Need Input!

sprewitt38 · Oct 16, 2020

Bought a home that has an older pool. Large step around the pool. The pump works great and the entire pool circulates to were you see the ripples in the shallow end. However when I hook any vacuum up to it through the skimmer I have zero suction at the end of the line for the vacuum. There is no way of decreasing the pressure in the main drain. Placed a rubber mat over the main drain and when tested at the skimmer per pool guy I had max suction. When you remove the mat I have next to nothing. Bought a variable speed pump (alot bigger) but have not hooked it up yet. Was told I needed to run another return to increase the suction so I can vacuum it. There is a valve on the return but its on the main line. Afraid if I turn it it will completely turn off the return?? I have no problem running an external return into a water fall or something to allow the bigger pump to push more back in.
Do I need to make sure I am a certain distance?
Can I just tap into the current return? Pipe size?
(Pool was remarcited in 2017. It was suggested to have a leak specialist come out to snake the line to figure out if they tied the main drain and skimmer together. I have not been able to find the main drain line underground. Just the one coming from the skimmer. Did they combine these 40 years ago? Has one jet directly next to skimmer

I can post pictures. Any input would be fantastic!

Dirk · Oct 16, 2020

Hi, and welcome to TFP. Can you fill in your signature with as much as you know about your pool and equipment (similar to mine), and post pictures of your pool and equipment pad? Also take a picture of your skimmer, from above, with the cover off and basket out.

Did you mean "remodeled in 2017?"

We may need to take this step by step, because I'm not sure what you're describing, or asking... Don't turn any valves just yet. We'll first try to get a handle on how your plumbing works.

sprewitt38 · Oct 17, 2020

Pictures

sprewitt38 · Oct 17, 2020

Does not get full suction (about 1 inch shy) UNLESS I back flush the filter. Was told this should not have to be done often but I have to back flush if I want any hopes of manually vacuuming pool. Still takes hours! Hayward and MX8 won't move in the pool.

sprewitt38 · Oct 17, 2020

Dirk said:
Hi, and welcome to TFP. Can you fill in your signature with as much as you know about your pool and equipment (similar to mine), and post pictures of your pool and equipment pad? Also take a picture of your skimmer, from above, with the cover off and basket out.

Did you mean "remodeled in 2017?"

We may need to take this step by step, because I'm not sure what you're describing, or asking... Don't turn any valves just yet. We'll first try to get a handle on how your plumbing works.

Thank you for replying!! Marcite was re-done along w tile. Forgot all about the new filter. Was told last year that was the issue. New filter and still not getting complete prime. Replaced gasket around pump a few weeks ago. Helped slightly but still not there. Not losing any water in the pool. Ive had it checked w dye for surface leaks. Pool store suggests I have "leak detector" company come out to see if they can put the camera down to look for anything. They want over 500$ to do that.

We have gotten very good at scooping any dirt out! (Its low on chlorine, please excuse the mess, house remodeling and stucco company got that stuff everywhere!)

Dirk · Oct 17, 2020

OK, thanks for the pics and additional details. It appears your main drain is not plumbed to the skimmer, so that leaves a bit of a mystery as to where it does connect. It's non-standard, that's for sure.

The white return you show in pic #5, is that directly below the skimmer? Do you feel water coming out of it? And the other returns, too?

How many returns do you have? Do they have eyeball adjusters on them?

I might have a blockage somewhere, or just a really bad plumbing job. If you can't afford the "camera man" to sort this out, you could just seal, or partially seal, off the main drain to improve suction through your skimmer. That might actually improve not only your vacuuming, but your over all circulation and skimming as well. But that doesn't explain why your pump is not priming. That, and the overall poor pump performance suggests a suction-side leak, which is not always revealed by water loss. So we're back to leak detection and $. Not sure you're going to find a way around that.

Don't turn that blue ball valve. Your instinct is correct. That'll just deadhead your pump.

@JamesW, @jimmythegreek, what do you think?

