05 May Update - More progress, still a lot left to finish tile

[setsailsoon]

Thanks all, it's been a while since I tested. Will get my new refills out and run a new set tonight. Wow, first test results for my new, well almost new pool!

Chris

 

[setsailsoon]

OK, I couldn't wait so I just ran a quick set with my old reagents... been in ac storage all along:

pH 7.2
TA 200
CH 300

I'll unpack the new reagents and test again tonight.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

OK, I couldn't wait so I just ran a quick set with my old reagents... been in ac storage all along:

pH 7.2
TA 200
CH 300

I'll unpack the new reagents and test again tonight.

Straight out of the well, that water is already perfectly balanced (CSI ~ 0.0). The pH will rise when added to the pool and at 7.8 the CSI will go up to roughly +0.6. So you’ll simply want to keep acid on hand to keep the pH around 7.4-7.6. You will reduce TA as you add acid to maintain pH but as long as you stay in the positive range for the duration of the curing process, it should be fine.

You don’t need any bicarbonate or calcium to start with.

 

[setsailsoon]

Straight out of the well, that water is already perfectly balanced (CSI ~ 0.0). The pH will rise when added to the pool and at 7.8 the CSI will go up to roughly +0.6. So you’ll simply want to keep acid on hand to keep the pH around 7.4-7.6. You will reduce TA as you add acid to maintain pH but as long as you stay in the positive range for the duration of the curing process, it should be fine.

You don’t need any bicarbonate or calcium to start with.

Simple is better! That's great. I'll double check after dinner with the good reagents but I believe these are close... pH might have been 7.3

 

[setsailsoon]

One thing I noticed is the Pool Math app has a much cleaner feel and faster... well done somebody!

 

[setsailsoon]

The amount of chloride is pretty low, so probably not worth worrying about.

1 ppm FC from sodium hypochlorite = 1.7 ppm salt = 1 ppm chloride.

If you use the salinity in the CSI calculation, that should mostly offset the TDS/Salinity/Chloride issue.

Most fill water has several hundred ppm salt anyway.

What is the salinity of the fill water?

James, I'm out of reagents - forgot to order salt refill. I bet there is some salt just because it's Florida. Will be interesting to see.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

any additional thinking about dealing with well water start would be very helpful.

I asked specifically about your inquiry, was advised that no additional concerns because of what type of water (well water) being used.

 

[Davegnh]

Have you looked at Hydrazzo? It’s plaster that is completely diamond wheel polished (uses a special hydraulic driven diamond wheel). Supposed to produce an exceptionally smooth surface.

I have regular PebbleTek that is nearing 12 years old. I’ve grown to dislike it a lot since it becomes very rough with age (due to the exposed aggregate). If/when we remodel the pool, I’ll be looking at polished plaster solutions only with minimal exposed aggregate.

Mine was rough from day 1 I thought that was normal......

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Mine was rough from day 1 I thought that was normal......

PebbleTek has more roughness than straight plaster due to the exposed aggregate. But, when new and installed properly, the roughness is minimal. It gets worse with age as the plaster cream between the aggregate starts to wear down and when there is aggregate loss which causes greater aggregate exposure and a more rough feel. Mini-pebble type aggregate is better but nothing beats a polished plaster finish. But then again, hydrazzo can easily cost more than PebbleTek by 50% and double the price of regular white plaster … so you get what you pay for …

 

[setsailsoon]

01 April 2024 Update: More Cost Data Fill & Compact plus Piping to Pad

Folks,
I use Excel spreadsheet to track all my costs and trend up/down as costs come in so I have an accurate view of how much cash cost is expected. I have a separate tab for each major category. My execution plan for this part of the project was/is to direct hire the skilled labor and equipment. I'm paying high end for local labor because this is critical work. If done poorly will result in leaks/repairs/potentially costly future repair work. One-day rental of a mini excavator at HD is about $400. Below is the current/close to final trend for all the trenching and piping to and from the pad and the final. Only the last section remains to be completed so it's pretty close to final total cost. The biggest area of concern to me is I have 2 days to install all the materials and I think this could be a 3 day operation... we'll see.

I hope this is helpful.

Chris

 

[Katodude]

BTW. I have Florida Stucco Gem finish that is now about 7 years old. You can look at it when we do your Pi.

We happen to like white plaster, with a pebble finish, but that is just us.

 

[setsailsoon]

BTW. I have Florida Stucco Gem finish that is now about 7 years old. You can look at it when we do your Pi.

We happen to like white plaster, with a pebble finish, but that is just us.

Andy,

That's great! I'd really like to see your gem finish. Even within that line there's a huge difference in price. Range is about $12k to $20K! Kind of hard to make that choice without seeing a few of them installed. I'll PM you to confirm times that work.

Chris

 

[onBalance]

I agree with Joyfulnoise and Aquaholics that your well water with 200 ppm of alkalinity and 300 ppm of calcium hardness means no bicarb or calcium needs to be added during the filling process. That well water achieves the same effect as a bicarb startup program will prevent calcium hydroxide (plaster material) from being dissolved from the plaster surface.

