New Build in Richmond, TX

[Bchatham1]

Hi All!
I have been researching and reading posts on this site for a few days and am excited to getting around to post! My wife and I (plus 3 kids: 6 yrs, 3 yrs, and 4 mo old) are am in the process of deciding between 2 PBs and I would appreciate any and all feedback from everyone. I feel like we’ve been going through this process all alone and feel very much relieved to have found this site as a resource. I'm a first time PB - second time pool owner - pumped about the decision and ready to get this show on the road! Feel free to comment on design, function, or anything else that you see fit - I appreciate all of your help!

PB 1 Design and specifics:



Pool/Spa Area
Pool Perimeter 104LF
Pool Area 548 SF
Pool dimensions 34'L x 21'6"W (widest point)
Spa Specs: 28KF Peremeter, 48SF Area, 6'x8' Length/Width, Height=Flush, Zero edge spillway ($10/SF glass tile allowance), countoured multi-level benches, 6 Hydro therapy jets
Steel/Plumbing/Gunite:
4 bar bond beam #4 rebar, Grade #60
Walls floors #3 rebar, Grade #60
Alternates in floors
Stainless steel ties
Hydraulic system all schedule 40 PVC
Automatic fill line w/ overflow to maintain water level
Pressure test hydraulic system
Pneumatically applied gunite
Bond Beam 12"w x 18" depth (top portion of shell)
Walls/Floors - 6" to 8" thickness
5000 to 6000 psi (NSPI standard is 3500 psi)
Lifetime warranty against pool shell leaking
Pool Equipment (all pentair includes 3 yr parts/labor warranty):
Pentair 2HP whisperFlo Pump (they are upgrading this to the variable speed)
1 HP SuperFlo Pump (water feature)
Clean and Clear 520 Cartridge Filter
Master Temp 400, BTU Heater NG (gas line included)
Silencer Air Blower
Easy Touch 4 Function w/ Wireless remote
Rainbow 320 Inline Chlorinator
Pentair Rebel Pool Cleaner
Intellibrite LED White Pool and White Spa Light
All plumbing is 2.5" schedule 40 PVC
Others:
18" raised center beam wall and left/right wall 12" raised
3 travertine scuppers
6" tanning ledge w/ 3 bubblers
Pebble sheen (L1) w/ 10 yr warranty



PB 2 Design and Specifics:
Custom formal pool/spa combination 34’ length x 16’6" avg. width overallsquare shape spa, 0" elevation with tile wall cap over wall inside pool area, 50sq. ft.
103’ total perimeter with 12"x12" travertine coping.
Approx. 535 sq. ft. of water surface in pool
Recreation pool - depths are 3’6” x 5' x 4’ (these depths are approximate and can be adjusted)
CONSTRUCTION
Standard steel reinforcement throughout pool – (4) ½” bar continuous throughout beam, ⅜” bar in walls and floor
Pool structure to be 100% gunite with continuous bond beam
Step entry off of bathing shelf as per plan.
Bathing Shelf step entry at spa side as per plan
Elongated bathin shelf off patio w/ telescopic mini geyser
17 linear feet of 12” raised beam with Ledge Stone facing
16 linear feet of 6” raised beam with Ledge Stone facing
(2) 16"x16" square pedestals 12" raised w/ travertine cap
(2) 16"x16" square pedestals 18" raised w/ travertine cap
Spa to be level w/ cut 12"x12" travertine coping to the outside w/ T-Brick flush to the inside and stacked open spillway and ledge stone facing surround

