Tight water chemistry specification for fibreglass pool warranty

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FGPP79

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May 25, 2023
12
Victoria, Australia
Hi all,

complete newbie here, about to decide on fibreglass pool manufacturers in Australia. I've narrowed it down to Company A or Company B. Company B seems to have had running issue with gelcoat failures, at least based on the online reviews I can find. The even bigger issue is the way the company seems to deal with warranty claims. They seem to invariably claim that chlorine or pH has been too high and this is the cause, and walk away. You need a log book showing at least monthly water testing (from a qualified professional or pool shop only) and everything needs to be within their range, or they say the warranty is void.

Option B seems to have a much better track record online, but looking at their warranty, the tight water parameters are still there, albeit slightly more reasonable than option A.

My issue is, I don't know if following the TFP method will be compatible with the inner surface warranty specs. The warranty specs are below:

- Below measurements performed and logged at least monthly. Pool shop confirmation of home testing at least every three months.
- pH: 7.0 to 7.4. If consistently out of this range (defined as greater than 3 out of 12 months months), warranty is void.
- TA: 80-120. If consistently out of this range (defined as greater than 3 out of 12 months months), warranty is void.
- Ca Hard: 100-300. If out of this range, the damage to your shell may be irreversible and will not be covered under your warranty.
- F.A.C: 1-3. If consistently above 3 (defined as greater than 3 out of 12 months months), warranty is void.
- Also this comment in the warranty: "High chlorine levels and high pH levels combined are the most detrimental to the interior surface finish.
- CYA: "Requires a range of 30-50". But don't follow with a firm "will void your warranty" line. I still think "requires" implies will affect warranty when push comes to shove.
- In terms of testing, it also states: "Test kits may either be the colour drop type the 3 way “dip stick” using DPD or Syringealdezine to determine Chlorine Bromine or digital. OTO test kits should not be used as they may provide false readings" (My emphasis).
- Temp: Temperatures of 28°C (82Farenheit ) are very warm and are a good maximum level to swim in. Temperatures above this are not advisable and may affect your warranty.

So are the above parameters compatible with the TFP philosophy? The above CYA is much lower, pH is on the lower end, and Chlorine is also on the lower end. Can I still apply the TFP principles and have enough consistent oxidation, AND stay within the above? I hope that with a lower pH and a lower CYA, chlorine of 1-3 might be enough? I've NO idea how you're supposed to SLAM / shock the pool and stay within the above.

If this isn't feasible, do I simply give up, and just do TFP properly, knowing I'm voiding the warranty? With a proven and reliable system (TFP) and a longstanding and highly regarded fibreglass pool manufacturer, maybe the risk of gelcoat issues will be very small.

Looking around, I don't think there's many manufacturers that don't have tight goalposts like these, so maybe I don't have any other option? What do other Aussies with fibreglass pools do who follow the TFP system?

Any thoughts or comments appreciated. Thanks in advance.

EDIT: Forgot to add, this will be a salt chlorinator system (or a combination of NaCl, KCl, and MgCl). No Copper / Silver.
 
FGPP79 said:
So are the above parameters compatible with the TFP philosophy?
Click to expand...
It's not a matter of whether or not they are compatible. The numbers (ranges) you are referencing above are generic. They are the same "basic" parameters used for decades without concern for pool type, method of chlorination and more. Those levels make an assumption you will use chlorine tablets on a daily basis which is a bad thing for your CYA level. They are just basic numbers to give new pool owners something to go by and to try and hold people accountable their pool.

The TFP recommended levels take into account every parameter you can think of and are perfectly safe for the pool and swimmers while ensuring the water is clear and sanitary. Please be sure to bookmark our Pool Care Basics page which has a consolidated list of important articles to help. If you have any questions let us know.

I will also tab @AUSpool and @aussieta who might like to welcome another form the local area and give you some specific tips to help you along.

By the way ..... welcome to TFP! :wav:
 
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Hey 79 and Welcome !!!!

The deck is stacked in the manufacturers favor. Then they have a team a lawyers to invent new reasons out of the warranty if the common causes don't apply. If they can't blame you, they'll blame the builder whom *they* certified to install their product.

