Dallas builders only recommending Ozone/Mineral systems??

[gocubs418]

All,

This piggybacks on my first topic, but I want to draw out all of the comments on this topic alone...

I am calling 8 of the top builders in my area and the majority of them have all said we are installing Ozone/Mineral systems, not Salt. Mainly for the fact that it is corrosive to stone work and coping and the Salt system cannot handle the heat in July and August.

So what is it guys.... are they protecting themselves from future headaches or are they feeding me a load? I just don't get it....

Am I making this a bigger deal than it needs to be? From what I read on here, it sounds like Ozone and Mineral is just complete trash and useless. Sounds like I am just paying for a fancy chlorine system.

Now, they will install the Salt system, but they asked that I don't cry to them when the Salt eats away at the pool.

Thank you, I did search this topic, but could only find few year old threads.

 

[Isaac-1]

This seems to be a new central / north Texas things that has just started in the last few months. We have seen several reports similar to yours, mostly from the DFW and Austin areas, my guess is pressure is coming from somewhere, maybe a regional builders association that is now preaching this, maybe a manufacturer or manufacturers rep, or maybe the stone suppliers, I don't know. I just know they seemed to be all too happy to sell SWG's and soft Oklahoma flagstone a year or two ago. As to what I would say back to them is there is no way they would be installing a mineral system of a waste of money Ozone system on any pool I am paying for. The proper solution here is to use a stone that is not so soft, or properly seal it, remember that even without an SWG these soft stones are going to deteriorate over time.

 

[gocubs418]

This seems to be a new central / north Texas things that has just started in the last few months. We have seen several reports similar to yours, mostly from the DFW and Austin areas, my guess is pressure is coming from somewhere, maybe a regional builders association that is now preaching this, maybe a manufacturer or manufacturers rep, or maybe the stone suppliers, I don't know. I just know they seemed to be all too happy to sell SWG's and soft Oklahoma flagstone a year or two ago. As to what I would say back to them is there is no way they would be installing a mineral system of a waste of money Ozone system on any pool I am paying for. The proper solution here is to use a stone that is not so soft, or properly seal it, remember that even without an SWG these soft stones are going to deteriorate over time.

Is Oklahoma Flagstone too soft? That is what the builder is using for the stone. What is an alternative?

 

[Isaac-1]

I will leave that topic for someone with more first hand experience, but from what I have read on here is that some of it is softer than others so it depends on where exactly it comes from.

 

[cowboycasey]

here is some info, all chlorine no matter the source has salt in it, so all chlorine pools are salt pools tell them that and they will scratch their heads LOL... I think they are getting fed the info and someone probably sued for some reason and they are now covering themselves...

if you take care of your pool and monitor you water levels it will be fine

they are correct in one way, in 100 years the stone may be etched

 

[JoyfulNoise]

If they won't sell you a salt system them just tell them you'll add it later yourself or they can install an inline trichlor puck chlorinator. Just make sure they leave you a good 2-ft straight section of PVC somewhere after the heater but before the pipes head below ground for "future upgrades".

I'll say it succinctly as you can search TFP yourself and read all the details - mineral ion systems and UV/ozone systems are NOT sanitizers, you MUST have chlorine. The additional "benefits" of UV/ozone are immeasurable at best and minerals (aka, copper and silver ions) will do nothing but cause you headaches in the future.

 

[pooldv]

I really believe that the ozone/mineral manufacturers are providing significant discounts/commissions to lure pool builders into the market. We are starting our 5th swim season and my OK flagstone and saltwater are fine. They look pretty much the same as they did when installed. That is with two of those years in severe drought. And I also spent a year with much higher (>5000ppm) than normal (3500ppm) salt level due to an error on my part. I am not aware of a single user on TFP who has reported premature failure or damage to stone caused by a saltwater pool. The longer I participate here the more I believe it is an urban myth or at least a very rare occurrence. This is my second saltwater pool and my next one will also be saltwater. There is also more discussion on the subject in my build thread, link in sig.

My PB will gladly build you a pool with OK flagstone and saltwater. Reber Pools

A look around TFP will show you lots of people with copper stains in their pools who are spending lots of time and money to eliminate them. I highly recommend not intentionally adding metals to your pool. More here, Alternative sanitizers and pools--The Truth!!