Spa to have safety rated channel drain in floor
All plumbing is 2” schedule 40 PVC pressure tested
(2) Two Hayward skimmers plumbed with separate line back to equipment
(2) Two V.G.B.A. safety main drains 3’ feet apart plumbed with separate line back to equipment.
Separate in wall V.G.B.A. safety in wall suction for water feature pump.
3/4” fill line inserted in tile band operated by a gate valve and pool miser auto fill.
2” Overflow outlet tied into 4” area drain
4” area drain line run to street, (6 to 8) heads, applicable down spouts tied in.
Electrical hook-up from main to equipment located on right side of house
GFI electrical plug/breaker for lights
All gas line from existing meter to heater included (Meter upgrade by homeowner & Center Point Energy.)
(2) Two clean-ups – one after gunite and one after plaster
TILE, COPING, DECKS & PLASTER
6” tile band around pool in your choice of any standard tile
Ledgestone facing to the beam and wrapped around the spa
Approx. 485 sq. ft. of new CRS (Comfort Coat) textured decking as per plan
Concrete for new deck will be tied with 3/8" steel rebar on 16" center for added strength.
Satin Matrix tier II small pebble finish (cost value $3,900)
EQUIPMENT
Hayward 5030 Quad Cluster cartridge filter
Hayward Variable speed pool pump
Hayward Super II 1.5 hp pump for water feature
Hayward Lo-Nox induced draft heater – 400,000 BTU
Hayward Tiger Shark robotic cleaner
On Command controller with Aqua Pod Remote
Polaris 1.5 hp QT blower
(6) Six Hayward – 3 oscillating and 3 adjustable
Hayward Crystal Logic – (1 pool, 1 spa) low voltage White LED lights with 300 watt transformer
Swimming pool equipment on gunite pad.
(2) 16"x16" square pedestals 12" raised w/ travertine cap

 

[kimkats]

HI! What a fun time in your life! Scary time as well! I have some questions for you to think about. The two designs look quite a bit alike so now it comes down to other things. Are you ready?

-Have you "vetted" either of the PBs? Gone to see some of their past pools? Talk to the owners of the pools to find out if they would use them again. That question alone will tell you just about everything you need to know about a builder.

-Who did you click with? Have you talked to the build supervisor or just the design person?

-Pay draws-how are they spaced out? I have ideas but want to know what they say about theirs.

We will start with these and go from there.

Kim

 

[Sseaman]

I don't have any specific advice but like the look of your design

 

[Flippy]

Howdy neighbor. I really like the design of your pool. The only thing I would change is to go with color LED's lights. Not sure how much difference they are in cost but we enjoy the show while we sit out by the pool at night with ours.

 

[Bchatham1]

Hi Kim - We are absolutely ready! Our last house had a 10 year old salt water pool which we ended up selling back in 2014. My 6 year old daughter frequently talks about missing that pool (and so do I!).

As for the PBs, I received 6 quotes and narrowed it down to these 2. These were the 2 that I liked the most. I had these 2 PBs quote our favorite design for an apples to apples price comparison which is why they look almost identical. Both have been in business for over 15 years and have built a few pools in the neighborhood (i have seen all of them). I've also checked BBB and multiple other online sources and only found exceptional reviews. PB 1 is more budget friendly and PB 2 is an amazing designer that is coming in about $8K higher.

Payment schedules:
PB 1 = 35% start / 30% at gunite / 30% at decks / 5% completion
PB 2 =20% excavation completion / 50% gunite completion / 25% tile,coping, decking completion / 5% completion of pebble plaster

I have met with the construction managers (I can't say enough good things about both). We are partial to the design of PB 1, but I don't like that his price is almost $8k (14%) higher! I've gone back to him with the other quote to see if he will come down and am impatiently waiting to hear back . I really can't justify paying that much more for almost the same pool (unless I'm missing something)!

Thanks Sseaman.

Flippy - thanks and hello there neighbor! I will definitely make sure the lights are LED.

 

[bmoreswim]

...
PB 1 is more budget friendly and PB 2 is an amazing designer that is coming in about $8K higher.
...
We are partial to the design of PB 1, but I don't like that his price is almost $8k (14%) higher!
...
I will definitely make sure the lights are LED.

