Spa spillover repair - 3/14 - Repair done! but sad plaster spot

[dfwnoob]

At least I think that's what they're called?

My spillover has four large tiles that the water run over in spillover mode. Those tiles are also responsible for holding the top 2" or so of water back under normal operation. The problem is, water has been leaking under here for some time, because you can see where the prior owners of the house tried "fixing it" by jamming it full of pool putty. It was fine for a while, and while the water would leak out under the pavers, it took a few hours so it didn't bother me too much when we used the spa.

Unfortunately in the last freeze, the water getting under there finally really messed things up and it must have heaved one of them pretty good because now water just pours out the front of the spa. It'll leak down to the bottom of the pavers in 15 minutes.

This doesn't look like that hard of a job, right? I imagine it's just getting the four pavers out, chipping out the old grout/mortar, and reinstalling? Am I crazy or should I find a stone mason who is willing to work on this? If I tackle it myself, can anyone recommend what mortar (or is it grout?) I would need to re-set the pavers? Anyone done a similar job that can offer any tips? (For what it's worth I haven't been thwarted by taking on new projects before - I did install the heater, SWCG, do all the plumbing, etc - it's just that I have no experience with doing any sort of masonry work)

 

[ajw22]

Most of the work is in removing the stones without cracking them, cleaning the stones, and cleaning out the old mortar and grout down to a clean bond beam.

If you get that far ok then use Type S Mortar.

The right power tools and blades to cut through the mortar lines and remove it will help. If you don’t have the right tools it may cost you as much as just hiring a mason to do it. Who can probably get it done in less than half the time it will take you.

 

[dfwnoob]

Yeah, I didn't consider any speciality tools I might need.. I'm not opposed to buying pricy tools, but I can't see myself ever doing any other masonry work in the future. I also don't know what I'd do if I broke one of those pavers.

If I had a step-by-step guide to doing this work I might feel a little more confident, but going into this all mostly blind makes me nervous.

I guess I'll try to call around next week and see if I can find a mason to take the job. The company that built the pool is still in business, but they are notoriously expensive and I'm sure they'll just sub the job out anyway. Thanks for the insight, Allen.

 

[ajw22]

It is impossible to know until you try how securely the stones are held to the mortar. They could release easily or the mortar may need to be chiseled out. Once the stones are out then the hard work is in the cleanup..

 

[dfwnoob]

Got a quote from the company that built the pool originally just to get a baseline. They want $3K to do the repair, which includes:

• Removing and reinstalling the top two tiers of the stone (the four "pavers" I showed above, plus the tier below that one)
• Grind and repoint all of the cracked joints on the face of the spa (there are quite a few of these now since the water got behind the brick and wrecked the mortar all over)
• Fully draining the pool and refilling (water is at my cost from my tap, not trucked in); remove hydrostatic plug.
• "Acid wash after repair and chemical start-up"

This brings me to a couple of questions for the experts. Is a full drain really necessary? I know this will probably make some dust, but my idea was possibly floating a tarp in the pool to catch debris. Was that too naive? And also, is an acid wash really a great idea? My plaster is from 2006 and original, and I'm very leery about an acid wash. My plaster is ugly with staining, but otherwise physically in good shape. I'm hoping to limp it along another couple of years before we invest in a re-plaster. Does anyone think this is actually necessary?

 

[ajw22]

What pool cleaner do you have to clean up the debris in the pool?

Depends how much you want to be involved managing the floating tarp, getting the tarp out without dumping much debris in the water, and minimizing the debris that gets in the pool.

When I do the work I can take my time. They just want to let the dust fly into the water and then drain it out. Time is money to them.

You can tell them no drain and you will handle the cleanup. If it becomes too much of a mess then draining is a last resort.

You can drain and not acid wash your old plaster.

 

[dfwnoob]

The only cleaner I have is the Polaris 280 in my sig, nothing else special.

But yeah, I see where they're coming from when it comes to just getting it done as quickly as possible. Price for the repair itself including draining is $2500. I have no interest in their "chemical start-up" or acid washing.

I'll get some additional quotes but I guess it's good to have a baseline and your explanation was definitely helpful.

 

[Newdude]

Is a full drain really necessary?

Maybe they want access to the pool side without taking a swim in February. Sure they could grout upside down and whatnot by reaching over the drained spa, but it'd sure be easier from the pool side. So maybe an easier cleaning is the reason to drain but pool side access is an added bonus ?

 

[dfwnoob]

Maybe they want access to the pool side without taking a swim in February.

Shameful. Back in my day we repaired pools in a blizzard, and we had to walk 5 miles up hill, both ways, just to get there. And we were thankful!

(yeah, good point. Leaning over the edge of the spa for hours doing the re-pointing would hurt)

 

[dfwnoob]

Well, the mason finally came out and started tearing into it. After he was here for an hour or so and had ripped the top layer of flagstone bricks off, I see the contractor from the pool company show up, so I go out there to see what's going on.