In the meanwhile, you can test for above ground suction leaks yourself using this technique:

IMPORTANT! Sidebar: How many drain covers are there in the pool? When you said you covered it with a mat, was there just one drain? Did it have a cover? If only one, that is a pretty dangerous hazard in a pool. If it is missing its cover, then that is a VERY dangerous hazard. If either is true, you need to be very careful around that thing. And if the cover is missing, you really shouldn't allow any swimmers in the water until that is fixed.

sprewitt38 · Oct 17, 2020

How can you tell the main drain is not plumbed to the skimmer? If there is just the one line coming from the pool and the one line going to the pool where is it getting the suction from. (I'm sorry if I dont make sense

)
There is a cover on the main drain. I used the rubber mat that is usually under the dog dishes to cover the drain to see if we had closed it off would we have more suction. Which we do I think. I dont understand how there can be a blockage somewhere if everything seems to flow fine kinda. The picture of the jet next to the skimmer is the only return in the pool. Yes they put it right next to the skimmer. One of the picture was an attempt to capture the ripples in the water at the shallow end of the pool, opposite end.
We've done the dye test and the hose test. Neither showed a leak.
I've dug from the pump to the concrete next to the skimmer to see if the main drain was tied in there and it was not. I was told it was possibly ran underneath and tied into the bottom of the skimmer.
On another note, why would there be a valve in the middle of the return line? It was there with the old filter and honestly when we replaced the filter we replaced that section because we had to go higher for the new filter, but we just duplicated what was already there (the valve).

Also water shoots out of that return extremely powerful. You're not able to hold your hand in front of it.

Dirk · Oct 17, 2020

Typically when the main drain is plumbed to the skimmer you'd see two holes in the bottom of the skimmer: one goes to the pump, the other goes to the main drain. Or you'd see a diverter mechanism that balances the flow through skimmer and drain. So if there's only one hole, and no diverter, then the main drain ties in somewhere else. (That's why I asked for a pic inside the skimmer. If it had been plumbed there, this would have been an easy fix by adjusting the diverter.)

A single drain in a swimming pool is an entrapment hazard. People have died by drowning, getting sucked to the drain when there was enough pump force. Two drains in tandem, a few feet apart, is the solution they now use for that. If you have a flat drain cover, that is not great. You can make a single drain a bit safer by replacing a flat drain cover with an approved anti-entrapment drain cover. Or by permanently sealing it up. Anti-entrapment drain covers come in all sorts of shapes and colors, and are pretty easy to install (provided you can get down there to work safely with water in the pool).

You're right, there may not be a blockage. It might be that because the main drain is tied directly to the same pipe from the skimmer, that there is no way to balance between the two, and you're just getting too much suction through the drain and not enough through the skimmer. You could correct that by either blocking the main drain, or partially blocking it, to better balance the flow through each. I'm not quite sure of the best way to do that, but it could be done at the same time you replaced the drain cover.

The blue-handled valve was there maybe to facilitate backwashing the old filter? I'm not sure. If the new filter has a multi-valve that can be turned for regular circulation and backwashing, then the blue valve serves no purpose.

Ball valves are notoriously unreliable. They break, leak, freeze up, etc. If it ever leaks, just replace it with a straight run of PVC.

The two Jims might be in their PJs by now. Maybe they'll check in tomorrow.

Dirk · Oct 17, 2020

Back to the drain, if your pool was just resurfaced, the contractor should have installed an anti-entrapment cover, so maybe you already have one.

Dirk · Oct 17, 2020

Still pondering... What is sticking out of the ground near your pad? A cut off pipe? Is it copper? That could be the remnants of your old plumbing. The newer PVC is tied into that somewhere. There could be a suction leak at that connection.

If a leak detection company is not in your future, and you can't resolve the air in the pump any other way, I'd say you're going to have to keep digging. That PVC looks to be newer than the pool, which means somebody did just that before you bought the house. Maybe by following the PVC you'll eventually find where drain and skimmer connect. Sorry, that's all I got for you...

sprewitt38 · Oct 17, 2020

Thank you! Would the pump get enough water if I closed off the main drain? I believe I have that cover on it. Re plastered the pool in 2017. Cover is new.
Even when I cover the main drain with the silicon dog matt lol I still do not have the suction to run a vacuum. It helped a little but not enough. No clue where that main is pumbed in at. Like I said I traced it from the pump to the skimmer. One line. Thats why I thought maybe it was run under the entire pool and up to the bottom of the skimmer.

