Simplifying BBB for very small pools (e.g. Intex)

[JasonLion]

I like the idea of using polyquat. It does cost $25 a bottle, but you will use it. A weekly dose is required. It is good to make allowances for people who skip days, read test results incorrectly, follow directions wrong, etc. Using polyquat provides a lot of insurance against these kinds of problems.

For PH adjustments, there is no need to know the TA. You just give them a standard "raise the PH" dose and a standard "lower the PH" dose and then have them repeat the dose until the PH is in range.

For fractional oz you use teaspoons, six teaspoons in an oz.

I am imagining a web based calculator. You tell it what size pool you have and it gives you a page you can print out with all of the instructions and the specific doses of everything.

I am imagining that the target audience is pools with pumps and filters that get completely emptied each year. Without a pump/filter the instructions should be simpler still, and that isn't really what I am interested in. The pool has to be small enough that they are willing to empty and refill if something goes serious wrong. The goal should be to go a whole season, but major mistakes/problems should be allowed to require a complete drain/refill. In practice this probably means 1,000 to 5,000 gallons, but both ends allow for some variation depending on the owners attitudes.

I figure the test kit can be OTO TC, PH, and TA. That would be something like a Taylor K-1003. Another way to go would be a DPD test kit, like the Taylor K-1004. It doesn't cost much more and gives you much better chlorine test results. Leslie's has a K-1004 equivalent, but I don't think that WalMart does. The remaining two options are to go low end, the K-1000 OTO and PH, clones of which are available everywhere. Or to go more complex and not necessarily better, the WalMart 6 way kit. Keep in mind that I am not pushing Taylor, TFTestKits can do a similar kit if they want to, and we might find other brands that are alright, like WalMart. I am just using Taylor to layout the options. Just at the moment, I like the Taylor K-1004.

 

[Guest]

Just at the moment, I like the Taylor K-1004.

Perhaps Dave would be interested in carrying it?
Actually, how important do you really think TA is going to be? Perhaps a K-1000 is all they need for testing.
OR a K-1001 since it will test FC.

 

[PaulR]

For PH adjustments, there is no need to know the TA. You just give them a standard "raise the PH" dose and a standard "lower the PH" dose and then have them repeat the dose until the PH is in range.

So, it sounds like the test kit wouldn't need to include TA, if you don't need to know the TA... unless you had some other reason in mind. If we go with stock raise/lower doses for pH, then TA is really not worth measuring, dosing to deal with pH changes will herd the TA to some sort of equilibrium soon enough.
--paulr

 

[JasonLion]

I am only concerned about the TA at startup. A large proportion of tap water has extremely low TA, yet some tap water has very high TA. You don't really want to raise TA by 70 if it is already 240, and at the same time you don't want to leave TA at 10 if it starts at 10. I was thinking that they should test their fill water, and raise TA to something like 80 to 100 if it starts below that. This could be handled with a pool store water test, however getting a TA test doesn't raise the cost of the test kit much, around $5, though it does narrow the number of places you can buy the test kit.

I don't know. It is possible to tolerate TA levels of 300+. People in those areas would end up using more acid more frequently that way. It does seem like kind of a shame to have them raise TA by 70+ only to end up using a lot of acid to lower it later, simply because they didn't test TA at startup. But testing TA at startup does add complexity and cost.

The choice between OTO and DPD probably comes down to a decision about fixed chlorine dosage each day vs aiming for a target level. I think DPD would be really valuable if you are trying to target a specific FC level. While OTO is quite sufficient if you are simply adding a fixed chlorine dose. DPD is also valuable when dealing with problems, but again that introduces complexity. There is also a secondary issue, is it worth having DPD just for those rare moments when you ask for help, even if all you really need day to day is OTO. DPD would certainly give us more information when they ask a question.

There is probably a nearly endless list of little places where simplifying works for 80% of the people, but causes minor trouble for 20%. I haven't quite figured out how to make those decisions. The choice between an $80 test kit and a $20 test kit seems simple enough. But the choice between an $11 test kit and a $15 test kit is not so clear cut.

 

[duraleigh]

I like the thoughts in this thread but (as I always do) I think it can be done even simpler.

A 3k intex pool can be chlorinated up to 6ppm daily for less than 50 cents. I would suggest not even bothering with di-chlor simply because the pool owner will not stop using dichlor until it is all gone. You've seen the posts....."I'm switching to BBB next season just as soon as I use up all these pucks".

