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Thread: PH is creeping up...

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    PH is creeping up...

    I have recently switched over to BBB from pucks, and now I'm experiencing a gradual rise in PH.

    How much aeration does it take to cause the PH to rise? I set 2 of my returns to just barely break the surface in an attempt to increase surface circulation to the skimmer. You can see that the return water is breaking the surface, but not enough to cause any bubbles. Is this enough to cause a rise in PH or is it something else I'm doing?

    Thanks,
    Dave
    20K gal IG plaster pool, Manually chlorinated with 6% bleach, 1.5 HP Sta-Rite Dura-Glas II pump, Pentair FNS Plus 48 DE filter, Polaris 280

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    Re: PH is creeping up...

    What your are describing is probably not enough to account for your pH rise. Instead, you no longer have to benefit of the acidity of the trichlor tablets to keep your pH down since you are now doing the bleach thing.

    I live in the same area as you do and we likely have similar fill water. I have found that lowering my TA to around 70 has helped control the pH rise a little better with BBB. To get it down, go with muriatic acid. With my TA at 70, I rarely need to add anything else to the pool besides bleach, a little muriatic acid every four days or so, and water.
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    Re: PH is creeping up...

    Quote Originally Posted by 257WbyMag
    What your are describing is probably not enough to account for your pH rise. Instead, you no longer have to benefit of the acidity of the trichlor tablets to keep your pH down since you are now doing the bleach thing.

    I live in the same area as you do and we likely have similar fill water. I have found that lowering my TA to around 70 has helped control the pH rise a little better with BBB. To get it down, go with muriatic acid. With my TA at 70, I rarely need to add anything else to the pool besides bleach, a little muriatic acid every four days or so, and water.
    OK, thanks for the tip. So it sounds like adding the MA will be an ongoing thing. I have Proteam Supreme Plus coming in the mail, but it won't be here until Monday. This will help a little if I understand correctly.

    Dave
    20K gal IG plaster pool, Manually chlorinated with 6% bleach, 1.5 HP Sta-Rite Dura-Glas II pump, Pentair FNS Plus 48 DE filter, Polaris 280

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    Re: PH is creeping up...

    I recommend testing your fill water. This will help you know how the addition of water will affect your pool chemistry.

    I too have hard water where I live, TA=200 so I have to constantly add acid to keep the PH and TA down after adding fill water.

    dave
    15,500 gal, inground gunite pool with 7 ft spa, 2 speed pump 2hp/.33hp, 3/4 hp booster pump, Intermatic P1353 timer, AutoPilot SC-48, Sand filter with ZeoBest, Heater, that I never use . . .

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    Re: PH is creeping up...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beez
    OK, thanks for the tip. So it sounds like adding the MA will be an ongoing thing. I have Proteam Supreme Plus coming in the mail, but it won't be here until Monday. This will help a little if I understand correctly.

    Dave
    borates are an additional buffer, but reducing your ta should help a lot. if you are going to do that (see the pool school article) do it before you add the borates as they will make it a harder/longer process to lower your ta.
    16x32 21,000 gallon in-ground exposed aggregate, 1.5hp pump, 120 sqft catridge filter, birdcage, solar panels, aquavac tigershark qc robot.

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    Re: PH is creeping up...

    chance are that you have high TA...you can easily bring it down to 70 to offset the aeration of the returns
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    Re: PH is creeping up...

    Right now my TA is at 80. I didn't think that was very high, but I suppose I should drop it to 70. Is that a big jump?
    20K gal IG plaster pool, Manually chlorinated with 6% bleach, 1.5 HP Sta-Rite Dura-Glas II pump, Pentair FNS Plus 48 DE filter, Polaris 280

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    Re: PH is creeping up...

    oh, heh. that shouldn't take much at all. actually I have no idea if that will even help. I assumed it was high with your issue. on my pool, 68oz of acid lowered my TA 10ppm and my ph down by 0.4. we have about the same size so it will probably be about the same. and you can use http://thepoolcalculator.com/ Effects of adding chemicals (at the bottom) to get a better estimate.
    16x32 21,000 gallon in-ground exposed aggregate, 1.5hp pump, 120 sqft catridge filter, birdcage, solar panels, aquavac tigershark qc robot.

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    Re: PH is creeping up...

    BTW, here are my current numbers:

    FC - 5
    CC - 0
    PH - 8.2(ish) still don't feel 100% confident comparing colors
    TA - 80
    CH - 290
    CYA - 55

    I had kind of thought the numbers looked good to go ahead and add the borates, but like you guys said, maybe I should lower the TA to 70 first. Sound good?

    Dave
    20K gal IG plaster pool, Manually chlorinated with 6% bleach, 1.5 HP Sta-Rite Dura-Glas II pump, Pentair FNS Plus 48 DE filter, Polaris 280

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    Re: PH is creeping up...

    I edited my post above.
    that ph is really high, did you add acid yet? enough acid to bring your ph down to a reasonable level will probably bring your TA down even lower than you want it to be.
    16x32 21,000 gallon in-ground exposed aggregate, 1.5hp pump, 120 sqft catridge filter, birdcage, solar panels, aquavac tigershark qc robot.

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    Re: PH is creeping up...

