New Build - Staten Island, NY - Feedback Greatly Appreciated

[Trouble15]

PB #1 came today. Details of the bid:

Price	Included:
18,995		Vinyl Inground Pool - Gothic Design - 14 x 28 - 3.5 - 5 Feet Deep
		Pool Liner
		Steel walls & Large Stadium steel steps in the shallow end. Wall ladder in the deep end.
		Padding in between liner & all steel (walls and steps) for softness and helps minimize any corrosion
		Hayward Chemical Feeder - CL220 Off-Line Feeder
		Hayward AquaRite 900 - SALT Chlorinator with Extended Life Turbocell
		Zinc Anodes w/ Replacement Capsule
		Hayward Super Pump - Medium Head Pump Series - 1 HP
		Hayward ProGrid Vertical Grid D.E. Filters - Earth Filter
1,000		Need to pay for dirt to be dumped ($11-$13 per yard)
19,995
	Extras (through PB):
1,200		Hayward Colorlogic 320 LED Light (PB was emphatic you only need 1, more then enough light)
2,400		Hayward H-Series Heater - Model H200
2,200		Hayward OmniLogic
1,800		Goldine Salt Generator
7,600

Total $27,000.

Deck Jets - I was advised against deck jets. The PB said sometimes in the winter water gets in them, freezes and they break. You then need to rip up concrete/bricks to replace. Also, need to add another pump for this.

Slide - PB said I order it and he will install for $1,000 - $1,200.

Basketball Hoop - forget to ask, figure same as a slide, but a little cheaper.

Current Fence - They will need to take out vinyl fence posts to access the backyard, they are not responsible for putting these back up when complete.

Spa - Cost of adding an overflow spa was $9,200, I passed for now. I want to ask if the work can be set up so if I wanted to add in the future I can. Do you think this is possible?

Heater - Is this worth it? Any idea how many degrees the pool will increase at what estimated cost of the increased heating bill?

Since I'll have the inground pool and slide (no spa or water features), is the automation Omnilogic worth it?

For after installation I was quoted $1,800 for a Hayward TriVac 700 Cleaner. Was also quoted $2,600 for a safety inground pool cover installed.

PB suggested we start the build October since he is booked all September. Let the pool sit, then he'll come back in the Spring after the pool has settled and put in the liner, finish up for swimming. I can then call a mason to come in and add brick work around the pool. Am I better off starting now or waiting until March 2018?

Thank you so much for your help in advance!!! PB #2 coming tomorrow morning...

 

[Swampwoman]

Hi trouble, and welcome You realize of course this is a "trouble-free" site, right?

I only have a couple of comments and have not been through a build myself so not sure if Oct. trumps march.

But 1. Yes, IMHO the heater is worth it. In Mich today it is 51 degrees. My (covered) pool is 91 degrees and awaiting me for my am physio. I would not trade my heater for the world.

With the cover on, I "spent" about six bucks in natural gas yesterday recovering my heat to this high temp. But I don't always leave the cover on...just when I know overníght temps drop below 60 or so. So call it $300/mo average May-Oct. ymmv.

Secondly, consider changing steel walls to polymer walls. A bit more expensive, but long term maybe better when running swg. In early years, your steel walls will be fine, but in łater years if you develop pinhole leaks etc. the salt water will communicate with those walls and speed up corrosion, IMHO.

Now, most importantly, make sure you get yourself a good FAS/DPD kit at TFTestkits.net and check out [fc/cya][/FC/cya] and PoolMath - two useful tools for a "trouble-free" pool

Congrats on your imminent pool ownership!

 

[PoolGate]

Your "extras" are a lot more than retail for those items I assume he is adding extra for the installation of them? Also looks like 2 salt generators have been spec'd not sure why.

Heater for sure you need in NY. It is not fun swimming in cold water. Heater also extends your season if propane or natural gas. Gas will increase pool @ 1 degree or so per hour. Electric/Solar a degree or so per day. Only gas will extend your season.

Get more quotes!

 

[jza1736]

We are in LI. we got 5 quotes, NY prices are typically higher than other places but some of your extras seem a little on the high side. My PB quoted us 8500 for the spillover spa with the stonework around it. We also went with the polymer and it came with a lifetime warranty

 

[Brianf60]

No need for another pump with deck jets. I have a 1 h.p. pump and if I open the valve too far for my deck jets (3) the water will shoot so far it hits my neighbors house. The kids really love them. Glad we put them in.

