Hi from Texas

[Newdude]

would be shocked if they didn’t amend their documentation to be accurate. If that is actually incorrect they are causing damage to peoples equipment.

They are not damaging anyone's equipment becuase the heater's recommendation is long outdated also.

I suspect it is either a typo or old data but getting them to admit that may be tricky.

You keep assuming the person you get on the phone will have any sort of knowledge of chemistry. They will be reading from a script of FAQ. The heads of the company blindly follow the industry and might not even know, they have no reason to reinvent the wheel.

Manufacturers recommendations / spec sheets are basically the Bible in my line of work so that kinda carries over.

Not in the pool world.

We are friends now so I went out in the dark to get a pic to show you what my SWG is stamped with.



Not 'inspect cell' or 'gently clean cell' but *acid clean every 3 months*.

Not buried in a manual, or on the company webpage, but stamped on the device itself. (Also those other two places also, of course). I cannot make adjustments or even just glance to ensure the lights are on without seeing it. It was *that* important to them.

I have 0 to 25 calcium and my TA is in the low range. I cannot scale, yet they want me to soak it in acid for giggles, 4 times a year.

'Because the manufacturer says so' means very little around here, proven more times than we can count.

 

[Maldravus]

Questions are all good.
You are going to end up violating the pool manual (80-120) or the heater manual (200-400). Violation is inevitable.
CH is not required for HP. CH, at the levels we are talking about, you will not damage your HP with Calcium of 200.
I'd resolve the calcium issue with the FG pool maker, and go ahead and run 200.

There is never any plumbing corrosion due to low calcium levels. It is all a misunderstanding from a long long time ago when someone was trying to figure out the ideal chemical levels for closed circuit boiler water at a time when the chemistry involved was only partially understood. That has carried forward.
And more from your manual above:

1. Just like FC must be 1-3. No, it depends on your CYA.
2. CYA must be 30-50. Lots of pools that run with higher CYA (SWG) or lower (indoor pool).
3. TA must be 80-120. Maybe, if you are using pucks, without pucks, your pH rise will be high.
4. pH must be 7.4 to 7.8. Show me a pool, with a TA of 120, that doesn't require almost daily MA additions to maintain that level of pH. Or, show me a pool that has a pH that is stable in that range that doesn't have a TA of 50-60. They don't exist.

The only time that we see damage to HP is with high CH (forms significant scale) and low pH (<7.0) which is corrosive to metals.

Can you expand on #3? I stopped using pucks ~50 CYA which was also the time I discovered TFP. As you may be aware - I struggle with both slightly elevated TA and PH. Should I be dosing with MA more frequently since I am not using pucks? At some point when my CYA starts dropping I will float a puck in my robot but so far as I can tell I am still hovering ~50.

 

[Newdude]

Can you expand on #3? I stopped using pucks

The industry assumes most will use pucks over daily doses of LC. Their chemistry advice centers around that. Change the equation by going to bleach or a SWG and their answer/advice doesn't change to fit the new equation. So they're basically saying 4 + 4 = 8 and 1 + 3 = 8. We don't care about their 8. We grab a pencil and paper and have our own answer.

Should I be dosing with MA more frequently since I am not using pucks?

That is the natural byproduct of ceasing pucks. You are already adding more acid, you don't necessarily need smaller daily doses, only when Ph hits an 8.

 

[Maldravus]

I just performed my daily testing and chlorinating. Question - every day I test and dose the suggested amount of LC (it's usually 22oz, if I am being honest I am probably putting in more like 24-26oz). This is based on Pool Math and it is targeting 7ppm which is obviously the middle ground for FC given my CYA. My question is that every day when I test I get around 5.5ppm FC. Should I not be expecting to see 7ppm if the recommended dose from Pool Math is targeting that?

 

[Maldravus]

The industry assumes most will use pucks over daily doses of LC. Their chemistry advice centers around that. Change the equation by going to bleach or a SWG and their answer/advice doesn't change to fit the new equation. So they're basically saying 4 + 4 = 8 and 1 + 3 = 8. We don't care about their 8. We grab a pencil and paper and have our own answer.

That is the natural byproduct of ceasing pucks. You are already adding more acid, you don't necessarily need smaller daily doses, only when Ph hits an 8.