 

[gocubs418]

I really believe that the ozone/mineral manufacturers are providing significant discounts/commissions to lure pool builders into the market. We are starting our 5th swim season and my OK flagstone and saltwater are fine. They look pretty much the same as they did when installed. That is with two of those years in severe drought. And I also spent a year with much higher (>5000ppm) than normal (3500ppm) salt level due to an error on my part. I am not aware of a single user on TFP who has reported premature failure or damage to stone caused by a saltwater pool. The longer I participate here the more I believe it is an urban myth or at least a very rare occurrence. This is my second saltwater pool and my next one will also be saltwater. There is also more discussion on the subject in my build thread, link in sig.

My PB will gladly build you a pool with OK flagstone and saltwater. Reber Pools

A look around TFP will show you lots of people with copper stains in their pools who are spending lots of time and money to eliminate them. I highly recommend not intentionally adding metals to your pool. More here, Alternative sanitizers and pools--The Truth!!

Thank you. I am going to send you a PM. I am so glad that I found this website or I would be drinking the koolaid and paying the fat checks to the PBs.

 

[jblizzle]

I am not sure I could find one thread on this forum that shows Stone being damaged by salt water pool. I recall one thread where some flagstone was falling apart but I don't even think it was a saltwater pool there's just a large variation and natural stone.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

As has been discussed in other threads, this is just a result of the natural variation in stone/masonry-work and PBs having to shell out too much money for warranty claims, or worse, getting sued by pool owners. Not that I'm defending the PBs, I am not, but it would seem that they need an easy target to blame stone and masonry degradation on and salt water is an easy target ("Duh, it corrodes metal!!"). If they sell everyone on UV/ozone/mineral systems as well as a standard trichlor puck feeder, then they can't be blamed for stone degradation because everyone on the planet uses trichlor and so it must be the pool owner's fault for not properly maintaining their water chemistry. It's basically a way to shift blame so that warranty claims based on sub-standard materials are harder to make.

If you really want to stick it to the Texas Triangle pool builders pushing this nonsense, either give your job to a smaller firm willing to do what YOU want OR, better yet, save gobs of money and get more pool for your buck by doing an owner-build. I think you'll find plenty of sub-contractors out there hungry for the work and willing to do whatever you want without red-lining their individual warranties.

 

[pooldv]

I am not sure I could find one thread on this forum that shows Stone being damaged by salt water pool. I recall one thread where some flagstone was falling apart but I don't even think it was a saltwater pool there's just a large variation and natural stone.

True, we do have some flagstone that is very flaky and layers of it are shedding. But, it is on a path nowhere near the pool. It is a good idea to look over the flagstone being installed to try to eliminate potential issues. But, even if there are issues it is because flagstone is a natural product that has myriad variation. If you want something uniform then flagstone is not the right choice. Of course if that were the case you wouldn't be looking at flagstone to begin with.

 

[gocubs418]

If you really want to stick it to the Texas Triangle pool builders pushing this nonsense, either give your job to a smaller firm willing to do what YOU want OR, better yet, save gobs of money and get more pool for your buck by doing an owner-build. I think you'll find plenty of sub-contractors out there hungry for the work and willing to do whatever you want without red-lining their individual warranties.

I wouldn't even know where to start on an owner-build using sub contractors.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I wouldn't even know where to start on an owner-build using sub contractors.

I bet if you asked around in the construction thread, you'd find people willing to help....

O/B typically save ~25% of the cost. So if the PB charges you $50k for your pool, you could possibly build it yourself for $37,500. In the end, you'll probably still spend $50k BUT you will get a heck of a lot more for your money.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

See this thread - Owner / Builder - Sacramento - With Pictures and Prices!!

- - - Updated - - -

This fellow is in your state - My cost savings by going owner builder route

 

[gocubs418]

Met with 3 PBs today... Only one was pushy about Ozone/Mineral. Probably won't go with him.

The one I am liking will do a total Pentair package which is what I want.

 

[pabeader]

Be sure to post the complete list here, before you finalize. That way you can get full advantage of all the help available around here.