 

[Uncle Salty]

I would dump the Omnilogic and ask to quote Aqua Plus as it comes with the Salt Cell, mine was around $1,600 -$1,800 if I recall. Also the Trivac 700 I would skip that and just buy a Robot on your own. Get a solar cover as others have stated as well.

Salty

 

[Trouble15]

Hi trouble, and welcome You realize of course this is a "trouble-free" site, right?

I only have a couple of comments and have not been through a build myself so not sure if Oct. trumps march.

But 1. Yes, IMHO the heater is worth it. In Mich today it is 51 degrees. My (covered) pool is 91 degrees and awaiting me for my am physio. I would not trade my heater for the world.

With the cover on, I "spent" about six bucks in natural gas yesterday recovering my heat to this high temp. But I don't always leave the cover on...just when I know overníght temps drop below 60 or so. So call it $300/mo average May-Oct. ymmv.

Secondly, consider changing steel walls to polymer walls. A bit more expensive, but long term maybe better when running swg. In early years, your steel walls will be fine, but in łater years if you develop pinhole leaks etc. the salt water will communicate with those walls and speed up corrosion, IMHO.

Now, most importantly, make sure you get yourself a good FAS/DPD kit at TFTestkits.net and check out [fc/cya][/fc/cya] and PoolMath - two useful tools for a "trouble-free" pool


Congrats on your imminent pool ownership!

Haha, thanks! So the heater is a no brainer. I plan on ordering a new TFTestkit once I sign the contract!

Your "extras" are a lot more than retail for those items I assume he is adding extra for the installation of them? Also looks like 2 salt generators have been spec'd not sure why.

Heater for sure you need in NY. It is not fun swimming in cold water. Heater also extends your season if propane or natural gas. Gas will increase pool @ 1 degree or so per hour. Electric/Solar a degree or so per day. Only gas will extend your season.

Get more quotes!

Yes, the extras "include" installation. I put "include" in quotes because he said I still need to hire a plumber to have a gas line installed from the house to the heater. I also need to hire an electrician to run the electricity from the house to the equipment. A quick search I found the heater online for $1,400 so I'm questioning why it's $2,400 just to connect it to the filter and have him carry it to my backyard.

I had PB 2 come today, he's going to send me the #'s in a few days. PB 3 is coming next weekend. Plan on bringing in 2 more.

We are in LI. we got 5 quotes, NY prices are typically higher than other places but some of your extras seem a little on the high side. My PB quoted us 8500 for the spillover spa with the stonework around it. We also went with the polymer and it came with a lifetime warranty

I plan on getting 5 quotes as well. I agree the extras seemed to be on the high side. I asked the PB today for plymer instead of steel. He said both come with lifetime warranty. Waiting on the #'s from PB 2 which should be here after the Labor Day weekend.

No need for another pump with deck jets. I have a 1 h.p. pump and if I open the valve too far for my deck jets (3) the water will shoot so far it hits my neighbors house. The kids really love them. Glad we put them in.

Thanks for sharing this. I actually forgot to ask PB 2 today his opinion since PB 1 kind of convinced me to scratch it. I'll ask the following PB's and also ask PB 2 his opinion. PB 1 tried to say that we will have the water running off of the slide for the relaxation sound effect, which I do kind of agree on.

I would dump the Omnilogic and ask to quote Aqua Plus as it comes with the Salt Cell, mine was around $1,600 -$1,800 if I recall. Also the Trivac 700 I would skip that and just buy a Robot on your own. Get a solar cover as others have stated as well.

Salty

Thanks! I'll ask for a quote on the Aqua Plus and look into robots. PB 2 said Omnilogic is relatively new equipment and customers have issues. In his opinion, the technology isn't there yet on the Omnilogic and it's more trouble than it's worth. Will definitely be getting a solar cover.

 

[Trouble15]

PB #2 came today. I'm waiting on #'s, which he is going to send over after the Labor Day weekend. PB # 2 differences from PB # 1:

-Same 14 x 28 gothic, however, he showed us a build with wedding cake stairs on a corner and a bench in the middle next to the steps which we like better than the stadium steps. The concern with the stadium steps is they take up 4 feet of the pool area, where as the wedding cake steps are off to the corner, and the bench is much smaller, giving more swimming room.