Welcome to TFP!! It is nice to find a community of pool enthusiasts to share the experience with. And you'll have a great source of information to keep your pool in great shape - and not break the bank maintaining it.

Is PB1 or PB2 more expensive?

And also to clarify, you may have just missed typing it but the comment on the lights was that they should be color LED's, not just LED's.

I think the process you have followed thus far is great. Narrowing down to 2 PB's and then having them quote the same design. Next I would put these two quotes into Excel by line item (with all equipment model numbers included - get them if they didn't provide them all). Then you can see very clearly how they match up. Some things like brand of equipment (Pentair vs. Hayward) are not as important to most, but something like the size of the filter will jump out.

I'll point out a few areas that will often skew pricing for one quote versus another. It comes down to what level of "standard" they are pricing in for the following (which of course you can stray from at your wallet's expense):

• Decking (S.F., surface type, drainage, reinforcement type, etc.)
• Pool surface finish (brand, smoothness, color, additives, etc.)
• Coping (material, thickness, edge finish, etc.)
• Automation capabilities (number of relays, number of actuated valves - tell them exactly what you expect to be able to do with it - VERY SPECIFICALLY - and have them walk you through what is needed to do it and that it is included)
• Regardless of the brand of equipment, Raypak NG heaters are the most recommended brand we see - simplest design and easiest to fix. They work with any automation system.
• NG lines (inclusion or exclusion, will meter need to be upgraded, etc.)

 

[Bchatham1]

Welcome to TFP!! It is nice to find a community of pool enthusiasts to share the experience with. And you'll have a great source of information to keep your pool in great shape - and not break the bank maintaining it.

Is PB1 or PB2 more expensive?

And also to clarify, you may have just missed typing it but the comment on the lights was that they should be color LED's, not just LED's.

I think the process you have followed thus far is great. Narrowing down to 2 PB's and then having them quote the same design. Next I would put these two quotes into Excel by line item (with all equipment model numbers included - get them if they didn't provide them all). Then you can see very clearly how they match up. Some things like brand of equipment (Pentair vs. Hayward) are not as important to most, but something like the size of the filter will jump out.

I'll point out a few areas that will often skew pricing for one quote versus another. It comes down to what level of "standard" they are pricing in for the following (which of course you can stray from at your wallet's expense):

• Decking (S.F., surface type, drainage, reinforcement type, etc.)
• Pool surface finish (brand, smoothness, color, additives, etc.)
• Coping (material, thickness, edge finish, etc.)
• Automation capabilities (number of relays, number of actuated valves - tell them exactly what you expect to be able to do with it - VERY SPECIFICALLY - and have them walk you through what is needed to do it and that it is included)
• Regardless of the brand of equipment, Raypak NG heaters are the most recommended brand we see - simplest design and easiest to fix. They work with any automation system.
• NG lines (inclusion or exclusion, will meter need to be upgraded, etc.)

PB1 is $8K more. And yes... I did miss the "color" in the led statement. Thanks for clarifying.

Also, I just heard back and PB1 said the Pentair pool equipment costs approximately $2,500 more than hayward (assuming specs are comparable). Does that seem right? I like your suggestion to put into excel for easy comparison. And those are some great points on the other items that I'm going to do some research on.

 

[bmoreswim]

Personally I'd pocket the $2,500 and get Hayward. We have it and it's been troublefree (HA). That said, the main comments I've seen here regarding Pentair over Hayward relate to automation and the mobile apps working better. I could be wrong there but we'll see if anyone follows up on that aspect.

 

[LDVPool]

PB1 is $8K more. And yes... I did miss the "color" in the led statement. Thanks for clarifying.

Also, I just heard back and PB1 said the Pentair pool equipment costs approximately $2,500 more than hayward (assuming specs are comparable). Does that seem right? I like your suggestion to put into excel for easy comparison. And those are some great points on the other items that I'm going to do some research on.

There may be other differences in the two bids.

