Phosphate problem off the chart

Wow Bruce,,,, that's unbelievable... all that due to the acidic conditions due to putting pucks in the skimmer??

All the damage I see is on the pool side of the skimmer outside the skimmer door so something is not adding up...

blizz
 
To be fair in the worst of cases, pucks were placed in the skimmer and then the pump did not run for quite some time. Even if that isn't the case, it's not good to add (hardly) anything in the skimmer, specifically things that are "strong" chemically, bleach, acid, pucks etc.
 
Hi Joel

Yes I have well water and it's horrible... luckily I only have a 10,000 gal pool so dumping 25% to try to get the CYA a little more under control is doable..

All about timing for the Grandkids LOL

Blizz
 
Ditch the pucks and go exclusively with liquid chlorine, ie. bleach, or you're going to be back in the same boat with respect to high CYA.
 
I thought that HTH granules don't have Stabilizer in them... is that wrong?? The thought of having a bunch of liquid bleach around kid is the other issure. The store brand chlorine is all around 8%.. I'll have to check and see what the 5gal containers are at the pool store...

Blizz
 
I thought that HTH granules don't have Stabilizer in them... is that wrong?? The thought of having a bunch of liquid bleach around kid is the other issure. The store brand chlorine is all around 8%.. I'll have to check and see what the 5gal containers are at the pool store...

Blizz
Yes, that is wrong. All solid forms of chlorine bring stuff to your pool that builds up. Look on the side of the HTH bottle and it is probably Dichlor.

Most of us use the 8.25% bleach or have a salt water chlorine generator. The higher % chlorine (usually the 5 Gallon ones at the pool store) are 10 or 12.5% IF it is fresh. Higher % chlorinating liquid degrades faster than bleach, so many time the bleach is almost or more cost effective.
 
Thanks for that info... Good information... probably better off getting some cases of household bleach then...

I appreciate everyone's input.... Having this pool for over 20 years and I'm still learning thanks to a forum like this... Hopefully this will help others if they see the thread.

Blizz
 
Thanks for that info... Good information... probably better off getting some cases of household bleach then...

I appreciate everyone's input.... Having this pool for over 20 years and I'm still learning thanks to a forum like this... Hopefully this will help others if they see the thread.

Blizz
We hope it helps others, but it is your thread. We are here to help you make your pool trouble free.
 

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thanks again everyone... never realized how important the CYA number was concerning the amount of FC needed to keep up with any algae issues.

Blizz
Its the hidden secret of the pool industry. While scientific studies started being published in the 70's regarding CYA & FC levels the pool industry still recommends FC between 1 - 3 (maybe 2 - 4) and most say CYA up to 150 is fine. The lucky few who follow these recommendations have no problems. The others get on the chemical sales roller coaster at the pool store. Then, she nothing else can be sold/tried the pool store says they have the dreaded "chlorine lock" and are told to do,a water exchange.

To be honest, this is the way most of them have been trained and they believe that it is the truth.

I had this discussion with a pool builder/pool store owner. He didn't believe me and asked that I send him the documentation. Thanks to Chem Geek I was able to put together a full explanation including links to the back up scientific studies and email it to him. He never responded. As he is building a pool for a friend, he was asked by the friend if he got the information. He changed the subject without answering.
 
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Vicious cycle,,,,, well water causing severe staining, causing use of stain treatment chemicals, causing high phosphate, causing available food for Algae, coupled with hi CYA, coupled with increase of Dichlor = more CYA = not enough available chlorine = dumping 50% of water to reduce phosphate and reduce CYA = more new water = more metal contaminated water... and on and on and on so the cycle starts again...

Time to start looking at condo living.. LOL

Blizz

This is a common description from new members that come here looking for an effective solution (and much lower cost). The other great thing about this forum is that unlike many internet forums, there are experts here that watch for incorrect or misleading advice, correct the advice, and provide an effective solution. Good to have you here!
 
Good morning, Fm. I was in the hospital yesterday unexpectedly and didn't see the thread, but I will be happy to give you my take on the best way forward here.