-The pool is going will be max size without having to get permits which would substantially raise the cost (located in NY).

-He's concerned with drainage on the property once other grass, etc. are removed. He recommends raising the yard and adding 2-inch zipper line drains all around the pool. Based on this I have a mason coming the middle of the week to get his thoughts and estimate. PB #1 also voiced drainage may become an issue once the backyard is ripped up and altered. However, he did not offer any further advice such as PB #2 did. I guess since PB # 1 didn't go into more details or recommendations I didn't think it would be that big of an issue.

-PB #1 was concerned with backyard access, however, he pretty much made it clear which area he's going in and we'll have to accommodate. Whatever issues arise from that (i.e. planters being sunk or moved due to the weight of machines) is ours to deal with once done. PB # 2 walked all around the house and backyard and explored all options to get in. He agreed on the way PB # 1 is coming in is probably how we will have to do it, however, he's a lot more concerned with preserving what's there and figuring out the best way to protect what's already built. He took pictures of everything (unlike PB # 1) and is going to speak with others and ideas to minimize damage or out place.

-PB #2 recommends we do not put in Omnilogic as it is relatively new equipment and has issues. His feelings are until the technology is developed well enough, it isn't worth the headache today. Also, everything will be set on a timer.

-PB # 2 recommends a chlorine pool (same earth filter as PB # 1) over salt water. He said he will put in salt water if we want, however, based on his customers and experience, he's seeing salt water pools burn out pumps every 3-4 years. He says when you open the pumps up it looks like leaked battery acid and needs to be replaced at approximately $400 cost. To me, that's only $100 a year, so if that statement is true, I don't see it as a deal breaker. Others experience?

Based on the two meetings so far, we like PB # 2 better.

 

[Swampwoman]

PB # 2 recommends a chlorine pool (same earth filter as PB # 1) over salt water. He said he will put in salt water if we want, however, based on his customers and experience, he's seeing salt water pools burn out pumps every 3-4 years. He says when you open the pumps up it looks like leaked battery acid and needs to be replaced at approximately $400 cost.

I think the majority of swg users on this forum would contradict the PB in that we've not heard complaints about pumps in swg. I've only been swg for a year. But I also think if the motors te PB sees are ruined, its not because of the swg directly, but due to owners delaying on remedying shaft leaks. Water does not communicate with the motor unless the seal is blown and then left operating like this for a good while.

My 15-year-old maxflo pump did develop a shaft leak this year which could have been remedied with a new $15 shaft seal go kit. They do make a shaft seal that is supposed to be rated for swg use, which is what Ive now used.

Since changing the seals is comparable in time to changing out a motor, I used the opportunity to upgrade to a variable speed motor and kept the original single speed pump on hand as a backup since I operate in winter.

The original pump is just fine - it only needed a new seal. It ran continuously in saltwater 24/7 for a year.

If you want swg (I love it) then the answer is simply to be proactive about equipment maintenance. Had I left a leaky pump in operation with saltwater all summer, mine might have looked corroded.

For me, the convenience and feel of swg is worth the extra vigilance against corrosion. While I love my swg and am inclined to "defend" it, I don't think pool builders are necessarily trumping up what they see...I just think that many people think swg is "set it and forget it" so they aren't attuned to maintaining things in a way that protects equipment: water balance (via csi), bonding, periodic inspection of equipment and consciousness around using materials designed to be more corrosion-resistant.

In other words, by the time your builder is called out, things have gone sideways because some element has gone awry.

Part of this phenom is the marketing tactics of swg mfgs, who emphasize the ease of swg. Its true in terms of daily maintenance and if parameters are correct, but it doesn't absolve pool owners of routine maintenance and taking some time to care for their investment the way TFPers do .

The fact that you're at TFP now tells me you'll be one of those trouble-free types despite your screen name

 

[jza1736]

Don't let the PBs dictate your project. Definitely get more quotes. With each PB we got more ideas. The first 2 said we had to come in on our left side (which is where the pool is going) but we have lots of nice landscaping there and 4 30' tall trees there. They wanted to rip 2 trees down and all the landscaping would be destroyed. (like you, our problem when they are done) another PB gave us a different option. Come in on the right side (our normal access to the back yard & very little landscaping) the added cost for an additional rehandle machine was $1000. To replace one of my 30' trees would cost more then that.