Basically, they're telling me that this part (identified in orange) is hollow and it shouldn't be. I'm not extremely familiar with spa construction, so I don't know if that's right or wrong. He did tap on it with his hammer and yes, it indeed does sound hollow:



They're saying it was built incorrectly and that they need to tear this part and the entire brick facade off the front of the spa and redo it. The mason pointed out that there was some sort of silicone/caulking in this groove and that he's never seen that before:



He said it looked as if they were using that silicone to try and "waterproof" the joint, which is not correct. I personally saw him tear gray silicone out of that joint so it was definitely there. Again, whether that's right or wrong I'm not sure.

So for now, the contractor said they need to go back and draft a new quote because if they just re-install the flagstone it "will happen again the first time if freezes". I guess that makes sense to me since that's how we got into this mess in the first place. The problem is, I have no idea if I'm being BS'd or not. I don't actually know what this whole area is supposed to look like and I can't find any pictures on the forum. I can find lots of pictures of a pool bond beam, but nothing like a spa spillover.

Here are some additional pictures I took:






Any of the experts here have any advice? Both the mason and the contractor left and the contractor said he'd call me once he knows more. I have a feeling this is is about to be very expensive, but I want to be sure what he's saying is accurate before I pull the trigger on some major work.

The joys of home ownership.

 

[dfwnoob]

Additional question: is the bond beam the actual spa "shell"? e.g. this?:

 

[ajw22]

I would have asked the mason if he had a drill with a concrete bit and had him drill two or three holes within the orange area and see if it was solid or the bit broke through to an opening.

The exploratory holes can always be tilled with hydraulic cement.

It is not clear to me what they plan to do after they tear the brick off the spa wall.

 

[dfwnoob]

To be fair, that makes two of us. The contractor himself didn't seem entirely clear and I had a language barrier with the mason on understanding exactly what he was trying to articulate. I figured I would have heard something back by now (my spa is sitting out dry baking in the sun, so I figured there would be something resembling urgency).

I want them to draft up a new detailed quote explaining what exactly they plan on doing.

 

[dfwnoob]

Contractor called me back and advised they're still waiting on the overpriced quote to be drafted.

I had him explain it to me again, slowly, as to what we're doing when we rip off the brick. He said the mason told him that he "wants to see what's underneath the brick" to "make sure it was done right". He explained that sometimes when people build those walls up they fill it full of junk and old concrete and whatnot. I told him "well, that's interesting and frustrating to hear considering your company built the pool." He was silent for a while and then said "well look, we can just come back and try to waterproof everything and put the pavers back in place blah blah blah". I told him I want to see the detailed quote explaining what they're doing and we'll make a decision from there.

He couldn't give me a timeframe on exactly when they'd be back out. I reiterated again that I don't want my plaster sitting out in the sun. He said he can come back and put the hose in it. I told him I can do that myself. So more money thrown away for water that's just going to be drained out whenever they return. What a joke.

I truly am confused on what they're trying to pull here. Even if the install was "wrong", it originally lasted ~19 years, so if it lasts another 19 I really do not care.

 

[dfwnoob]

Rather timely now, I just received the "addendum" to the original quote.

This is literally all it says:

Addendum description:​

Remove the brick veneer on the spa spillway down to gunite​

Waterproof and rebuild the spillway.​

​

$2900​

​

No explanation as to why. No explanation as to what purpose it's serving.

 

[Newdude]

I'm thrilled the quote is missing a 5th digit, so you have that going for you, which is nice.

Its wild how he trashed his own install, but there is tons of stuff the subs could have gotten away with for years until the relationship soured.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

Most common practice of building spa walls that come in contact with the pool is having that wall a continuous thickness and not building a secondary wall outside of the first. This can be done and still achieved the needed outcome for the spillway.
Your concern should be the process of rebuilding the spa wall, ask for specific details.

 

[dfwnoob]

I think that's what confused me about the whole design, the "second wall". I've never seen anything like that in other people's builds.

Either way, I can confirm that the "second wall" is indeed probably full of voids for some reason. You can knock on it even with your knuckles and it sounds hollow throughout.

I went back out a little while ago and really did the whole thing a good once over, and if you grab the veneer at the top and give it a solid push/pull, you can absolutely move it around. Maybe 3/10ths of an inch or so back and forth, so it seems like the brick isn't even really attached to the wall anymore, and the gap between the veneer and the wall lends credence to that.

If they had just explained that to me I think I would have been much more open to hearing them out. I think what happened is their poorly constructed second wall "full of junk" probably settled over time, separating the outside brick veneer as well as the pavers and encouraging the mortar to break down below the pavers leading to this whole problem.

Maybe rebuilding that whole thing really is the best way. I guess I'll still wait to hear some more opinions.

 

[ajw22]

I think you need to core drill into the wall from the top or side to determine whether it is really hollow or all gunite.

I would not pull the brick face off until you get more conclusive proof of what the structure is.

 

[dfwnoob]

Given that some of the bricks were already pretty severely dislodged, I peered down inside. It doesn't look like there is any "second wall" at all.. it's full of rocks and stones. It looks like what they did was build up the brick veneer, fill the void between the spa shell and veneer with rocks/stones, and then poured concrete on top of it. That's why it sounds hollow. THAT's what the mason saw and why he called the contractor.

That pretty much explains everything, and leaves me with no actual option at this point but to have it rebuilt.

I can ask to have them drill the concrete on top but that's exactly what it looks like to me.