My PH is effectively always 8.0. I've done 2-3 MA doses which will bring the PH down to ~7.6 30 minutes after the test, but it's always back to 8.0 the next morning.

 

[Newdude]

it's usually 22oz, if I am being honest I am probably putting in more like 24-26oz)

Awesome. I call that 'wiggle room'. Every little bit helps.

This is based on Pool Math and it is targeting 7ppm which is obviously the middle ground for FC given my CYA.

There is no 'middle ground'. There is daily loss. Dose 3 ppm to 7, lose 1.5 today, tomorrow it's 5.5.

It evidently swung from 5.5 to 7 this time of year. In July it could swing 5ppm a day. You'll need to dose accordingly because 7 - 5 = 2.

'Middle ground' should never be a thought. Minimum FC and the recent daily loss are the important ones.

My PH is effectively always 8.0. I've done 2-3 MA doses which will bring the PH down to ~7.6 30 minutes after the test, but it's always back to 8.0 the next morning.

We are hoping the Ph rise will calm down after some time. Your pool won't need constant filling all year, the evaporation fluctuates like anything else. Or there's some wet weeks that counteract the evaporation and you don't see the Ph rise from less fill water needed.

 

[HermanTX]

My question is that every day when I test I get around 5.5ppm FC. Should I not be expecting to see 7ppm if the recommended dose from Pool Math is targeting that?

You have daily losses. If you are testing 24 hrs apart then that decline in ppm is your daily loss. It will change as the weather changes or if you use the pool more (higher bather load). This is why you should test at least every 2nd day and since you are just starting to understand your pool, daily testing is best. I remember my first summer I tested daily as I was using LC. A quart a day is not uncommon in the summer.

Also remember that the addition of LC is not perfect. It may be an older batch and somewhat degraded. This is why we target the upper range of the FC target and get nowhere near the minimum. You cannot predict what happens later that day.

An example, did the test and raised to x level. That afternoon 4 kids come over unexpectedly and bather load tripled. Are you still at your target level FC? Unlikely but if you had some wiggle room then all is fine then add another quart of LC after the kids depart. Life is good.

 

[PoolStored]

I just performed my daily testing and chlorinating. Question - every day I test and dose the suggested amount of LC (it's usually 22oz, if I am being honest I am probably putting in more like 24-26oz). This is based on Pool Math and it is targeting 7ppm which is obviously the middle ground for FC given my CYA. My question is that every day when I test I get around 5.5ppm FC. Should I not be expecting to see 7ppm if the recommended dose from Pool Math is targeting that?

My PH is effectively always 8.0. I've done 2-3 MA doses which will bring the PH down to ~7.6 30 minutes after the test, but it's always back to 8.0 the next morning.

We cannot see your pool math logs. Ensure that you are logged into pool math with your TFP username and login, go to the gear in the upper right corner, then scroll to the bottom and "enable sharing with TFP." If you have the subscription with a different UN/Password, email [email protected]

Dose your FC higher, so that WHEN YOU TEST, you are in range. If that means you dose higher than range, so be it. That way you don't risk a high FC demand day resulting in algae.

Let's see your pool math logs. Your TA is likely high...that is what causes the pH rise. Just manage your pH and your TA will sort itself out. Any pH from 7.0 to 8.0 is just fine.

 

[Maldravus]

We cannot see your pool math logs. Ensure that you are logged into pool math with your TFP username and login, go to the gear in the upper right corner, then scroll to the bottom and "enable sharing with TFP." If you have the subscription with a different UN/Password, email [email protected]

Dose your FC higher, so that WHEN YOU TEST, you are in range. If that means you dose higher than range, so be it. That way you don't risk a high FC demand day resulting in algae.

Let's see your pool math logs. Your TA is likely high...that is what causes the pH rise. Just manage your pH and your TA will sort itself out. Any pH from 7.0 to 8.0 is just fine.

I can enable sharing. What else is shared beside the numbers?

Also, definitely interested in getting the SWCG sooner rather than later. I think I've gone through 4 gallons of LC in a week or so.

 

[PoolStored]

I can enable sharing. What else is shared beside the numbers?

Nothing but the name of the pool. Click my name and you can see my logs and what is shared.

