New Hayward VSP pump sounds like its getting air into it (video)

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The service tech came out yesterday and immediately identified the issue before even turning on the system. He pulled out the filter cartridge then ran the pump without it to show me a quick way to identify the issue. Everything ran perfectly and quietly without the filter in place. Even though the filter looked clean, he spread open the pleats and showed me how dirty it was inside and how much plaster shavings were wedged in there. I've hosed it down many times but never thought to spread apart the pleats.

We swapped out filters with a new one I had in the garage and he advised me how to clean the old one so it will be as good as new. He also made a note for the weekly service guys to be sure to clean the filters a lot more thoroughly than they have been.

What a huge difference there is now. My spillover is a lot more powerful, the spa jets are stronger, and I can see the return jets running even when the pump is at 50%.
 
golovko said:
He pulled out the filter cartridge then ran the pump without it to show me a quick way to identify the issue. Everything ran perfectly and quiet without the filter.
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Glad to hear it! That is why I mentioned trying this last week. ;)
bradgray said:
When we see this behavior we check for blockage on the pressure side. Starting with your filter.

Take the cartridges out entirely, close your filter body and try and run it again. Does the bouncing continue?
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:cheers:
 
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bradgray said:
Glad to hear it! That is why I mentioned trying this last week. ;)


:cheers:
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The part I couldn't figure out was the why. What I tried last week on your recommendation instead of taking out the filter itself was opening the waste valve and bypassing the filter which fixed the issue. But when I looked at the filter I couldn't see anything wrong because it looked clean. The lid was clamped down tight and the plug had no leaks. It wasn't until he spread the pleats apart on the filter to show me how much stuff was jammed up in there. I hose them down regularly and so do the weekly maintenance guys but I never thought to check it that closely.

It was the original filter since construction was completed though so it had a lot of bits of plaster dust wedged in there.
 
golovko said:
The part I couldn't figure out was the why. What I tried last week on your recommendation instead of taking out the filter itself was opening the waste valve and bypassing the filter which fixed the issue. But when I looked at the filter I couldn't see anything wrong because it looked clean. The lid was clamped down tight and the plug had no leaks. It wasn't until he spread the pleats apart on the filter to show me how much stuff was jammed up in there. I hose them down regularly and so do the weekly maintenance guys but I never thought to check it that closely.

It was the original filter since construction was completed though so it had a lot of bits of plaster dust wedged in there.
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Just ribbing you.

The challenge with single filter systems like yours is that the sqft of filter medium is already fairly reduced, so it just doesn't take much to crash the filter. The potential for excessive pressure can also flatten the inside of the pleats and reduce it even further.

Keep in mind that regularly spraying the filter will also wear it out. Benefits outweigh the costs in the case for sure! We replace single cartridge systems about 3x as often as the quads.
 
bradgray said:
Just ribbing you.

The challenge with single filter systems like yours is that the sqft of filter medium is already fairly reduced, so it just doesn't take much to crash the filter. The potential for excessive pressure can also flatten the inside of the pleats and reduce it even further.

Keep in mind that regularly spraying the filter will also wear it out. Benefits outweigh the costs in the case for sure! We replace single cartridge systems about 3x as often as the quads.
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How often should I expect to replace the cartridge with a new one? The tech suggested I get a trashcan tall enough to fill with water and mix in a "filter renew" solution then let the filter soak for 24 hours after hosing it down. And to just alternate between the two filters when one needs a deep cleaning.
 
golovko said:
How often should I expect to replace the cartridge with a new one? The tech suggested I get a trashcan tall enough to fill with water and mix in a "filter renew" solution then let the filter soak for 24 hours after hosing it down. And to just alternate between the two filters when one needs a deep cleaning.
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We use TSP on occasion when we can't get a hold of a new set, but as a service team, our labor to resurrect an overly worn (i.e. needs to soak) filter exceeds that of a new one. Especially where yours is a single element which usually run $100-ish.

I'm assuming yours is a 200sqft filter? And your pools is 20k gal? In my area, that's dead in 3 weeks even with 3x cleaning each week. In other words, not even a functional filter/gal ratio. But sand is BRUTAL on filters.

You want to oversize the filter to the most you can fit or afford. My pool is smaller than yours and mine is a CCP520 (e.g. sqft).

Since you have what you have, my advice is clean then often, but keep a close eye to your pressure. Pick a RPM to consistently benchmark it and watch it change every time you put it back in.

You won't get peak performance out of a filter for more than a year (use and service variables being a huge determinant +/-). Even best case, repeated rinsing, detergents and general chlorination will weaken the structures and you'll end up with a floppy filter that may rupture spontaneously if you push it too long.

TLDR I would not push them past 12 months total use. With how cheap it is, it's simply not worth the efficiency loss or trouble.
 
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I don’t agree that the filter cartridge was the problem.

For one thing, you said that the problem cleared when you opened the waste line and the problem did not continue when the waste line was closed.

So, if you didn’t touch the filter cartridge, why didn’t the problem continue?

