Plug main drain & revamp plumbing

[Turbolag]

My former pool guy plumbed in my salt cell without adapting the pipes or valves, rather he just separated the pool return line and plumbed it in using 6 90 degree elbows. It's quite a mess, I can't even access the floor/wall valve below with its handle. What he built is not very well supported and oscillates slightly. I just upgraded from a 1.65 HP pump to a 2.7 HP pump & I am worried the new pump will blow that mess right off the system.

I have a shared heater for 2 separate bodies with 2 separate pumps, so that is the reason for the busy interchange of pipes.

I am thinking to raise the lower pool diverter valves above the spa piping and turning the waterfall diverter valve around180 degrees so the return off the salt cell can go directing into it thus eliminating the last 2 elbows. With the pool pipes higher, they can feed directly into the salt cell eliminating the first 2 elbows. Thus I will go from 6 to 2 elbows in that path.

I will replumb with all sweep elbows. I am going to clean up other pipes too; there had been an autofill that was essentially directly connected to the household water supply which I deleted and I am going to move the polaris feed off the wall return and place it at the pool filter exit. Also going to eliminate an elbow on the heater return by changing the pipe path.

I am thinking to replace both the waterfall diverter valve and the pool floor/wall diverter valve while I am doing all this. On the pool pipes, there are a couple small plugs from whatever was connected. I know there was the old school chlorinator with the black hose on one.

Is it trivial to plug main drains and start such a job? I don't want to empty my 35,000+ gallon pool into the pool room to save whatever it would cost to pay someone because a plug wasn't secured. I am not even opposed to paying, but in my area, good pool service is hard to come by. Thanks in advance.

 

[Gourockian]

Is it trivial to plug main drains and start such a job? I don't want to empty my 35,000+ gallon pool into the pool room to save whatever it would cost to pay someone because a plug wasn't secured. I am not even opposed to paying, but in my area, good pool service is hard to come by. Thanks in advance.

I'm no expert (which is why I use the forums) so won't be able to help with what you are proposing to do but I am wondering why you think you could empty your pool while working on the plumbing? The only two scenarios where this could happen, as far as I am aware, would be if you kept the pump running (very unlikely) or if the pool was situated way above the equipment level (extremely unlikely). The only water you should see when you open up the plumbing would be any that is still in the pipes / pump / filter etc. above your opening point.

I've worked on my plumbing quite a few times and have had it completely disconnected but had no issues and certainly no need to plug the main drain while the pool was full. Hope this gives some peace of mind and you also get some response to your other questions.

Al

 

[Newdude]

but I am wondering why you think you could empty your pool while working on the plumbing?

It depends on the height of the pool room in relation to the water level. If the plumbing is opened at the pad, the pool will drain to that level, or the pool opening, whichever is higher. Let's say the plumbing is half as high as the water level. The skimmers and returns will stop when the water gets there, but the main drain will glug glug until the pool and pool room are equally flooded. It's not so bad to plug the returns and skimmers, but the main drains are a PITA.

And yes Turbo, if the pool equipment is below the water level, you'll need to plug the main drain or it will fill the room.

A few 90s will never make an appreciable difference and people get way too obsessive here. There could be 2 dozen that you don't see in the dirt but people lose their mind over 3 more at the equipment pad.

If you have multiple reasons to be repiping, then by all means fix whatever bothers you while you're at it.

 

[Gourockian]

It depends on the height of the pool room in relation to the water level. If the plumbing is opened at the pad, the pool will drain to that level, or the pool opening, whichever is higher. Let's say the plumbing is half as high as the water level. The skimmers and returns will stop when the water gets there, but the main drain will glug glug until the pool and pool room are equally flooded.

I was more or less saying the same thing, maybe not in so much detail. " or if the pool was situated way above the equipment level......The only water you should see when you open up the plumbing would be any that is still in the pipes / pump / filter etc. above your opening point."

I agree entirely about the problems trying to plug the main drain, unless you have scuba gear, including a weight belt.

 

[Turbolag]

Thanks for the responses & for making me think. The equipment room pad is below the pool level, but with the pool being lower while still closed, I suppose it is possible that water may not flow into the pipes if I open them up. I could always test that by opening up into the pump to see if it fills but I would hate to have the floor diverter valve cut off and a few minutes later, the plumbing burps & water starts running in.