(1) PB2 does not stipulate the PSI of the Shotcrete. To give you some idea as to how this can affect the pricing, it is costing us $2,250 to go from 4000 to 4500 PSI. The increase in PSI is due to the alkalinity of our soil. That was determined by a soil/geological report. What reasons have you been given for the higher PSI in PB1's bid? He either knows something that PB2 does not know or he has higher engineering standards.

(2) I also noticed that PB1 gives you a $10 allowance for pool tile and PB2 only $6.

(3) As to the pool equipment, when I priced out the differences on Amazon between a Pentair Whisperflow VS and a Hayward EcoStar VS, I found the Hayward pump to be more expensive.

 

[kimkats]

What a great 1st post! Nice job finding those differences! THANKS!

Kim

 

[LDVPool]

What a great 1st post! Nice job finding those differences! THANKS!

Kim

Thank you and Hello.

I've been lurking while planning our own pool build. We signed the contract in December and are waiting for HOA approval to start the dig. My only regret about finding this site is the discovery that things are so much more expensive in So California.

One more observation about the equipment.

As I think someone said above, it is really important to get the model number of all the equipment. Demand to know exactly what you are getting and then compare the prices for yourself.

PB1 intends to install a Pentair Whisperflo VS.
PB2 intends to install a Hayward VS Pump. But which one?

The EcoStar or the TriStar? The EcoStar is the top of the line and the equivalent of Pentair's Intelliflo. If I remember correctly, the TriStar is the equivalent of the Whisperflo in Hayward's lineup. You want to know what the equivalent products are so that you can compare the prices better. Your PB should know better than I do what the equivalent products are.

In general, let me say I like your overall design. Classic and symmetrical. If it it were my pool, the only thing I would cut is the bubbler on the middle shelf. It seems to me that from the house the focal point should be the bond beam with its water features.

 

[Bchatham1]

Personally I'd pocket the $2,500 and get Hayward. We have it and it's been troublefree (HA). That said, the main comments I've seen here regarding Pentair over Hayward relate to automation and the mobile apps working better. I could be wrong there but we'll see if anyone follows up on that aspect.

If the only benefit is automation and mobile apps.... then heck I'll like push for the savings and get the Hayward. I'll automate myself aka teach my kids how to help when they are old enough! Hehe

 

[Bchatham1]

There may be other differences in the two bids.

(1) PB2 does not stipulate the PSI of the Shotcrete. To give you some idea as to how this can affect the pricing, it is costing us $2,250 to go from 4000 to 4500 PSI. The increase in PSI is due to the alkalinity of our soil. That was determined by a soil/geological report. What reasons have you been given for the higher PSI in PB1's bid? He either knows something that PB2 does not know or he has higher engineering standards.

(2) I also noticed that PB1 gives you a $10 allowance for pool tile and PB2 only $6.

(3) As to the pool equipment, when I priced out the differences on Amazon between a Pentair Whisperflow VS and a Hayward EcoStar VS, I found the Hayward pump to be more expensive.

1 - Good to know re the PSI price. PB2 didn't know but would check into it. PB1 says the clay can be problematic and he does this to ensure there aren't any issues down the road... especially since he's on the hook with a lifetime warranty against leaks.
2 -PB1 wants to use glass tile to achieve the look of a submerged spa. My concern was the $10 wouldn't be enough for glass tile. I spoke with him tonight about this and the $10 is actually his cost. He's already got a few at the $10 price point so I guess the value to me is even higher than the $10/tile. Plus PB1 has a guy on staff who does nothing but glass tiles and complex detailed tile work - I was glad to hear this after reading about a few disasters with tile work installs.
3 - Interesting.... I am going to suggest to PB1 that we go with the Hayward... we'll see if hes willing to bring the price down by $2,500!
Thanks!

 

[Bchatham1]

Thank you and Hello.