A dirty cartridge does not make the pump surge like it was doing.

A dirty cartridge just creates high pressure.

In my opinion, it was a suction problem that cleared when the waste line was opened and the flow increased.

I suspect that there is likely something in the suction lines that is now positioned to allow flow and if it shifts, it can cause another clog.
 
bradgray said:
I've had at least 3 hayward systems behave exactly like this with confirmed pressure side issues.
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Do you have video of a surging pressure like this from a return side obstruction?

Unless there is a 100% obstruction, I do not think that the pump will surge like the OPs pump was doing.

In my opinion, a dirty filter will not cause surging.

The pressure will be high and steady.
 
The issue did eventually return after I had closed the waste line. It wasn't right away but at some point in the next day it returned. The tech that came out removed the filter and let it run without the filter in place and the issue went away. As soon as we put in a new filter it was fine and still is running really smooth. It was pretty dirty at the base of the pleats when he spread them apart so I could see it. Although the area visible from the outside was clear and white, the inside was blackened and had lots of strands of plaster wedged in there and other debris.

Even the overall pressure dropped significantly and was stable at higher pump speeds (according to the pressure gauge on the cartridge filter)
 
Unless the motor is reacting to the pressure by measuring the power, I don't think that a dirty filter is going to cause the surging.

The Intelliflo VSF pump might if the system is set to Flow mode, but I don't think that the Hayward pumps react like that except maybe the EcoStar SVRS and that would just shut off with a variable pressure.

In my opinion, the surging is probably not due to a dirty filter.

I suspect maybe a suction issue or maybe a power/voltage issue.

If the pump is wired for 115 volts power input, then the pump does react to the power usage and it decreases the RPM to maintain the amps below the limit.

Is the power supply 115 volts or 230 volts?

Maybe check the voltage and amperage to see if they are in spec.
 
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golovko said:
The issue did eventually return after I had closed the waste line. It wasn't right away but at some point in the next day it returned.
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If the cartridge was the problem and you did not touch the cartridge, then why did the problem go away even for a little while?

The cartridge was exactly the same, so if it was the problem, the problem would have continued.

The pressure is jumping around, how is a dirty cartridge going to make the pressure jump?

The cartridge has a certain amount of resistance and the pump will reach an equilibrium and the pressure will be high but steady with a clogged cartridge.

In my opinion, there are several possible causes.

1) A suction obstruction due to an irregular shaped objet that can change orientation and cause a fluctuating flow.

I would open the check valves and check for an obstruction like a rock, pine cone, chunk of plaster or other obstruction.

I would remove the flappers as they are unnecessary.

Make sure not to cross-thread the screws when reinstalling them.

2) Possibly something in the impeller.

3) Maybe a power issue with fluctuating voltage.

4) If wired for 115 volts, maybe the motor is limiting the amperage.

5) Maybe a motor defect.
 
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JamesW said:
Do you have video of a surging pressure like this from a return side obstruction?

Unless there is a 100% obstruction, I do not think that the pump will surge like the OPs pump was doing.

In my opinion, a dirty filter will not cause surging.

The pressure will be high and steady.
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Yes I have a video of the 2nd one we corrected. Don't know of any great way to share it short of the hassle of loading it to YouTube. Happy to share it if you know an easier way.

I don't disagree that strictly speaking, a "dirty" filter shouldn't cause the bouncing. However, a filter that is sufficiently dysfunctional has caused this on two Tristar pumps on my crews routes. We've also had a reversed CV cause this on a new system. In all cases, correction of the dammed flow fixed the issue. No other variables changed, 100% certain on this. Issue also never returned on any of them.

My hypothesis for why its intermittent, is that its a similar dynamic to a water hammer, where the kickback feeds itself into a rhythmic loop and gains momentum. But it requires a certain trigger to begin, such as a sudden "slam" of the wall of water.

Never seen this with Jandy or Pentair pumps - those all do as you and I would expect, where they resign themselves to tumbling the same water over and over in the volute. Only Hayward does the techno dance. Couldn't tell you why.
 
bradgray said:
We've also had a reversed CV cause this on a new system.
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The CV makes some sense because that can bounce and a 100% blockage can cause strange behabvior.
bradgray said:
In all cases, correction of the dammed flow fixed the issue.
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:p

Maybe the Hayward Variable Speed pumps are doing some sort of power management reacting to changes in the power?

In any case, maybe it was the dirty filter, but the problem cleared for a while without touching the filter.

I would consider this specific case undetermined.
 
So far everything is still running smoothly with the new filter in place. Even the spillover when running the spa in spillover is able to create a much bigger waterfall effect. On the old filter at 100% speed, it was just barely able to push the water over the edge which would run back under the travertine spillway and trickle down to the pool. Now it's pushing the water, at a lower speed, out away from the spillway creating a nice, strong waterfall.

I will continue to keep an eye on it though. I appreciate all the info and help with this issue! As a result from your recommendations, I am also running the pump at a much lower speed during the day and saving some money on energy costs.
 
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