If possible, please obtain a sample of pool water while it is filling and test the pH. Please let me know the result. I hope any iron, manganese, or sulfur is not present in the well water.

 

[setsailsoon]

I agree with Joyfulnoise and Aquaholics that your well water with 200 ppm of alkalinity and 300 ppm of calcium hardness means no bicarb or calcium needs to be added during the filling process. That well water achieves the same effect as a bicarb startup program will prevent calcium hydroxide (plaster material) from being dissolved from the plaster surface.

If possible, please obtain a sample of pool water while it is filling and test the pH. Please let me know the result. I hope any iron, manganese, or sulfur is not present in the well water.

Thanks much for the reply and great to see our experts in agreement. I tested the well water pH two times last two days same result 7.2. I had no detectable iron or manganese in my test strips and verified with expensive 3rd party lab. Sulfur is a different matter. Will have about .6ppm sulfide that should oxidize to sulfates and/or sulfur. Is that a problem I should be concerned about?

Chris

 

[JamesW]

I tested the well water pH two times last two days same result 7.2.

That will probably rise quickly as the CO2 outgasses.

Let some water sit out in a glass and see if you can see CO2 bubbles coming out after a while.

Retest in about 6 hours to see what the pH is after allowing the CO2 to offgas.

Sulfur is a different matter. Will have about .6ppm sulfide that should oxidize to sulfates and/or sulfur. Is that a problem I should be concerned about?

Sulfur is yellow, so possibly some yellow stains, but I do not know how much of an issue that might be.

I suspect that it will probably not be a significant problem.

 

[setsailsoon]

That will probably rise quickly as the CO2 outgasses.

Let some water sit out in a glass and see if you can see CO2 bubbles coming out after a while.

Retest in about 6 hours to see what the pH is after allowing the CO2 to offgas.

Sulfur is yellow, so possibly some yellow stains, but I do not know how much of an issue that might be.

I suspect that it will probably not be a significant problem.

That actually made a pretty big difference. Went from 7.2 to 7.8 and verified by Robin's judgement of the pH shade You may recall I have a difficult color blindness in that range. Used to maintain a good quality pH "pen" style tester but that accidentally dried up. I agree on the yellow stain issue and once I get the pool properly chlorinated don't think it's going to be an issue at all.

Chris

 

[onBalance]

I believe that the pH of 7.2 of the well water will rise immediately while filling the pool due to the dissolving of a small amount of calcium hydroxide (from the plaster). That would also immediately reduce the amount of CO2 (in the water). Water that contains 200 ppm of alkalinity and a pH of 7.2 contains 25 ppm of CO2. Once the pH rises to 8.0, there is about 4 ppm of CO2. At that point, the pH will rise higher, but more slowly mainly due to off-gassing, and acid should be added to prevent the pH from going too high.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

During the plaster curing phase, I suggest you also use a scale inhibitor such as ScaleTek or one of the other HEDP based sequestering agents. It’s cheap insurance to pay during the plaster startup to avoid scaling should the pH rise make it difficult to stay on top of acid additions. Some pools can easily spike up in pH overnight and the scale inhibitor helps to inhibit the formation of the seed crystals that allow for scale growth. You’d only need to add it at the beginning during the startup phase and then you can discontinue use once you’re past the 28 day mark. The HEDP eventually breaks down into inorganic phosphate via oxidation by chlorine which isn’t really an issue if you only use it during startup.

 

[setsailsoon]

New question about the paver and pool color matching. @kimkats and others like you that have looked at many, many pools on here that turned out great. We're looking at a few tweaks to the design. We had previously looked at Florida Stucco gem coat Capri color with a blue tile to match. Now we're looking more closely at top edge before and after the gutter with a 1x1 mosaic. All of the tile guys are comfortable they can meet the spec +/-1/16"with this. See Below photo of the black twilight color. Can't use it in vertical so back side of wall will be in 6" x 6" black tile. Can't see this from the patio or pool so I'm just looking to protect with nice matching color that's not ugly. The mosaic will be on top of the infinity edge also. Plaster we're thinking about is similar to before from but we like Azure better. Still has a lot of the same color pebbles. We're also finalizing the paver surround to be a light slate grey color. So the zero edge will be an 8" wide tile that is just under water all the time then there's a 2" gutter. Back side of gutter will be a 4" tile same black twilight mosaic.

Kim, and others what do you think? Back side of the enclosure will be a full picture window.

Chris

 

[setsailsoon]

During the plaster curing phase, I suggest you also use a scale inhibitor such as ScaleTek or one of the other HEDP based sequestering agents. It’s cheap insurance to pay during the plaster startup to avoid scaling should the pH rise make it difficult to stay on top of acid additions. Some pools can easily spike up in pH overnight and the scale inhibitor helps to inhibit the formation of the seed crystals that allow for scale growth. You’d only need to add it at the beginning during the startup phase and then you can discontinue use once you’re past the 28 day mark. The HEDP eventually breaks down into inorganic phosphate via oxidation by chlorine which isn’t really an issue if you only use it during startup.

I think I still have an unopened bottle of the Proteam product used for our AA treatment. Will that work?

Chris