I am on well, so I know how that battle goes, and also now know quite a bit about resultant high phosphates and how to keep water perfectly clear despite it ;) You have a lot of moving parts here, so take your time reading and understanding before you begin remedy, please. I am posting a lot of info here and I don't expect you to absorb it in one take ;) But I need to post it sequentially in a single post so that you can get the big picture before moving forward as I may not be around a lot to post back, depending on hospital jazz ;)

My method suggested here has a bit of "front end" investment in terms of time, learning curve, and strategy, but the payoff will be a pool that is EASY PEASY to manage long-term ;)

For starters, just to refresh, start out reading ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry -- wherever I link, its something I want you to read a few times ;)

Now, About Phosphates On Well
First off, the simplified truth of it is that IF you follow TFP pool care parameters, where your CYA is at a basically fixed level (notably preferably NOT 90) and use liquid chlorine or bleach to target daily to the [fc/cya][/FC/cya] -- you WILL NOT have problems due to high phosphates.

In other words, in what TFP calls a properly sanitized pool, where the FC is 7.5% of the CYA, phosphates will never matter because algae will always be killed before it can feed on the nutrient.

My phosphates can only be read via dilution and a high limit reader -- unneccessary for average user, used only in my case to experiment, btw. This is due to a heavy reliance on HEDP type sequestrants -- over time, they all break down into orthophosphate.

SO, in your case, despite the well, the best move you can make is a partial drain to get your CYA to a lower level, eg 40 would be ideal. You want to do this so that you can start using TFP pool care method to have a sure fire way to avoid triggering algae when you have high phosphates -- because I am pretty sure that life without sequestrant would NOT be viable for you on a well ;)

BUT before you do that, there is the complication of the well, which I will try to help address in my steps below.

Preparation To Adopt TFP, Then Slam

1. TESTING - If you don't already have one, first order a TFT100 or Taylor k2006 test kit specifically. You need this type of FAS/Dpd test kit to accurately read your OWN CYA and to be in a position when you ultimately SLAM Process to accurately read your FC frequently. Well management also goes better when you can precisely dial in your parameters.

2. EXTRA SEQUESTRANT - Before you slam to get rid of visible algae, I am going to suggest that you make sure you have a start up dose of metal sequestrant on hand because slamming will wear it down. With metals, its best to avoid shocking generally by keeping the water bulletproof to begin with, because the high FC can cause your metals to oxidize and stain or tint your water.

BUT you now have visible algae, so you will need to slam, so there are some ways to control any fallout you have from that.

Metal Magic sequestrant in particular has worked well for me to both sequester the metal AND remove fresh iron stains from high ph etc. Here's a link to how to test its efficacy. In your case, I'd get some of this on hand, but your existing brand may also be fine -- I just don't know it.
http://www.proteampoolcare.com/images/uploads/MetalMagicSpongeTest.pdf

3. FILTERING YOUR FILL WATER - Before starting your water change, consider creating a single or dual pre-filter set up in order to reduce the amount of NEW metal (presumably iron) going INTO the pool.
This will only reduce it, not eliminate it, but will help you going forward needing less sequestrant and getting less staining.

If you buy 1 or 2 of these filter housings:Pentek 150469 3/4 Scientific

And in a 2-filter set up, a 5 micron and 1 micron filter: example One Big Blue Sediment Filter Housing 1 Micron - 4.5 - - Amazon.com
(Or just the 1 micron)

And attach that to your fill source you will be able to mechanically remove a good deal of the iron. The amount depend on how high the ppm of iron are in your well, and the flow rate. The dual 5 micron to 1 micron approach is better because that helps the 1 micron not clog. Your filling will be slower.

Note that trucking metal free water in is always an option for dilution, but you'd still wan to filter your top up water anyway.

4. WATER CHANGE - once you have the test kit (if you don't already) and some way to reduce the new metal (like the filter set up I mentioned - you could also use a cheaper, disposable filter like prefresh, which is rated for 8,000 gallons, but as its disposable, the filter housing is a better long term option) then do a partial water change -- or a series if needed due to your water table.

5. TEST FIRST - BEFORE SLAMMING & BEFORE SEQUESTRANT: in your shoes, while changing 50% of the water, I would add some liquid chlorine to keep the FC higher, eg. 8 ppm, but not yet at shock level IF your current water is not already green from algae. I'd do this in the hopes that the water change plus higher FC would help avoid a full slam.

Then I'd do an Overnight Chlorine Loss Test to decide whether I still needed to slam - but only f there was no visible algae. Visible algae necessitates a slam.