Am I able to install the larger pump (variable speed), put in another return and adjust the pump to allow more suction to be able to vacuum it.

I've never had so much trouble trying to clean something!!

sprewitt38 · Oct 17, 2020

Dirk said:
Still pondering... What is sticking out of the ground near your pad? A cut off pipe? Is it copper? That could be the remnants of your old plumbing. The newer PVC is tied into that somewhere. There could be a suction leak at that connection.

If a leak detection company is not in your future, and you can't resolve the air in the pump any other way, I'd say you're going to have to keep digging. That PVC looks to be newer than the pool, which means somebody did just that before you bought the house. Maybe by following the PVC you'll eventually find where drain and skimmer connect. Sorry, that's all I got for you...

I too thought that black line was it. Dug it, it goes down rather far and goes toward the home? Cut off around the foundation of the house..
I dont mind having the leak detection guys come out. But their 500 fee is to look for a leak. Seems high when I dont understand how I could have the leak but have extremely high circulation in the pool and no water loss or air bubbles besides the lack of full prime. Why would someone have full prime after the filter is backflushed? I apologize, so many questions

Dirk · Oct 17, 2020

What size is that hole in the skimmer? I want our builder experts (the Jims) to weigh in on dialing down the flow through the drain before you try that. On the larger pump, too. You probably shouldn't mess with either until you can verify you don't have a suction leak.

I misunderstood: when you said you got "max suction" after covering the drain, I thought you meant enough suction. Really does sound like a suction-side leak to me.

The drain line might connect just below the skimmer, but unfortunately it doesn't look like it's connected to the skimmer.

You do have air bubbles: in the pump. That's a symptom of a suction leak.

A suction leak could be in play, but only when the pump is drawing water. That would explain why you're not losing water in the pool: the leak is not allowing water to get out (or very little), only air to get in.

Not sure about your backflushing question. A dirty filter reduces flow, backflushing improves flow. More flow = better priming. Leaks can act differently with respect to flow rate. Something along those lines, I suspect.

sprewitt38 · Oct 17, 2020

Dirk said:
What size is that hole in the skimmer? I want our builder experts (the Jims) to weigh in on dialing down the flow through the drain before you try that. On the larger pump, too. You probably shouldn't mess with either until you can verify you don't have a suction leak.

I misunderstood: when you said you got "max suction" after covering the drain, I thought you meant enough suction. Really does sound like a suction-side leak to me.

The drain line might connect just below the skimmer, but unfortunately it doesn't look like it's connected to the skimmer.

You do have air bubbles: in the pump. That's a symptom of a suction leak.

A suction leak could be in play, but only when the pump is drawing water. That would explain why you're not losing water in the pool: the leak is not allowing water to get out (or very little), only air to get in.

Not sure about your backflushing question. A dirty filter reduces flow, backflushing improves flow. More flow = better priming. Leaks can act differently with respect to flow rate. Something along those lines, I suspect.

I really appreciate all your help!! I can measure the hole in the skimmer in the morning, but its the size of the vacuum hose? Suction side leak? I hope I did not confuse you. There is no side line for the vacuum. Place the line into the skimmer. May be silly but can these lines be snaked like a house drain? Is that something thats not recommended for pools?

Dirk · Oct 17, 2020

More pondering... your pool guy might have had it right. You may have adequate suction ports (skimmer and drain), but because you only have the one return, you're just not getting enough flow. The fact that you see ripples does not necessarily mean great circulation. It just means all the water returning to the pool is in just that one spot, creating the ripples. Like putting your thumb over the end of a hose: you get the spray to go farther, but you're actually getting less water out of the hose.

sprewitt38 · Oct 17, 2020

Dirk said:
More pondering... your pool guy might have had it right. You may have adequate suction ports (skimmer and drain), but because you only have the one return, you're just not getting enough flow. The fact that you see ripples does not necessarily mean great circulation. It just means all the water returning to the pool is in just that one spot, creating the ripples. Like putting your thumb over the end of a hose: you get the spray to go farther, but you're actually getting less water out of the hose.