You will almost certainly be the middle man in any disputes with both the builder and manufacturer trying to blame you, or make it your responsibility to sue the other party.

Most warrantees aren't worth the paper that they are printed on. For every one success story, there's many claims that were denied. If a problem becomes common, a new paragraph is added to the warranty going forward. That's how they end up being pages long IMO.

The only difference between the two warranties is that one builder is being more upfront about it.

On the plus side, while TFP can't cure any gel coat manufacturing issues, it will give you your best chance at not creating any of your own issues. You will operate in safe ranges, tweaked for your climate with the best supplies / test options available to you locally.
 
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Texas Splash said:
It's not a matter of whether or not they are compatible. The numbers (ranges) you are referencing above are generic. They are the same "basic" parameters used for decades without concern for pool type, method of chlorination and more. Those levels make an assumption you will use chlorine tablets on a daily basis which is a bad thing for your CYA level. They are just basic numbers to give new pool owners something to go by and to try and hold people accountable their pool.

The TFP recommended levels take into account every parameter you can think of and are perfectly safe for the pool and swimmers while ensuring the water is clear and sanitary. Please be sure to bookmark our Pool Care Basics page which has a consolidated list of important articles to help. If you have any questions let us know.

I will also tab @AUSpool and @aussieta who might like to welcome another form the local area and give you some specific tips to help you along.

By the way ..... welcome to TFP! :wav:
Click to expand...
I will add @RookiePick to the call
 
Just been/going through this thought process myself.

Current conclusion - if the pool goes bad the manufacturer will either step up or weasel out, irrespective of how you have maintained the pool.

What if you threw damaging amounts of bleach in the pool as a 1 off and had a perfect test record under your belt? What if you put other chemicals into the pool that damaged the gel-coat but otherwise maintained "perfect" water chemistry? If they want to avoid looking at your problem in good faith, nothing you did/didn't do will matter.

Just pick a reputable, long established manufacturer with the pool size and shape that you like. I figure the ones that have gone the distance must get it right more often than they get it wrong over the journey.

All in my humble opinion, YMMV etc etc.
 
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Texas Splash said:
It's not a matter of whether or not they are compatible. The numbers (ranges) you are referencing above are generic. They are the same "basic" parameters used for decades without concern for pool type, method of chlorination and more. Those levels make an assumption you will use chlorine tablets on a daily basis which is a bad thing for your CYA level. They are just basic numbers to give new pool owners something to go by and to try and hold people accountable their pool.

The TFP recommended levels take into account every parameter you can think of and are perfectly safe for the pool and swimmers while ensuring the water is clear and sanitary. Please be sure to bookmark our Pool Care Basics page which has a consolidated list of important articles to help. If you have any questions let us know.

I will also tab @AUSpool and @aussieta who might like to welcome another form the local area and give you some specific tips to help you along.

By the way ..... welcome to TFP! :wav:
Click to expand...
thanks for the welcome and the comment Texas Splash. The thing is, in Australia, almost all pools uses a chlorinator. The default option with this manufacturer is a salt chlorinator, so I suspect their numbers must Be based on this. No idea why they have chosen what they have though. Thanks for tagging in some locals too, who as you say might shed some local light on the issue.
 
Newdude said:
Hey 79 and Welcome !!!!

The deck is stacked in the manufacturers favor. Then they have a team a lawyers to invent new reasons out of the warranty if the common causes don't apply. If they can't blame you, they'll blame the builder whom *they* certified to install their product.

You will almost certainly be the middle man in any disputes with both the builder and manufacturer trying to blame you, or make it your responsibility to sue the other party.

Most warrantees aren't worth the paper that they are printed on. For every one success story, there's many claims that were denied. If a problem becomes common, a new paragraph is added to the warranty going forward. That's how they end up being pages long IMO.

The only difference between the two warranties is that one builder is being more upfront about it.

On the plus side, while TFP can't cure any gel coat manufacturing issues, it will give you your best chance at not creating any of your own issues. You will operate in safe ranges, tweaked for your climate with the best supplies / test options available to you locally.
Click to expand...
Your sentiment seems to gel (pun not intended) with my thinking. Maybe the Herculean and foolhardy effort to stay within their numbers won’t really change the odds of them standing by their warranty. Maybe giving up on the warranty worth less than the paper it’s on, and sticking to the TFP system is the safer option.