    Quote Originally Posted by reebok
    I edited my post above.
    that ph is really high, did you add acid yet? enough acid to bring your ph down to a reasonable level will probably bring your TA down even lower than you want it to be.
    Oh, I agree! That is the reason behind this thread I started. I have been waiting patiently, but every day getting more impatient, for the borates because I know adding them will reduce my PH a little. But it seems like every day(slight exaggeration) I'm seeing that PH creep a little higher.

    So now, I'm on my way to the store to pick up some MA. But if I'm understanding the process correctly, I want to keep my PH slightly on the high side before adding the borates. Like 7.8? Or should I shoot for more like 7.5?

    Thanks for the help,
    Dave
    20K gal IG plaster pool, Manually chlorinated with 6% bleach, 1.5 HP Sta-Rite Dura-Glas II pump, Pentair FNS Plus 48 DE filter, Polaris 280

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    Re: PH is creeping up...

    my understanding of proteam supreme plus is that it's a ph neutral product that does not affect ph. regardless, get your ph down to at least 7.8. 8.2 is way too high. and you'll probably need baking soda for the TA. oh maybe you meant borates will increase TA slightly? that may be true (it was for me, but I used borax from the store) not sure about proteam supreme plus.
    16x32 21,000 gallon in-ground exposed aggregate, 1.5hp pump, 120 sqft catridge filter, birdcage, solar panels, aquavac tigershark qc robot.

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    Re: PH is creeping up...

    borates act as a buffer...with a swg and TA in the 70-80 range, my ph has been locked around 7.4 and 7.6...best thing we ever did for our water and so soft feeling
    24'x52" AGP (13,500 Gallons), Intex SWG, (2)Solar Bear 4x20 panels, Hayward S220T Filter, 1/2hp Pentair Superflo

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    Re: PH is creeping up...

    I didn't think the borates on their own would reduce the pH; the idea is to have the actual chems be pretty much pH neutral. You want your pH to be at your long term goal before you put the borates in, because it will be harder to shift afterward.
    --paulr
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    Re: PH is creeping up...

    Hi Beez,

    Have you seen waterbear's post/article on adding borates?

    so-you-want-to-add-borates-to-your-pool-why-and-how-t4921.html
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    Re: PH is creeping up...

    I had to add a little MA every couple of weeks last year but I did the borax thing at the end of the season and this year I have not needed any! at least not yet.

    I am so happy to have found this forum and all the water geeks!! Thanks again for everyones help
    20 X 40, 28000 gal IG cement bottom, steel sides, vinyl liner, Pentair 4X160 pump, sand filter, SWG, Titan heat pump, coluorlogic and fiber optic. concrete-exposed aggregate deck
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    Re: PH is creeping up...

    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly
    Hi Beez,

    Have you seen waterbear's post/article on adding borates?

    so-you-want-to-add-borates-to-your-pool-why-and-how-t4921.html
    I have! I read it several times, but my understanding is that it mainly refers to adding borates via borax and MA. Nevertheless, just for safety sake, I will adjust PH to my target(7.5) before adding the Supreme Plus.

    BTW, adding enough MA to drop my PH from around 8 to somewhere between 7.5-7.8 didn't change the TA at all. It remains at 80, which from all I've read is pretty much where it needs to be.

    Thanks for all the feedback,

    Dave
    20K gal IG plaster pool, Manually chlorinated with 6% bleach, 1.5 HP Sta-Rite Dura-Glas II pump, Pentair FNS Plus 48 DE filter, Polaris 280

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    Re: PH is creeping up...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beez
    I will adjust PH to my target(7.5) before adding the Supreme Plus.

    BTW, adding enough MA to drop my PH from around 8 to somewhere between 7.5-7.8 didn't change the TA at all. It remains at 80, which from all I've read is pretty much where it needs to be.

    Thanks for all the feedback,

    Dave
    I use supreme plus myself and you DO need to adjust the pH to target befoe you use it.

    Also, dropping the pH form 8.0 to 7.5 will only drop the TA by about 8 ppm which is below the resolution of the TA test! That is why you did not see a change in TA. It did move but not enough to show up on the test.

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    Re: PH is creeping up...

    Quote Originally Posted by waterbear
    I use supreme plus myself and you DO need to adjust the pH to target befoe you use it.

    Also, dropping the pH form 8.0 to 7.5 will only drop the TA by about 8 ppm which is below the resolution of the TA test! That is why you did not see a change in TA. It did move but not enough to show up on the test.
    OK, cool, thanks for that! After receiving the above advice, I decided to go by the textbook on this one. Here are my revised numbers as of this a.m.:
    FC - 6.5 (within range, but a little higher than I would like)
    CC - 0.0
    PH - 7.5
    TA - 70
    CH - 290
    CYA - 55
    borates - 0
    So now, I think I'm ready for the Supreme Plus...anything else I'm missing?

    Thanks,
    Dave
    20K gal IG plaster pool, Manually chlorinated with 6% bleach, 1.5 HP Sta-Rite Dura-Glas II pump, Pentair FNS Plus 48 DE filter, Polaris 280

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    Re: PH is creeping up...

    why do you think your fc is high? it looks right on the money to me. unless you have an swg, in which care your cya is a bit under.
    16x32 21,000 gallon in-ground exposed aggregate, 1.5hp pump, 120 sqft catridge filter, birdcage, solar panels, aquavac tigershark qc robot.

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