6. IF YOU SLAM - wait until you're done and passed the OCLT before adding sequestrant. If you need to slam, read up, post back, etc. everyone will help you through. Here's the link again: SLAM Process

7. IF YOU DON'T SLAM - add a startup dose of your sequestrant.

If your water tints or you get staining during the slam, I feel you'll be able to clean it up with the sequestrant, so don't panic ;)

Once you've done these things, going forward, you pool care regime will be super simple and quick. You'll check you ph and FC daily, and by using liquid chlorine or bleach, will only likely eed to check cya etc. monthly. By dosing to the higher end of the FC for your CYA daily, algae will never again have a chance to feast on those delectable phosphates ;)

This is all true whether you have high phosphates or not. It just becomes even more important to maintain to the TFP parameters when your waters a little more nutritious/delicious to algae ;)
 
First off I hope things are well with you medically and I appreciate you reply..
I have a TF-100 test kit and try to stay on top of things.. I never and mean really never have any algae problems and my pool is over 20 years old probably because I always tried to keep my FC around 4..

I started this thread because one morning I went to vacuum and notice what appeared to be a slight greenish powered/smoke on a small area of my pool when brushing. I elected to just use 2 lbs of shock and see if that corrected the problem.. and also have the water tested at my local pool store to verify my result. As of now it is not showing up any longer but it's quite early in the season to have any problems.

Of course going to the store got me into trouble and opened another can of worms concerning the Phosphate issue... They pretty much confirmed that my number were correct but seemed extremely concerned with the phosphate and suggested a chemical to reduce them adding that Phosphate is food for algae so of course I purchased it... basically something similar to FLOCK because with 10 min of adding the suggested dose, the crystal clear pool was cloudy which they told me to expect. I let the pump run nonstop and with a lot of vacuuming the pool cleared up within 2 days... No more adding that stuff although I could see some type of sediment on the floor of the pool which I pumped out.

I really like the idea of the pre filter and will make that my next purchase. Before I Slam the pool, I have to get things together for the refill because I definitely want to get my CYA down by 50% to a workable range.

For now I will use liquid Chlorine as suggested by other members and get my FC up around 8.

I hope by doing this it does not discolor swimwear and make the blond hair on the grandkids green... That is my main concern at this point. Sounds like a very hot week coming up so I'm putting off the partial drain.

Thanks again for you reply and suggestions.

Gary Blizzard

I never realized the huge effect that CYA had on the FC
 
Your pool will not get clear if you just raise your FC to 8. It does need a SLAM to clear it.

CYA greatly moderates the strength of chlorine. For example, if you had an FC level of 10 ppm with a CYA level of 50 ppm that pool water would be significantly less harsh on skin, hair, etc than pool water that had 1 ppm of FC with 0 ppm CYA. With your high CYA of 80 ppm, you could swim in the pool without a concern at up to 30 ppm FC. Pool School - Chlorine / CYA Chart

It is a myth that chlorine causes blonde hair to turn green. Metals such as iron or copper in the water will cause staining of blonde hair, not chlorine. Iron contamination tends to turn blonde hair orange, copper contamination tends to turn hair green.
 
^jv, I think he meant that the small patch of visible algae is gone after the pool store shock, right Gary? (Cross-posted)

Great news, Gary, that you have the kit and otherwise sound relatively under control ;) Just keeping that FC (via liquid) in check for your CYA level for the next bit should be fine if te water is clear now...and if you have no visible algae now, given the metal situation, you may be able to avoid the slam after water change too.

Since wells don't have copper, suspect most of your metals are iron so I doubt you'd have the same swimsuit/hair problem of folks with high copper...IME sequestered iron and or lower levels doesn't really tint air or suits much. So while you're getting sorted for an eventual cya reduction/water change, have fun with the g-kids ;)
 
Yes Swamp woman is correct.. The pool is crystal clear at this point and no visible signs of algae for two days now.. Next step is to makeup the prefilter in preparation for a 33% water change so I can get my CYA in check.

Thanks again everyone.

Gary Blizzard
 
Since I am basically going to be dead in the water for a couple days

I think what I will do is lower the pool water by 50% leaving me with about 5000 gal of pool water and then slam it before refilling just for good measure...

If this sounds like a bad idea or if members see a potential drawback, please let me know...

Waiting on my Penteck housing and filter in the meantime to help out with the metal issues in my well water..

Blizz
 

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