Each PB we dealt with had their own opinions about salt, automation, or which manufacture of equipment to use. Do your own research and get what you want. You will be happier with exactly what you want and not wishing you had it. We got salt, upgraded automation, and 2 lights. Pb was pushing the automation but not the upgrade, i wanted the upgrade with double the relays. ($300 difference). He was also pushing 1 light and the good people on TFP pointed out that on my Freeform pool one light could have shadows and dark spots. So, we got 2. Get what you want! Good luck!

 

[PoolGate]

Have you considered a concrete/gunite pool? When I got quotes there was not a huge difference in price between them. Liner was cheapest followed by fiberglass and then concrete. All were within 10% of each other. Running the gas for me was $2000 for a 70' run. Electric and gas shared the same trench but both charged full price (electric guy trenched, gas just piggy-backed). If you arrange with both for this you should save substantially. Also my pool heater (400k btu) uses more gas than the rest of my house combined and required an upgrade to the meter which was no charge from the gas company.

Consider decking very carefully. Deck is very expensive. Concrete is $7-$9/square foot. You need at least 4' all the way around but will probably want 12' in the areas you plan on having chairs.

 

[Sandissimos]

Have you considered getting an air source heat pump to heat your pool? I have one of these and it is really cheap to run. For every 4 degrees Celsius air temperature, it increases the pool temperature by 1 degree Celsius. I have mine capped at 26°C to prolong the lifespan of our vinyl pool liner.

I really didn't want to be messing about with running extra gas lines either.

 

[Catanzaro]

Trouble15:

How much extra will the pavers and concrete be? Also, I believe you are getting a good deal on this pool and you are not far off. Also, how many skimmers, main drain and return jets are they installing. It is important that you have at least 4 returns in the pool, plus the steps. I emphasize this as people I come across with limited returns have circulation issues. The PB may insist you do not need them, but insist on putting them in. You should also isolate the house and yard side with shut off valves.

My pool has 6 returns, plus 2 in the steps. Only 2 valves. I wish they would have added a 3rd valve with turbo nozzles in the steps and I could have controlled them, but it is too late now.

A heater is a must. With the cold weather this summer, a pool would have just been stared at. I went 3 seasons without a heater and finally installed one. Makes a big difference. Even if a pool company is slightly more expensive, but has good reviews and has been in business for a long time, it may be worth the extra few dollars. You want a company that will be around 15 years from now.

 

[Trouble15]

I think the majority of swg users on this forum would contradict the PB in that we've not heard complaints about pumps in swg. I've only been swg for a year. But I also think if the motors te PB sees are ruined, its not because of the swg directly, but due to owners delaying on remedying shaft leaks. Water does not communicate with the motor unless the seal is blown and then left operating like this for a good while.

My 15-year-old maxflo pump did develop a shaft leak this year which could have been remedied with a new $15 shaft seal go kit. They do make a shaft seal that is supposed to be rated for swg use, which is what Ive now used.

Since changing the seals is comparable in time to changing out a motor, I used the opportunity to upgrade to a variable speed motor and kept the original single speed pump on hand as a backup since I operate in winter.

The original pump is just fine - it only needed a new seal. It ran continuously in saltwater 24/7 for a year.

If you want swg (I love it) then the answer is simply to be proactive about equipment maintenance. Had I left a leaky pump in operation with saltwater all summer, mine might have looked corroded.

For me, the convenience and feel of swg is worth the extra vigilance against corrosion. While I love my swg and am inclined to "defend" it, I don't think pool builders are necessarily trumping up what they see...I just think that many people think swg is "set it and forget it" so they aren't attuned to maintaining things in a way that protects equipment: water balance (via csi), bonding, periodic inspection of equipment and consciousness around using materials designed to be more corrosion-resistant.

In other words, by the time your builder is called out, things have gone sideways because some element has gone awry.

Part of this phenom is the marketing tactics of swg mfgs, who emphasize the ease of swg. Its true in terms of daily maintenance and if parameters are correct, but it doesn't absolve pool owners of routine maintenance and taking some time to care for their investment the way TFPers do .