I never thought of it that way. I figured if the entire pool is going around then it was more than enough circulation. I think I need the return anyways to use this pump. But I also do not want to blow plumbing out. Honestly not sure if I can use such a large pump. Think its a 3.5hp. Far stretch from my 3/4. Pool supply said to just run it low? Of course I have no clue but before I leant any of that I have to see if I can't figure this mystery pool out

Dirk · Oct 17, 2020

By suction-side leak, I didn't mean a leak in a dedicated pipe for vacuuming. "Suction-side" just means the plumbing between the pool and the "in" side of the pump (the suction side). "Pressure-side", or "return-side" refers to the plumbing between the pool and the "out" side of the pump. Air in the pump would not occur with a pressure-side leak or blockage. And air in the pump wouldn't occur with a suction-side blockage. Air in the pump generally means a suction-side leak.

The lines can be snaked, but unlike snaking house plumbing, which can be fixed relatively easily if the snaking breaks something, if snaking pool plumbing breaks a pipe, especially way under the pool, then you've got a potential nightmare of a fix. If you could find a plumber or other pool pro to attempt that (some won't for this very reason), then you have to be sure they are fully insured for an expensive repair should they further damage the underground plumbing. Frankly, if it were me, and it was clear you've got new PVC and very old plumbing fused together somehow, somewhere, I wouldn't touch that job. (Sorry, don't mean to be negative, just preparing you for some possible responses to your search for the right guy for the job.)

sprewitt38 · Oct 17, 2020

Dirk said:
By suction-side leak, I didn't mean a leak in a dedicating pipe for vacuuming. "Suction-side" just means the plumbing between the pool and the "in" side of the pump (the suction side). "Pressure-side", or "return-side" refers to the plumbing between the pool and the "out" side of the pump. Air in the pump would not occur with a pressure-side leak or blockage. And air in the pump wouldn't occur with a suction-side blockage. Air in the pump generally means a suction-side leak.

The lines can be snaked, but unlike snaking house plumbing, which can be fixed relatively easily if the snaking breaks something, if snaking pool plumbing breaks a pipe, especially way under the pool, then you've got a potential nightmare of a fix. If you could find a plumber or other pool pro to attempt that (some won't for this very reason), then you have to be sure they are fully insured for an expensive repair should they further damage the underground plumbing. Frankly, if it were me, and it was clear you've got new PVC and very old plumbing fused together somehow, somewhere, I wouldn't touch that job. (Sorry, don't mean to be negative, just preparing you for some possible responses to your search for the right guy for the job.)

Thank you for explaining. Appreciate the input for snaking the line. So there are other methods they use to see the pipes? I honestly just want to vacuum the pool

I've had probably 10 people out over the last 2 years. They come, think they have an idea. Test their idea. Then decide they are wrong, nicely smile at me and tell me they aren't sure of the problem. I've had the new pump for probably almost a year. At this point I figure "let me just see if I can install it and see if it eliminates my lack of suction. Obviously not wanting to damage anything.
Yes I get aggravated with it. Give up for a few months then go back to attempting to figure it out

Dirk · Oct 17, 2020

Regarding the bigger pump, the pool supply left out part of the story, though I'm sure they were happy to sell you that pump, whether you needed it or not. Hopefully the Jim's can determine if the new pump is the fix or not. But here's a major concern: yes, you can dial down that variable speed pump to be safe for your plumbing, BUT: when VS pumps first turn on, they do so at a very high flow/RPM to move enough air and water to prime the pump, then after some number of seconds they dial back down to the speed you programmed. That action alone could blow out your paltry return side plumbing. Also, if the pump loses it's programming, or somehow otherwise gets turned up, then you've got another potential blowout. And Murphy's Law dictates that if that new pump blows up your plumbing, that won't happen in a nice, convenient spot above ground, it'll be the old pipe 10' down under your deep end!!

There is a way to program the initial priming speed, it'll be a setting in the pump, but you'd have to be sure to set that before you ever first let it loose on your plumbing. Frankly, unless you're going to add another return, I think that pump is too big (just as someone else mentioned). There are smaller VS pumps available that might be more appropriate for your system.

Dirk · Oct 17, 2020

I just deleted a rather hair-brained idea. Hopefully before you read it. It's late, I wasn't thinking straight!

Nite-nite. Hope you get better news tomorrow...

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