tub. I looked at a couple spots and coudln't see anything. Also, I would thinkg that degrading would take time. In my case, it came out of the blue and it were lots of flakes

 

[bassie123456]

I have just openend 2 side skirts of the spa. There was not a single clear tube I could view through.. :/ I looked around the corner for the other sides and there were no clear tubes there either, at least not that I could see. I guess my spa uses different kind of tubing? Does this confirm that my tubes are not manufactured by this Florida manufacturer (which had issues with the lubricant)? When it comes to the ahh-some protocols, would you suggest another procedure now? I attached pictures of the tubing at the bottom of this post.

In the meanwhile I also have had contact with a guy working at a spa product brand, which I have been in touch with longer. They provide chlorine based water treatment with an additional product which releases the biofilm so the chlorine can kill it. This guys knows it's stuff and has quite some knowledge about chemistry. He said that he had seen this kind of issues before. He said it even could be bio film build up since before I bought the spa. When the spa is manufactured and they test it, there can be water in the pipes for a real long time and most dealers don't clean it before shipping it out to the customer. So it looks brand new and clean, but in reality there is biofilm build up in the pipes. Due to my previous non-chlorine water treatment, this has been sitting there for 2 years and is now being attacked and releasing from the pipes. At least, that's his theory. What do you guys think? He suggested a double dosed spa flush btw with something similar to ahhsome.

The pictures of my tubes:
View attachment 68800 View attachment 68801