To do this correctly, I really need to replace both diverter valves in these photos. One is the waterfall which I want to spin 180 degrees so the salt cell pipe goes directly in. The other is the floor/wall valve. These 2 valves are so close, the only way to swap only the waterfall would be to use a 2 1/2 inch coupling, cut 1/4 inch off each end and then reconnect them using the outer diameter of the valves. Otherwise, I could replace both of them using the inner 2 inch diameter connecting them with a length of pipe.

Reasons for the job:
You can see in the photos that the salt cell pipe blocks where the handle goes on the floor/wall diverter valve making it difficult to use
Create 10 inch straight run before flow sensor as it is clearly installed incorrectly here immediately after an elbow
Salt cell "loop" oscillates a bit when running & you can perceive the flow is pretty violent hitting 6 elbows (including 2 directly connected to create a 180)
Raise valves up to make them more accessible while also making more room below for the Polaris pump
Make sure all valves have enough clearance to accept GVA-24 actuators for automation (currently, the valve near the Polaris does not)
Move Polaris feed to filter output instead of current location on wall return
Concern that new pump, going from 1.65 to 2.7 HP will potentially cause the pipe movement to worsen & having this concern while away on vacation etc. is unsettling
Expectation that sweep elbows will somewhat improve flow between/among equipment
Need to cleanup some pipes anyway since as can be seen in photo, I am using an old Navy damage control technique with the pipe clamps on a cut up Fernco coupling to patch a hole

 

[Turbolag]

So I opened the floor valve to the pool pump & heard a small whoosh of air telling me that it was likely properly airlocked at closing. No water flowed into the pool pump.

Then I removed the Polaris feed off the wall return & looked into it while I opened the floor valve next to the wall return and water immediately flowed into the wall return. At what point should that water equalize? i.e. the pool water level is below the wall returns and if the floor flows into the wall returns, what should happen there?

Lastly with water flowing from the one floor return which is higher in the pool than the drain, I am perplexed why water did not flow into the pool pump.

 

[Gourockian]

Lastly with water flowing from the one floor return which is higher in the pool than the drain, I am perplexed why water did not flow into the pool pump.

You might find that if you open the air vent on your filter housing, water will flow into the pump. At least, that's what happens with my setup but I only have a basic cartridge filter.

 

[Turbolag]

You might find that if you open the air vent on your filter housing, water will flow into the pump. At least, that's what happens with my setup but I only have a basic cartridge filter.

Thanks. Yes, I had the cover of the pump basket off, so it should have flowed.

 

[Newdude]

At what point should that water equalize? i.e. the pool water level is below the wall returns and if the floor flows into the wall returns, what should happen there?

Water should fill the pipe to the height of the pool water almost instantaneously, if the 2 inch valve is fully open. A small opening like the air relief valve on the filter will psssssssssssssssssst until all the air is purged.

Then I removed the Polaris feed off the wall return & looked into it while I opened the floor valve next to the wall return and water immediately flowed into the wall return

Did water fill the pump / come out the open lid ?

Lastly with water flowing from the one floor return which is higher in the pool than the drain, I am perplexed why water did not flow into the pool pump

So one filled the pump and one didn't? Once it's underwater, the pool opening height doesn't matter, only the height of that leg. I'm sure it's not this dramatic but you'll get the idea if both pipes are fully open on both ends why the green one drains and the red one doesn't. It's more likely that the floor drain is plugged.

 

[Turbolag]

They are not both on the pump. One is the floor return & the other is the main drain feeding the pump. I didn't leave the floor return & main drain open at the same time. I tried them each separately and the drain/feed to the pump never flowed water while the floor return that shares a valve with the wall return has water in it. I know the drain is not plugged as I have used the pool with both skimmers closed. I guess next step might be to open both floor return & drain and see what happens. I can do so with the system closed so I don't have any issues. Appreciate you hanging with me on this.

 

[Newdude]

They are not both on the pump

Ok i got you now.

I can do so with the system closed so I don't have any issues.

Always a plus. Lol.

Unless the pipe is higher than the water level like the diagram above, it should flood the equipment pad like the return leg will if you cut that one.

Appreciate you hanging with me on this.

We all loves us a head scratcher. Keep us posted.