 

[TinFoilHat]

Your SSN, your first born, your girlfriends name.... Just kidding. Only your pool math pool information that you see on your own screen.

 

[Maldravus]

Nothing but the name of the pool. Click my name and you can see my logs and what is shared.

Done. Have a look!

 

[PoolStored]

Done. Have a look!

Great. With a TA of 100, you will have pH rise. Just continue to manage pH and TA will come down over time.
When your TA gets to 60-80 or so, your pH rise should subside and your pH will be fairly stable around 7.8 to 8.0.
What is the TA of your fill water?

 

[Maldravus]

Great. With a TA of 100, you will have pH rise. Just continue to manage pH and TA will come down over time.
When your TA gets to 60-80 or so, your pH rise should subside and your pH will be fairly stable around 7.8 to 8.0.
What is the TA of your fill water?

Fill water TA is 140. When you say "manage pH" - can you be more specific? As I said right now it clocks in at 8.0 every day, at least. Should I be dosing MA daily?

 

[PoolStored]

Fill water TA is 140. When you say "manage pH" - can you be more specific? As I said right now it clocks in at 8.0 every day, at least. Should I be dosing MA daily?

The only real impact of TA, when using liquid chlorine or SWG, is that at higher TA levels, pH will rise faster.
When you add acid, it lowers TA and pH. pH will rise without any inputs to the pool.
Since your fill water is 140, and you are now at 100, your acid additions have lowered TA by 40.
As your water evaporates and is replaced with 140 TA water, your TA will rise a bit.
You can effectively ignore TA (putting aside your warranties) and just manage your pH.
Keep it between 7.0 and 8.0 and you will be fine.
How you decide to handle pH, and when to adjust is up to you. I wouldn't obsess.
A pH of 8.0 is just fine.
What I would do is to lower pH by .4, when your pH gets to 8 or above. This will lower your pH and TA.
When your TA is 60-80, pH should be fairly stable between 7.8 and 8.

 

[Maldravus]

I am curious about the amount of LC I am using. I know I have brought it up before but it is becoming concerning given the price I am paying per gallon ($5.67 from Walmart). I just completed my test and am recommended to add 72oz of LC to bring FC from 4 to 9. I do not appear to have any CC (if I do, it is VERY faint and should be well within the 0.0-0.5 level). I seem to be adding quite a bit of LC daily and it is not summer yet. Are these levels expected? I did an OCLT last week and the change was 0 so I don't think there's anything growing or consuming the FC rapidly. It just seems like a lot of LC to be adding daily. I have gone through 5 gallons since I switched and just bought another 6 gallons. Also, I asked earlier but it may have gotten overlooked - any recommendations for sump pumps? There is a bit of water at the bottom of my 6" pipe that I want to drain out.

 

[TinFoilHat]

This all depends on your CYA levels and the strength of your LC. What is the date code on the bottles and what is your CYA level? Your PoolMath logs don't show you measuring any. What test kit do you have - put it in your signature? The lower the CYA the faster the FC will burn off.

 

[Maldravus]

This all depends on your CYA levels and the strength of your LC. What is the date code on the bottles and what is your CYA level? Your PoolMath logs don't show you measuring any. What test kit do you have - put it in your signature? The lower the CYA the faster the FC will burn off.

I have not been testing CYA daily, is that something I should be doing? The last time I checked maybe ~2 weeks ago it was 50 (from what I could tell). The LC is 10% and should be listed in the logs. Test kit is Taylor k2006.

 

[TinFoilHat]

No, testing CYA monthly should be fine unless you get a ton of rain and have to drain water off which is doubtful for you. What's the age of your chlorine?

 

[Newdude]

I have not been testing CYA daily, is that something I should be doing?

No it's very stable. Most find it the same as it was testing monthly. (After they proved it was holding weekly, and biweekly).

On the next blazing sun day that you're home, get another reading and we'll go from there. The test itself has some variance, and so do our eyes. The CYA *may* need to be bumped a little if you're reading it higher than it is.

What is the daily loss right now ? Is it 5 most days or you just added 5 today and it won't be 4 again tomorrow?

Also, I asked earlier but it may have gotten overlooked - any recommendations for sump pumps? There is a bit of water at the bottom of my 6" pipe that I want to drain out.

@JamesW do you know of any good ones ?