Even if they were inclined to stop at the correct point, that would involve the purchase of a test kit that would allow several CYA tests.......that means spending more bucks that I don't think will happen.

I do not have enough knowledge to know that 6ppm FC in the evening will keep a pool sanitized 'til the following evening but I bet it will come close.

With that in mind, the pool owner can own a $8.00 pH and TC OTO test kit and keep that pool humming along all summer for a TOTAL cost of about $40-50 bucks. The cost of CYA and the testing for CYA will practically double that cost.

If things go South, (algae, etc) dump the pool and start again. I would speculate that 3k of water is around $10 bucks but I don't know that.

pH control should be mindless.....Borax makes it go up.....muriatic makes it go down.

TA and CH I would completely ignore.

EDIT:

There is probably a nearly endless list of little places where simplifying works for 80% of the people, but causes minor trouble for 20%.

jason makes a really good point with this statement. Without anything backing me up but guesswork, I think it might be closer to 95-5 rather than 80-20.

On a somewhat unrelated subject, I think our responses to OP often get far too complex because we are trying to cover 100% of all situations. It may take 6 paragraphs to have a response that covers everything but perhaps only a couple of sentences that would get 95% of the answer but leaves out the 5% of exceptions.

 

[JasonLion]

If TA is below 40 and nothing is done to adjust it, then you will have problems. At a minimum, we need to include an instruction that raises TA, but there is no requirement that they test TA. Testing TA will simplify things for people in Arizona and other arid regions, but it isn't mandatory.

I am not comfortable recommending a procedure without any CYA. When CYA is really zero, they will lose all of the chlorine by early afternoon at the latest. That means several hours of prime swimming time without any sanitizer. Algae won't be a problem, but person to person transmission will. [[By the by 2 ppm of chlorine, with zero CYA, is shocking. No need to go up to 6 if you were to take that approach and the water is clear.]]

Right now, I am imagining the simplest possible instructions being of the form (I don't give quantities, but pretend):

Startup:
Add baking soda
Add chlorine (bleach or dichlor, not sure) (startup dose)
Add polyquat (startup dose)

First N days daily:
Add dichlor
Adjust PH if needed

After that daily:
Add bleach
Adjust PH if needed

Weekly:
Add polyquat (maintenance dose)

Where add bleach means test FC, if too low add double the regular amount, otherwise add regular amount
And adjust PH means if near 7.2 add borax, and if near 7.8 add dry acid/PH Down

That is really really simple, especially if the quantities can be explained simply. I don't see the initial baking soda addition as making it noticeably more complex. Nor do I think that switching from dichlor to bleach is especially complicated. Most of the complexity is in how some of the unusual situations are explained and how shopping for supplies and calculating quantities are handled.

From my point of view, that is so simple that it is worth adding little tiny bits of complexity if it helps 20% of the people. If anything is to be added, it should probably be TA measurements. Getting TA up from very low levels is important, and it is not so good to raise TA if TA starts high. Plus high TA means larger doses for changing PH, which could be made simpler to handle if the approximate TA level is known.

 

[duraleigh]

I have never purchased a couple of those items.....

Dichlor......what price for how much?

Polyquat......what price for how much?

Test for adequate CYA...........At least two trips to the pool store or purchase the test for approx $20.00.

My thinking is the higher the cost, the less likely pool owner is likely to go along with it. I'm not commited to that, it just seems to make sense.

Yeah, I knew about the 2ppm for shock. I was thinking a 6ppm dosage would eliminate whatever organics had accumulated and still have a residual to carry through the day.

Are we sure that 6ppm of FC will not hold any residual during an average day?

If TA is below 40 and nothing is done to adjust it, then you will have problems.

I can only remember a couple of posts that suggested TA below 40.......one was ZERO which I didn't think was really possible.

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

I have never purchased a couple of those items.....

Dichlor......what price for how much?

Polyquat......what price for how much?

Test for adequate CYA...........At least two trips to the pool store or purchase the test for approx $20.00.

My thinking is the higher the cost, the less likely pool owner is likely to go along with it. I'm not commited to that, it just seems to make sense.

Yeah, I knew about the 2ppm for shock. I was thinking a 6ppm dosage would eliminate whatever organics had accumulated and still have a residual to carry through the day.

Are we sure that 6ppm of FC will not hold any residual during an average day?

If TA is below 40 and nothing is done to adjust it, then you will have problems.

I can only remember a couple of posts that suggested TA below 40.......one was ZERO which I didn't think was really possible.