 

[Turbolag]

This morning I opened the valves for both the floor drain to the pool pump and the floor return where the salt cell is at the same time. The floor return flows and the floor drain to the pump does not flow at all. I had pulled the Polaris off the (blue handle) ball valve on the wall return to be able to monitor the flow. Maybe I should just let this free flow for 15 minutes to see what happens.

 

[Newdude]

So I opened the floor valve to the pool pump & heard a small whoosh of air telling me that it was likely properly airlocked at closing. No water flowed into the pool pump.

This means a couple of things.

1) the valve is properly working. It sealed properly to hold some air pressure and also opened properly to release said air pressure.

2) either the water from the main drain wooshed in until the point in the plumbing that is higher than the valve (if thats how it's run)

3) or the main drain is plugged / clogged and there was an air pressure differential in the pipe that was sealed on both ends.


With a cyclone blower you could blow air through the pump inlet and it would blow right through a high spot and geyser in the pool, but it wouldn't with a plug/clog.

 

[Turbolag]

I'm going to just dive and plug the floor return before I start the project.

Another question. Currently, my Polaris booster pump is plumbed after the salt generator. Of course they recommend it be plumbed upstream of the SCG. It is that big of a deal to be after the SCG? If I move it upstream of the SCG, then there will always be water flowing out of the Polaris return that has not been "treated." Is this typical? Anyone throw an actuator on their Polaris return to close the return when the booster pump is not running?

It's really crazy that in this one section, you need Polaris booster inlet, flow switch, check valve & salt generator

 

[Turbolag]

So I dove my pool & removed the floor inlet cover. It's the standard Pentair 08417-0005. I was surprised to find the plugs I had would not work to stop up the inlet. The threaded ones I have are too small and the rubber plugs don't work because there are nipples around the hole below the threads preventing those from taking a seat. Anyone know a part number for a stopper that can directly screw in those threads to block the inlet? Gonna try Pentair R22011

 

[Gourockian]

So I dove my pool & removed the floor inlet cover. It's the standard Pentair 08417-0005. I was surprised to find the plugs I had would not work to stop up the inlet. The threaded ones I have are too small and the rubber plugs don't work because there are nipples around the hole below the threads preventing those from taking a seat. Anyone know a part number for a stopper that can directly screw in those threads to block the inlet? Gonna try Pentair R22011

It sounds like you've got a 1-1/2 inch plug like this one with the double blocks but many drains use a 2-inch plug, even though they have a 1-1/2-inch pipe going to the pump. You can use your's with a 2-inch adapter which takes the 1-1/2-inch plug or just buy a 2-inch plug like this square block one. Both parts are usually available at Home Depot or Lowes.

 

[Turbolag]

It sounds like you've got a 1-1/2 inch plug like this one with the double blocks but many drains use a 2-inch plug, even though they have a 1-1/2-inch pipe going to the pump. You can use your's with a 2-inch adapter which takes the 1-1/2-inch plug or just buy a 2-inch plug like this square block one. Both parts are usually available at Home Depot or Lowes.

I think you're exactly right. I have both. Will give that a shot. thnx

 

[Turbolag]

Welp, I have the one with double blocks, but my adapter is not 2 inch, so I couldn't try that. I had already picked up a 2 inch schedule 40 plug from Home Depot (pictured below) and I applied PTFE tape and it still didn't work. I even brought the Pentair cover to Home Depot to check the threads and it seemed like a match. Screwed it smoothly about a quarter of an inch in & it seemed to snug up, but when I opened the diverter valve for that inlet, the water still flowed albeit at about half the rate. So I just pulled the plug back out and I am letting the pool drain from that valve until it stops. Then I will start the job. Hopefully I can get the job done quickly without experiencing any issues from draining the pool (it's concrete ). It is going down much further than I expected. I had made some estimated measurements and I felt that it would not go this far to reach the level of the valve.

 

[Newdude]

it seemed to snug up, but when I opened the diverter valve for that inlet, the water still flowed albeit at about half the rate

Sound like there were two openings in the pool and you sealed one of them. Dribbling from a crummy seal is one thing, but flowing is another opening.

 

[Turbolag]

I don't see how. The return in question is at the red arrow where the hot water comes from the heater. The other 2 at the yellow arrow is the main at the very bottom of the pool. The pad is not below the entire pool depth. Is there any risk if I end up draining the majority of my pool? I don't care about paying for water, I just don't want to cause a structural issue.