The fact that you're at TFP now tells me you'll be one of those trouble-free types despite your screen name

Thank you!We would still prefer to go with SWG, however, PB #2 at least gave us some doubts. Would you recommend the Aqua Plus for automation as well?

Don't let the PBs dictate your project. Definitely get more quotes. With each PB we got more ideas. The first 2 said we had to come in on our left side (which is where the pool is going) but we have lots of nice landscaping there and 4 30' tall trees there. They wanted to rip 2 trees down and all the landscaping would be destroyed. (like you, our problem when they are done) another PB gave us a different option. Come in on the right side (our normal access to the back yard & very little landscaping) the added cost for an additional rehandle machine was $1000. To replace one of my 30' trees would cost more than that.

Each PB we dealt with had their own opinions about salt, automation, or which manufacture of equipment to use. Do your own research and get what you want. You will be happier with exactly what you want and not wishing you had it. We got salt, upgraded automation, and 2 lights. Pb was pushing the automation but not the upgrade, i wanted the upgrade with double the relays. ($300 difference). He was also pushing 1 light and the good people on TFP pointed out that on my Freeform pool one light could have shadows and dark spots. So, we got 2. Get what you want! Good luck!

Thanks! We are still exploring options on how to best get into the backyard without destroying other parts of the backyard.

Have you considered a concrete/gunite pool? When I got quotes there was not a huge difference in price between them. Liner was cheapest followed by fiberglass and then concrete. All were within 10% of each other. Running the gas for me was $2000 for a 70' run. Electric and gas shared the same trench but both charged full price (electric guy trenched, gas just piggy-backed). If you arrange with both for this you should save substantially. Also my pool heater (400k btu) uses more gas than the rest of my house combined and required an upgrade to the meter which was no charge from the gas company.

Consider decking very carefully. Deck is very expensive. Concrete is $7-$9/square foot. You need at least 4' all the way around but will probably want 12' in the areas you plan on having chairs.

My understanding is gunite will cost at least double the price. I have red pavers in other parts in my backyard, going to weight the cost to add around the pool and go from there. Some concrete may be an option.

Have you considered getting an air source heat pump to heat your pool? I have one of these and it is really cheap to run. For every 4 degrees Celsius air temperature, it increases the pool temperature by 1 degree Celsius. I have mine capped at 26°C to prolong the lifespan of our vinyl pool liner.

I really didn't want to be messing about with running extra gas lines either.

I have not considering this, but I'll take a look now. Thanks.

Trouble15:

How much extra will the pavers and concrete be? Also, I believe you are getting a good deal on this pool and you are not far off. Also, how many skimmers, main drain and return jets are they installing. It is important that you have at least 4 returns in the pool, plus the steps. I emphasize this as people I come across with limited returns have circulation issues. The PB may insist you do not need them, but insist on putting them in. You should also isolate the house and yard side with shut off valves.

My pool has 6 returns, plus 2 in the steps. Only 2 valves. I wish they would have added a 3rd valve with turbo nozzles in the steps and I could have controlled them, but it is too late now.

A heater is a must. With the cold weather this summer, a pool would have just been stared at. I went 3 seasons without a heater and finally installed one. Makes a big difference. Even if a pool company is slightly more expensive, but has good reviews and has been in business for a long time, it may be worth the extra few dollars. You want a company that will be around 15 years from now.

The mason is coming the middle of this week for a quote on the pavers, concrete, additional zip line drains, etc. The pool has 2 drains, 1 skimmer, returns I'm not certain, it may be on the quote. I know he spoke about returns in the steps like you mentioned. 1 LED colored light. Shut off valves will be different. Is 1 Hayward LED Color light enough for the 14 x 28 size pool? The light would be on the wall in the deep end.

 

[Uncle Salty]

The main reason I suggested dropping the Omnilogic is it's overkill for your build and it does not include the Salt Cell whereas the AquaPlus does include the Salt Cell and would provide more than enough capabilities for what you're looking for. If going with Automation you'll also want AquaConnect included so you can control everything via smartphone or tablet. I would also go with 2 or 3 lights, have them quote the smaller Colorlogic 360 and put 2 of them in the shallow end if the price is to your liking.