We have a test case:
http://www.troublefreepool.com/water-milky-after-swimming-and-chlorine-level-always-low-t14497.html

I agree with Dave.

I paid $25 for PQ and I had to drive 20 minutes to a Leslie's cause no one else had it. The po will end up with a poor substitute, or copper-based or not use it all. In the test case above, the nearest pool store is 70 miles or 70 minutes or something. Walmart is his best option.

I think the HTH 6way is the easiest recommendation that most if not all intex users can accept and find...and be inclined to use. They aren't going to justify ordering a "better" kit off the internet for a little pool, unless we push, push push. If the 6-way tests TA, why not just suggest it off the bat? If there is a problem with green water, recommend dump and refill.

In the test case, 1.5 bags of dichlor will raise the CYA level into range, and I've seen dichlor for $3-5 a bag.

We had a recent question "How much bleach will i have to add each day". The pool was 3800 gallons, Paul suggested the Dichlor/switch to bleach route, which I agree with, and I added that if their pool is typical, after they switch to bleach 1 or 2 cups of bleach each nite will probably do, assuming no problems.

The smallest pool I have seen on here is the test case above, at 1,700 gallons. I can't see anyone smaller having a filter or the owner looking for help. They'll dump and refill.

 

[duraleigh]

1.5 bags of dichlor will raise the CYA level into range, and I've seen dichlor for $3-5 a bag.

I had no idea you could get them that small (and affordable). That's pretty convincing to use di-chlor for start-up.

If they are readily available in a standard size, we could even say something like, "Every evening, put in one pak of the dichlor until you have put in X packs, then switch to bleach. (X being the number of packs needed to get their pool to 40 or so.

 

[JasonLion]

Leslie's has dichlor for $4 to $5 a pound. On the Internet you need to buy six one pound bags, but in the store they will sell you a single one pound bag. Dosage will be around 1/2 lb to 2/3 lb per 1000 gallons.

PolyQuat is around $25/quart, everyone has it but it can be tricky to identify (there are many different brands and they are all labeled differently).

There wouldn't be any CYA testing. The dosing would be pre-calculated to produce the correct CYA level.

If you start with 6 ppm of FC, it takes less than 3 hours of direct sunlight for the level to fall low enough (below 0.2) that it might as well be zero.

TA below 50 is rare. I am not sure how rare because people don't tend to report their tap water test results very often and TA is so easy to raise. TA over 200 is also rare, but gets reported frequently because it can be really annoying to lower. TA can be zero, but only if the PH is really really low.

 

[Guest]

I am not comfortable recommending a procedure without any CYA. When CYA is really zero, they will lose all of the chlorine by early afternoon at the latest.

I have seen many people who had these pools that were using either liquid chlorine or cal hypo that had all kinds of problems here in FL because they had no CYA (nor did they even know what it was until they came to see me at the store). Many of them were ready to give up on their pools. CYA is a MUST, IMHO!
TA is less of an issue and if you want to cut corners there I think you can with no problems.

Remember, we are recommending using unstabilized chlorine and not trichlor so the tendency would be pH rise and not pH drop.

 

[PaulR]

Remember, we are recommending using unstabilized chlorine and not trichlor so the tendency would be pH rise and not pH drop.

The first round of dichlor would tend to lower pH a little, right? Enough to be a worry, or no? Not clear to me how acidic the dichlor is really.

TA below 50 is rare.

Does a softener take out whatever's in TA as well as the hardness? In general filling from a softener is better than not when the water's really hard but I've never had to deal with it myself.

Re CYA, I think if we're combining with polyquat and shooting for comparatively low CYA levels, we want to stay away from test kits that include CYA because a lot of the time there won't be enough to register.
--paulr

 

[PaulR]

I would particularly like some of the veterans to provide an opinion whether
...
- doing CYA with the dichlor/bleach method would scale reasonably from 300-gal spas to 3000-gal temporary pools.
Depends on whether you are talking about a non filtered 'kiddie pool' or a larger setup, IMHO
--paulr

I went back and looked at intexcorp.com; in the smaller pools the filter is an option. Not sure what versions retailers e.g. Walmart carry.

If there's no filter, then basically you need to dump and refill whenever the water gets too scummy anyway, and in that situation maybe straight dichlor or trichlor would be the simpler approach.

For pools with a filter then the water would probably last a full season and the dichlor/bleach/polyquat approach sounds better.
--paulr
who really ought to be working but this is more fun

 

[chem geek]

I also think that having them add some polyquat 60 on each fill would be good insurance against temporary low FC conditions that you KNOW are going to happen.