I wonder if fibreglass pools manufactured in the US are fundamentally different I. Their requirements to Australian pools? I’d guess not, it’s just a guess.
 
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FGPP79 said:
thanks for the welcome and the comment Texas Splash. The thing is, in Australia, almost all pools uses a chlorinator. The default option with this manufacturer is a salt chlorinator, so I suspect their numbers must Be based on this. No idea why they have chosen what they have though. Thanks for tagging in some locals too, who as you say might shed some local light on the issue.
Click to expand...
Using a swcg is what most of us here use so you won't get arguments about that 😂😂
 
RookiePick said:
Just been/going through this thought process myself.

Current conclusion - if the pool goes bad the manufacturer will either step up or weasel out, irrespective of how you have maintained the pool.

What if you threw damaging amounts of bleach in the pool as a 1 off and had a perfect test record under your belt? What if you put other chemicals into the pool that damaged the gel-coat but otherwise maintained "perfect" water chemistry? If they want to avoid looking at your problem in good faith, nothing you did/didn't do will matter.

Just pick a reputable, long established manufacturer with the pool size and shape that you like. I figure the ones that have gone the distance must get it right more often than they get it wrong over the journey.

All in my humble opinion, YMMV etc etc.
Click to expand...
Yep, agreed. I’ve had similar thoughts. Are the test results the before or after adjustment numbers? And like you say, how do you prove that the levels weren’t completely out of whack between tests. i’m leaning towards a reputable company and then getting the fundamental pool chemistry right and consistent.

Out of interest, are you aiming in any way to conform to your warranty, or have you given up on that and instead just doing the TFP system?
 
FGPP79 said:
And like you say, how do you prove that the levels weren’t completely out of whack between tests
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Or how do you prove you used them chemicals they told you to adjust the pool after the test. Even if you bought them, that doesn't prove they went in the pool. So then you need a confirmation test everytime as well. It's a never ending cycle of hoops to jump through.

When life gets in the way on year 2 and you miss a couple of tests, there goes all that effort for nothing.

Best wishes whichever way you decide. We'll help. :)
 

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The gel coat is the weakest point in any fiberglass pool - nothing you do will stop it from eventually chalking and turning white. The resin that makes up the gel coat simply undergoes hydrolysis and breaks down slowly. This is the main complaint from almost all FG owners - after a few months or years (depending on how hard you are on your pool), chalkiness appears and then the inevitable search for a cause starts. Usually people will blame calcium but that’s not always the case. Then it’s the gel coat. It’s not a failure per se, just natural deterioration.

It’s simply something you have to accept up front and then plan accordingly. I would stay away from deeply colored fiberglass and go with white as you won’t notice it as much. If you go with blue you’re going to see it sooner. Chemical levels rarely have anything to do with it unless you are absolutely horrible at caring for your pool.
 
Also, stay away from the expensive salt mix. If you can find straight sodium chloride (NaCl), then use that. There’s no need and no benefit to using magnesium or potassium chloride.
 
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JoyfulNoise said:
The gel coat is the weakest point in any fiberglass pool - nothing you do will stop it from eventually chalking and turning white. The resin that makes up the gel coat simply undergoes hydrolysis and breaks down slowly. This is the main complaint from almost all FG owners - after a few months or years (depending on how hard you are on your pool), chalkiness appears and then the inevitable search for a cause starts. Usually people will blame calcium but that’s not always the case. Then it’s the gel coat. It’s not a failure per se, just natural deterioration.

It’s simply something you have to accept up front and then plan accordingly. I would stay away from deeply colored fiberglass and go with white as you won’t notice it as much. If you go with blue you’re going to see it sooner. Chemical levels rarely have anything to do with it unless you are absolutely horrible at caring for your pool.
Click to expand...
Thanks for advice JoyfulNoise. I'll definitely keep that in mind. Such is life, and nothing is perfect.
 
Geday FGPP79 and welcome to TFP and the forums.

Short answer hear, I’m out of time and must get back to work but I’ll get back to you.