 

[JayBauman]

OP seems to be wise to the game...but there's another thing to think about here: Follow the money. When I built my previous pool, the PB installed a mineral system that I didn't want. When I asked why, he said "the manufacturer gives them to me for free. They make up for this loss-leader after you buy X number of replacement cartridges." This fact alone made me suspicious of mineral technology, even long before I wisened up due to the knowledgable folks on this forum.

 

[gocubs418]

The one PB, who said they would do Salt if I really wanted, actually started using scare tactics.

"In past 5 years, I have had two people ready to do Salt and back out at the last day and call me at 7AM. She said she had a dream her pool was falling apart from the Salt"

"You will have to reseal your stone 2-3 times a year to prevent erosion"

"X Pools builds our product because we want to ensure we are putting our product in the ground so we are hesitant to work with people who go against the grain, but we will work with you"

He said he was going to use a 3HP VS Pump for both the pool and Grotto because that's what they do. Sounds like a waste of money on the Grotto side.

He did talk about this skimmer system using Venturi? Technology that reduces electricity cost by $1200 a year. Sounded neat but I doubt $1200 a year savings.

He also insists on injecting the ground with chemicals for $2k.

I'm not going to say the name of the PB but I was highly disappointed after all the good things I have heard about them.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

The one PB, who said they would do Salt if I really wanted, actually started using scare tactics.

"In past 5 years, I have had two people ready to do Salt and back out at the last day and call me at 7AM. She said she had a dream her pool was falling apart from the Salt"

"You will have to reseal your stone 2-3 times a year to prevent erosion"

"X Pools builds our product because we want to ensure we are putting our product in the ground so we are hesitant to work with people who go against the grain, but we will work with you"

He said he was going to use a 3HP VS Pump for both the pool and Grotto because that's what they do. Sounds like a waste of money on the Grotto side.

He did talk about this skimmer system using Venturi? Technology that reduces electricity cost by $1200 a year. Sounded neat but I doubt $1200 a year savings.

He also insists on injecting the ground with chemicals for $2k.

I'm not going to say the name of the PB but I was highly disappointed after all the good things I have heard about them.

A good quality stone sealant (DuPont StoneTech or DryTreat 40SK) will last a lot longer, maybe every 2-3years. If the stone is sealed by a licensed DryTreat mason (the process can be expensive), you will get a 15yr warranty against stone damage.

The salt damage scare tactics are just that, bogus scare tactics.

If the only pump in your pad is going to run the pool and everything else, then a 3HP VS pump is advisable. Normally you'll find me arguing for separate plumbing and pumps on large water features and the use of waterfall pumps on low-head water features (like waterfalls and scuppers) because you want the electrical efficiency of a waterfall pump (low head) over a pool pump (high head) AND you want independent control of the water feature so as to not rob water flow away from your pool or use lots of electricity just to run the pool.

Venturi skimmers are a new thing. I have an old school skimmer. Works just fine. Very much doubt the bogus claim of $1200 per year savings.

What the heck could he possible be injecting in the ground?? I would demand details on that and ask the local building dept if that is something they've heard of.

Honestly, the guy sounds like he's trying to pull a few fast ones on you to pump up his bottom line.

 

[txnole]

You're from Texas, my wife is a Texan and I spent 16 years in Texas, so I'm confident that you can handle what I'm about to say: Bull?

You are being hard sold on an ozone system that has - at best - superficial value to you as a pool owner. Not surprisingly it is a big commission item for pool companies in an era of diminishing margins.

Having had a flagstone deck on a saltwater pool in Texas and (now) a Leuder Limestone descent & travertine deck with a saltwater pool, it is absolutely compatible. Any natural stone near water (sprinkler system, pool, pond, etc.) will be impacted over time.

If you want stone by the saltwater pool, go for it. If we can survive on an island by the ocean with a saltwater pool, I'm sure you can as well in Texas. You *will* want to seal the stone using DuPont Stonetech for Saltwater. They suggest a five-year reseal; let's call it 3+ years. If a builder doesn't want to build your dream, move on; life's too short to compromise.

PS - Go Frogs