If PolyQuat 60 isn't added in a maintenance dose every week, then it doesn't do very much good. It breaks down so certainly adding it once at the beginning of a season isn't going to cut it (I wasn't sure what was meant by "on each fill"). In my own pool years ago when I used Trichlor pucks, I also used PolyQuat 60 but only every other week. When the CYA got to 150 ppm, I started to have problems with algae growing faster than chlorine could kill it. Though that's obviously more extreme than we are talking about here, I think that any supplemental algaecide usage would need to be done properly and with PolyQuat 60 that means weekly. A plus side to the PolyQuat 60 is that it is also a clarifier so will help keep the pool clearer even if the filter isn't very good or the pump is weaker (which is typical).

There's another alternative, of course, and that is to use 50 ppm Borates. It won't go away (except from dilution/dumping) and will provide some insurance against algae growth and provide more pH stability. It won't be cheap, though, but it is a once-per-season cost.

I'm concerned that those with less expensive pools may also feel less invested in properly maintaining them. If they are using cheaper OTO chlorine test kits, then as was noted earlier this implies a lower CYA level of probably around 30 ppm. That implies faster chlorine loss from sunlight during the day so skipping a daily added dose of chlorine would likely result in too low a chlorine level and a resulting algae bloom. So some form of algae prevention "insurance" makes more sense, but then you start going down a different path towards adding more chemicals or using other techniques (even, gulp, copper sulfate, but added mostly as a one-time dose). Another approach would be a regular shocking of the pool to make up for any down (missed chlorine) days. BBB requires diligence; otherwise you end up with a more traditional approach.

Richard

 

[Nikki in IL]

I've had an easy-set for three summers now and have had great success with modified BBB. I found the following to be easiest:

pucks worked best until CYA gets to a good level, then bleach
the walmart 6-way test kit got me through two summers with no trouble
I did test CYA partway through each summer...I think it does matter and needs to be included

more later, if you're interested...right now I'm on a touch keyboard.

Oh yeah...one more thing...whoever said that the average owner wouldn't stop using whatever chemicals they bought - I think they're probably right.

 

[PaulR]

Thanks Nikki! One problem with suggesting the tabs is that people may not have the discipline to stop using them at the right time. Clearly you did, and it works well that way, but I don't know how many new users will be willing to go from set-and-forget tabs to a daily test-and-bleach routine.

whoever said that the average owner wouldn't stop using whatever chemicals they bought - I think they're probably right.

That's exactly why I was proposing to say "buy exactly this many 1-lb packs of dichlor, and switch to bleach when that runs out." It gets CYA to a reasonable point at reasonable cost, doesn't leave anything left over to be tempted to keep using, and gets people into the daily routine right from the start.
--paulr

 

[PaulR]

If PolyQuat 60 isn't added in a maintenance dose every week, then it doesn't do very much good. It breaks down so certainly adding it once at the beginning of a season isn't going to cut it (I wasn't sure what was meant by "on each fill").

I wasn't either, but since then it's become clearer that it does need to become a weekly part of the regimen, not just a startup one-shot.

A plus side to the PolyQuat 60 is that it is also a clarifier so will help keep the pool clearer even if the filter isn't very good or the pump is weaker (which is typical).

Good to know. As long as it's reasonably available it sounds like this is a keeper.

There's another alternative, of course, and that is to use 50 ppm Borates. It won't go away (except from dilution/dumping) and will provide some insurance against algae growth and provide more pH stability. It won't be cheap, though, but it is a once-per-season cost.

Well.... yes, but. Most of what we're talking about is chlorine and algaecide, which is the kind of story a new owner would get from anywhere, reinforcing the idea that this regimen is a reasonable one to follow. Borates have a reasonable track record among TFP devotees by now but how widespread is that idea? It's kind of a fringe thing, not in a derogatory way but just as a matter of general acceptance. Also it's not obviously easy, you have to get two things right at once in order to make it work.

I'm concerned that those with less expensive pools may also feel less invested in properly maintaining them.

My thoughts exactly. But the choices really boil down to: (1) daily regimen of some kind; (2) SWG; (3) tabs, with the pH management issues and monthly or bimonthly refills; (4) a mess. For anyone unwilling to invest in a daily regiment, we have little to say. If it's going to be a regular regimen of some kind, though, I think we have something to offer.
--paulr

 

[duraleigh]

So, have we come to consensus? One of the problems with these discussions is they tend to wind down into slightly differing ideas and go nowhere.