I've been lurking while planning our own pool build. We signed the contract in December and are waiting for HOA approval to start the dig. My only regret about finding this site is the discovery that things are so much more expensive in So California.

One more observation about the equipment.

As I think someone said above, it is really important to get the model number of all the equipment. Demand to know exactly what you are getting and then compare the prices for yourself.

PB1 intends to install a Pentair Whisperflo VS.
PB2 intends to install a Hayward VS Pump. But which one?

The EcoStar or the TriStar? The EcoStar is the top of the line and the equivalent of Pentair's Intelliflo. If I remember correctly, the TriStar is the equivalent of the Whisperflo in Hayward's lineup. You want to know what the equivalent products are so that you can compare the prices better. Your PB should know better than I do what the equivalent products are.

In general, let me say I like your overall design. Classic and symmetrical. If it it were my pool, the only thing I would cut is the bubbler on the middle shelf. It seems to me that from the house the focal point should be the bond beam with its water features.

Excellent suggestions. I'll definitely get those models for a better comparison. I think I agree with you on the bubbler. What about an umbrella hole? The other change I'm considering is removing the tanning shelf next to the hot tub and making the middle shelf 3 feet deeper (growing from 3' to 6' deep). We're basically increasing the size of the swim lane and moving the main tanning shelf to the middle. Plus, as it stands now, I can't do much with the 3' (deep) of ledge space in the middle. Any thoughts on this change?

 

[kimkats]

I like the idea of removing the shelf by the spa. I might be tempted to leave it as a sitting bench so you could hop in and out of the spa and still chat.

Kim

 

[BigEinAZ]

It is puzzling to me why an increase of 500 psi would make any difference in the performance of your pool shell. There are two measures of concrete strength, compressive strength and tensile strength. Concrete is very strong in compressive loading but not in tensile loading. Tensile strength is roughly 10 percent of compressive strength, so a 500 psi increase in compressive strength only yields a 50 psi increase in tensile strength. Reinforcement is designed to suppliment tensile strength, so the normal way to provide higher tensile strength is to increase the "area of steel" either by using larger diameter reinforcing members or decreasing the spacing between smaller diameter members. The fact that he sites high soil alkalinity as a reason is also puzzling. Concrete is already alkaline by nature, so if there is a danger of akaline attack from outside the matrix, it would seem that thickening the shell would be more appropos than increasing compressive strength requirements. Higher psi doesn't offer an increase in density or permeability. Allowing more cover between the soil and the reinforcement may be the best approach and ANY reinforced concrete should have a minimum of three inches of concrete cover between the soil and any reinforcing steel. Bottom line is, he must uphold his warranty so if he says you need 4500 psi over 4000 psi you don't have much of a choice. The amount of portland cement needed to raise the strength by 500 psi does not warrant the additional amount he is asking for however. A well proportioned 4000 psi mix will usually yeild in the high 4000 - low 5000 psi range at maturity, so again I don't see the issue.

 

[bmoreswim]

It is puzzling to me why an increase of 500 psi would make any difference in the performance of your pool shell. There are two measures of concrete strength, compressive strength and tensile strength. Concrete is very strong in compressive loading but not in tensile loading. Tensile strength is roughly 10 percent of compressive strength, so a 500 psi increase in compressive strength only yields a 50 psi increase in tensile strength. Reinforcement is designed to suppliment tensile strength, so the normal way to provide higher tensile strength is to increase the "area of steel" either by using larger diameter reinforcing members or decreasing the spacing between smaller diameter members. The fact that he sites high soil alkalinity as a reason is also puzzling. Concrete is already alkaline by nature, so if there is a danger of akaline attack from outside the matrix, it would seem that thickening the shell would be more appropos than increasing compressive strength requirements. Higher psi doesn't offer an increase in density or permeability. Allowing more cover between the soil and the reinforcement may be the best approach and ANY reinforced concrete should have a minimum of three inches of concrete cover between the soil and any reinforcing steel. Bottom line is, he must uphold his warranty so if he says you need 4500 psi over 4000 psi you don't have much of a choice. The amount of portland cement needed to raise the strength by 500 psi does not warrant the additional amount he is asking for however. A well proportioned 4000 psi mix will usually yeild in the high 4000 - low 5000 psi range at maturity, so again I don't see the issue.