Ask them if they shells/pools are manufactured to the Australian Standard AS 3633 - 1989. It’s a bit old but is still current. Are they aware that FC and CyA react when together in a pool, a FC of 1-3ppm is a bit useless without knowing the CyA level. Temperature - do they have strict guidelines for temperature?
 
FGPP79 said:
Your sentiment seems to gel (pun not intended) with my thinking. Maybe the Herculean and foolhardy effort to stay within their numbers won’t really change the odds of them standing by their warranty. Maybe giving up on the warranty worth less than the paper it’s on, and sticking to the TFP system is the safer option.

I wonder if fibreglass pools manufactured in the US are fundamentally different I. Their requirements to Australian pools? I’d guess not, it’s just a guess.
Click to expand...

If you follow the chemistry they would be the same. Any differences would more likely be with things like manufacturing process with economies of scale etc.
 
RookiePick said:
I'm aiming to keep a sanitary and safe pool for my family and friends to swim in. I feel that Australian consumer protection law would take a dim view of a product that failed under these conditions of use.
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I completely agree that consumer law would provide more protection than what is offered in the finicky warranties. Trouble is, I fall into the majority of people that just wouldn’t have the time, energy and resources to test it out. I’d imagine it would be a long drawn out legal process. I think that is why they get away with what they do.
 
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The AU standard I mentioned before is the standard for “Private swimming pools - water quality.” It states that when stabilizer in the range of 30-50ppm is used FC must be maintained at a MINIMUM of 3ppm, no upper limit is given.

I didn’t get to the temp part before but limiting the temp to 28degC is simply unattainable. I run at 30-31C all summer. Is it not the same fiberglass used in hot tubs that run at ~40C all the time?

Running with a low pH and high TA will require a truck load of acid and lots of bicarb.

You don’t need a OTO kit, it often counts CC’s with the FC result. Your best with a FAS/DPD from clear choice labs.

Caution with the mag salt. It is 10X the price and has more impurities then the regular. Iron is one of the common impurities that will cause staining on your nice new surface. High magnesium will interfere with the CH drop test. Non of the stores know what an ideal mag level is and it is not mentioned in the AS3633 standard. I’ve read a few stories now of pools turning green when mag salts are added. Apparently that’s normal and I’m not surprised as the pic below is the drying ponds at the southern end of the Dead Sea.

798282C2-1D23-44C9-A86C-4722551048D7.jpeg
 
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AUSpool said:
The AU standard I mentioned before is the standard for “Private swimming pools - water quality.” It states that when stabilizer in the range of 30-50ppm is used FC must be maintained at a MINIMUM of 3ppm, no upper limit is given.

I didn’t get to the temp part before but limiting the temp to 28degC is simply unattainable. I run at 30-31C all summer. Is it not the same fiberglass used in hot tubs that run at ~40C all the time?

Running with a low pH and high TA will require a truck load of acid and lots of bicarb.

You don’t need a OTO kit, it often counts CC’s with the FC result. Your best with a FAS/DPD from clear choice labs.

Caution with the mag salt. It is 10X the price and has more impurities then the regular. Iron is one of the common impurities that will cause staining on your nice new surface. High magnesium will interfere with the CH drop test. Non of the stores know what an ideal mag level is and it is not mentioned in the AS3633 standard. I’ve read a few stories now of pools turning green when mag salts are added. Apparently that’s normal and I’m not surprised as the pic below is the drying ponds at the southern end of the Dead Sea.

View attachment 496335
Click to expand...
Thanks Auspool,

specifically for the AS quotes. That is the missing piece of the information puzzle for me. it just confirms how ridiculous the warranty ranges are, given the STABIKISE at 30-50 and FC >3. Makes a mockery of the warranty figures, doesn’t it.

I wish 31 degrees was inevitable. Southern Victoria is not quite Brisbane! one can only hope though. It’ll be great problem to have.

yeah, I’m starting to lean back towards NaCl. i didn’t overly mind a mild cost increase, especially if it meant less potential corrosion from NaCl, but if it just adds a new set of potential issues and complications, especially staining, I might as well keep it simple and go for a NaCl chlorinator.
 

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