Salty

 

[Swampwoman]

Trouble, I have the Aquarite and for automation/control I'm using intermatic's pe653, which allows me to schedule run time but not percent. I'm not familiar with Hayward's direct automation -- the PE653 was a cheap date and adequate for my purposes at the time...it basically acts as an on-off switch and timer/scheduler for my pump, heater and swg, but is not considered full integration -- eg I can't change the speed on my VSP without buying an extender; I can thermostat the heater or run it by schedule, but not both conditionally, and I cannot change the swg % remotely. By the same token, I got the PE 653 and remote for $320 fom Smarthome, so have no complaints

Heat pumps, just so you know, are great for places without extremes in weather. But for northern climes, not so much, IMHO.

 

[Trouble15]

Still waiting to get my quote from PB #2. In the meantime, the Mason came yesterday and just called me a short while ago with a quote on the brick work.

-$9,500 for all of the pavers in the backyard - this will be about 3.5 feet walk way around the pool (14 x 28) and the main patio as well. This includes raising the backyard about a foot. Also adding zipper drains in the back and one side closest to the fence. The other side no extra drain since there are grass and a garden there to absorb the water. The PB suggested zipper drains around the pool, however, the Mason disagreed. He said doing that means you'd pitch water toward the pool into the drains, but you want to pitch to the walls and have the drains there.

-$2,400 for the coping around the pool

-$5,000 for the curb wall around the back and right-hand side of the yard - the back is about 45-50 feet + the right-hand side, about another 25 feet. The wall will be about 2 feet high by about 6 inches deep.

-$3,000 to redo the steps by the back basement door - currently 1 step, pretty high. Going to rip it out and put in two steps since the yard will be raised. Right now it's concrete, will become pavers.

-$19,900 total

I think I underestimated how much it would be. I'm assuming it's higher than I thought because of raising the backyard about a foot or so. Still going to get another 2-3 Mason's back there for their opinions and quotes to make sure the pricing makes sense.

Also, the quote doesn't include any extra work he may have to do as a result of the digging. For example, I have a retaining wall block garden the excavator will have to drive over. Depending on how it looks when they're done and what he has to do, he'll give me a price on fixing/adjusting.

 

[Trouble15]

Quote, # 2 came in.

If we take the same build as PB # 1, except no salt water, no OmniLogic and 5.5 ft. deep end, $23,500. If we want to add salt generator same price $1,800. However, the Omnilogic automation was quoted $3,300.

We also asked to price the same pool, except instead of stadium stairs with wedding cake corner stairs and a seating bench. This quote came out to $26,500.

Question, just to make sure I'm clear. If I want a salt water pool, I would just need to add the $1,800 salt generator. No need to really add anything else?

PB #1 and PB #2 are pretty much in line.

PB # 3 comes tomorrow afternoon.

 

[Catanzaro]

Question, just to make sure I'm clear. If I want a salt water pool, I would just need to add the $1,800 salt generator. No need to really add anything else?

Ask if it includes the electrical hookup to the timer. There are 3 wires, 2 hot and 1 ground. The SWG Box also has a bonding wire that needs to be installed.

 

[Trouble15]

Does anyone have experience with the timing of installing a vinyl liner inground pool? The reason I ask is PB # 1 said if we dug in October/November he would put in the walls and the bottom and stop. He would come back in spring (March) to put in the liner, water, filter, etc. and finish. PB # 2 said if we dug in October/November he would install the walls, bottom, liner, and water. He would come back in spring (March) to add the filter and check everything out. Both would cover the pool with tarps, etc. for the winter. PB # 2 expressed if we have a bad winter, it could impact the pool. I didn't follow up on that, but I will, by asked if the pool shifts or anything happens in the winter, is it covered by him to fix? I'm guessing no.

The advantage I see of digging and installing in October/November is both PB's said you need 4-6 weeks for the pool to settle before installing pavers, coping, etc. So this would allow us to this work in early Spring to have the most time to use the pool. Just wanted to see if anything else has experience and suggestions with this.

Ask if it includes the electrical hookup to the timer. There are 3 wires, 2 hot and 1 ground. The SWG Box also has a bonding wire that needs to be installed.

Thanks. I will add this to my follow up questions.