And it is curious that I've never seen such a discussion about paying more for a slightly higher (or even much higher) psi mix on any thread. But my wife also tells me I forget what she wants me to remember so there's that.

 

[LDVPool]

It is puzzling to me why an increase of 500 psi would make any difference in the performance of your pool shell. [...] Bottom line is, he must uphold his warranty so if he says you need 4500 psi over 4000 psi you don't have much of a choice. The amount of portland cement needed to raise the strength by 500 psi does not warrant the additional amount he is asking for however. A well proportioned 4000 psi mix will usually yeild in the high 4000 - low 5000 psi range at maturity, so again I don't see the issue.

It was the recommendation of the Geologist. (We commissioned a soil report at the behest of the PB, the HOA, and the Local Building Department.)

I also realize now that I misspoke. It is not the alkalinity of the soil, but its sulfur content. The report recommends "Type V cement, for a [presumed] severe category of soil sulfate, be used to achieve 4500psi concrete (Table 4.3.1 of ACI 318-05)."

For my own edification, I checked some of the other values in the report, such as the various EFP values. I must admit, however, that I did not check the table the Geologist cited. I relied instead on a PSN article about shotcrete strength which claimed that most codes require 4500psi in high sulfate areas.

As to cost, I did take note of it, but I did not make a big deal out of it for various reasons: the high reputation of the pool builder, my previous understanding that he did not come cheap, and the comparable proposals. Frankly, there was more sticker shock over other things, such as the labor costs for the glass tile (waterline and 270 negative edge spa).

 

[LDVPool]

Excellent suggestions. I'll definitely get those models for a better comparison. I think I agree with you on the bubbler. What about an umbrella hole? The other change I'm considering is removing the tanning shelf next to the hot tub and making the middle shelf 3 feet deeper (growing from 3' to 6' deep). We're basically increasing the size of the swim lane and moving the main tanning shelf to the middle. Plus, as it stands now, I can't do much with the 3' (deep) of ledge space in the middle. Any thoughts on this change?

As to increasing the size of the shelf, here are the questions I would consider:

Will it protrude too much into the center of the pool and throw off the proportions? At the moment, excluding the spa and tanning shelf on the right side, you have a nicely proportioned body of water. How will the geometry of the water appear after you increase the size of the middle shelf? Will the corner of the shelf be too close to the corner of the spa?

Will you be happy with the shape of the bigger shelf? One of the remarkable aspects about the design now is the shape of the shelf. It's a positive-space, half circle which mirrors the negative-space, half circle on the other side of the pool. If you extended it 3 feet, what would be the final shape of the shelf?

Do you want to be in the pool, but sitting next to the spa? You can do that with the other tanning shelf where it is. But there are options.

If the proposals are itemized, you should be able to figure out the costs or savings for taking out one thing and adding another. If not, make sure the final costs reflect the changes you have made. If you reduce the number of bubblers, you should get some kind of credit.

 

[Backyard_Lap_Pool]

Have any of the pool builders mentioned doing a soils analysis by chance? The company I used to work for built a few build-on-your-lot homes down in Richmond and the soil down there tended to be highly expansive (compared with other areas of Houston). Consequently, we added piers under the slab to help prevent settling during dry seasons / droughts due to the clay-rich soil contracting. (This was less expensive than pier and beam, but still ~$20k more than the standard post-tension slab on grade design.)

Just a thought.

(I had a soil analysis done on my lot up in Katy and it thankfully came in as lean clay (non-expansive) down through 20 ft.)


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