Paul, would you consider summing up into a format for newbies what we are saying? IMO, we are saying to......

1. purchase a specific amount of dichlor packs to get to a CYA of around 40ppm.

2. Purchase a test kit that tests Chlorine and pH. (I see no real reason to test for CYA since we are predetermining the 40ppm level.)

3. Maintain the Pool with Clorox once the dichlor is depleted.

We can certainly make it more complex but I think the whole point of the discussion was to eliminate the complexities and allow people to enjoy their pools immediately and inexpensively.

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

I dunno. I think folk are going to skip the PQ.

I think the 6-way is a better recommendation, because many times these are "practice pools" and they plan to upgrade within a year.

I also think they will be tempted to keep using the "easy" dichlor or even tabs, and they should have a way to test CYA on their own.... So why spend $9 on a 2-way when they can get the 6way for $20.

Plus, if they do run into a problem and post a question, we're going to respond:

"Please post a full set of results". And they'll say, we can't and we'll say, you need a better test kit, etc.

If its' a small pool of course we'll tell them to dump and start over, but a 5,000 gallon pool they should have a 6-way.

I'm working on something for this too, since Paul mentioned his deadline at his real job....

 

[PachinkoPlayer]

Puleeze don't take this the wrong way, Paul or anyone else. I'm not calling Intex owners dummies....it's just sooo easy for noobs to be overwhelmed, see all the info in pool school and turn the other way, resorting to "traditional pool store methods" - pucks/algaecides, etc.

I think it needs to be made more like a step-by-step guide or "new small-pool startup for dummies" kinda thing. Simplified, KWIM?

Something like

"While you are setting up the pool, pick up an "HTH 6-way drop test" (Wal-mart sells for around $20) so that you can test your tap water. Or if you choose, take a sample of your tap water to the pool store for testing (but don't buy any chemicals from them, yet...) This will give you some idea of the kind of chemicals you will need on hand to treat your water.

Low PH - You'll need some Borax
Low TA - You'll need some Baking Soda
High PH or TA - You'll need some Muratic Acid.
Low PH AND Low TA - If you can find it, Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda or "soda ash"......

Edit: (Problem is, they won't know what's high or low or ok, so that needs to be simply explained too, either copy the info from REcommended Levels or link to the article.)

Here is the explanation of what all these abbreviations mean (and then link to the def article in PS).

Don't bother testing your tap water for CYA, because it won't be there, and the HTH kit only has enough solution to test your CYA 3 times, so save that for later...."

That's just off the top of my head, and probably not what you had in mind... but to me it needs to be the simpler, the better. KISS.

I agree with Anna, no complex terms, names unless absolutely necessary and definitions can be incorporated into the article and/or then link to the Chem Definitions article in pool school.

For small pools, it makes sense to have them use Dichlor for the first couple of days to get the CYA level up. (But you have to put the proper name so they don't buy Cal-hypo by mistake). Then they can switch to bleach...

Alot of the intex owners by the pool chems where they bought the pool - so they need to be warned about the HTH products that might contain copper... and we need to stress the importance of reading the "active ingredients" so that they KNOW what they are putting in their pool.

As for chlorination, I wouldn't use terms like " x lb per 1,000 gallons", I would say more like "2 cups" or 1/2 a jug, half a package". Etc. and for bleach, a little over isn't going to hurt so it doesn't have to be super precise... but perhaps a chart with measures per 1000 gallons up to 5000. Make the math easy for them so they don't have to think about it yet. Overtime, they will figure it out but it's too easy to be overwhelmed by TMI. They could and should learn how to use the Pool Calculator, whether they have a little pool or not...

Dichlor, yes too much is a bad thing, and the article can stress that.

Trichlor pucks or tablets - okay for vacation use, provided they understand what they do....blah blah blah...

Also if the pool is under 5,000 and it turns green, it's probably going to be easier for them to just drain and start over, so that should be mentioned. Also mentioning that those filters are disposable and not meant to be used all summer. LOL

I think at the minimum any pool except for a Mr. Turtle type pool should use the HTH 6-way kit at the very least....and even Dave would agree with you that a TF100 is overkill for a 1,700 gallon pool.

Ok those are my thoughts on it. Hope it makes sense, and sorry if I was rambling....

if I wasn't such a cheap skate, I too would have fallen victim to your first paragraph "pool store way"