New guy with an old pool - Bonding Issue

[AL2K]

Bonded and replaced both ladder anchors, connected new bonding loop to the handrail that had no connection. Took some voltage readings before and after. Before: 2+VAC between the water and handrail… with noticeable tingle. After adding additional loop and making sure everything is connected, .04 VAC and no tingle. Even though I previously added a water bond fitting near the pump, the ladder does the best job in reducing the voltage potential. Once I get the concrete repaired, I’ll be happy to move on to the next project. This one was a bit much. Thanks Mark, for the guidance.

Maybe a SWG conversion?

 

[AL2K]

Just got zapped cleaning out the skimmer. Now that I’ve made sure the metal parts…including the water are bonded, seems I’m chasing another ghost. This wasn’t an issue before I fixed the broken bond. This is a fiberous slab, with no rebar.

I see another long forum post about the same issue. I’ll try to digest that for now. I’ll remove everything metal, along with the water bond before I go digging up the entire pool deck.

 

[mas985]

Just got zapped cleaning out the skimmer. Now that I’ve made sure the metal parts…including the water are bonded, seems I’m chasing another ghost. This wasn’t an issue before I fixed the broken bond. This is a fiberous slab, with no rebar.

I see another long forum post about the same issue. I’ll try to digest that for now. I’ll remove everything metal, along with the water bond before I go digging up the entire pool deck.

Was the deck wet when that happened?

Exactly what is a fiberous slab made out of?

 

[AL2K]

I was wet… and barefooted, so yes. After this happened, I removed the ladder, so the water wasn’t bonded. As I’m swimming around, I can splash parts of the deck and feel the shock. Some sections, no. Probably a waste of time but it seems like it’ll tell me what sections of the slab might have bonding issues. Not that I can really do anything about it. I made sure the metal items were bonded and didn’t expect the slab to cause issues.

I said “fiberous” not knowing the proper term for non-rebar/fiber-reenforced slab.

 

[mas985]

Concrete can be very conductive especially when water flows over it so since it isn't bonded, it gives the current a direct path to Earth ground.

 

[AL2K]

Yeah, guess I was hoping my fix would take care of the whole bonding problem… knowing all along that there were continuity differences between all of the metal items through the slab. Basically, I just buried new wire, and made sure it was connected to all of the metal items. I figured that would be the least costly and had to give it a shot.

From what I’ve read in the other forum posts, there’s really no easy fix for the slab issues. Maybe cutting a groove and adding new #8, tied into the known good bond will fix it? I’m at the mercy of the local pool repair company’s knowledge. There are expansion gaps and other things I’m sure I know nothing about. One forum post talked about adding mesh and laying pavers on top. Not sure that’s a good solution for my scenario.

Mark, I see plenty of other posts that you’re helping with, on the same bonding issues, so I’ll keep reading and hoping for a solution. Thanks again.

Al

 

[Barry321]

Yeah, guess I was hoping my fix would take care of the whole bonding problem… knowing all along that there were continuity differences between all of the metal items through the slab. Basically, I just buried new wire, and made sure it was connected to all of the metal items. I figured that would be the least costly and had to give it a shot.

From what I’ve read in the other forum posts, there’s really no easy fix for the slab issues. Maybe cutting a groove and adding new #8, tied into the known good bond will fix it? I’m at the mercy of the local pool repair company’s knowledge. There are expansion gaps and other things I’m sure I know nothing about. One forum post talked about adding mesh and laying pavers on top. Not sure that’s a good solution for my scenario.

Mark, I see plenty of other posts that you’re helping with, on the same bonding issues, so I’ll keep reading and hoping for a solution. Thanks again.

Al

I have a thread a little lower down- many of the same issues. It's caused me major stress. Didn't even use pool last year and haven't used it this year even though it's mid 90s here almost every day now in South Carolina. My 16 year old daughter just treats the situation as one where we don't have a pool. She never even asks about it anymore. It's just a hole in the ground at this point.

What a huge waste of $30,000+

When I unhook the pool bonding wire from the outside of the pool pump, the stray voltage disappears (measures under 0.1 volts at the pool hand rails). Power company says their panel and everything is correct and they won't change anything.

I have nowhere else left to turn at this point. Stray voltage at my pool is something that I just have and there is no way to solve it.

 

[AL2K]

Barry321, I think yours was one of the posts that I was following. I’m pretty sure I know what needs to be done with mine. I also have the neutral voltage from the service, which remained even with the house meter removed. Proper bonding of the metal items and water took away the tingle… brought it all to the same potential. Unfortunately there are some poor connections in the 40 year old slab that need to be corrected. This’ll probably require a wet saw and tying into the good loop. Guess I always wanted to resurface the cool deck.

 

[mas985]

Just our of curiosity, if you measure each side of the 120v service, what is the voltage difference between each side? The reason I ask is that should show an imbalance which manifests itself as NEV.

For example, in my house, one leg is 117.1v while the other led 117.8v or 0.7v NEV level. Every house will have NEV it is just a mater of level and if causes any issue.

 

[AL2K]

NEV.

I remember the electric company tech checking that with the meter removed. I don’t remember the exact reading but he said they were matched up. It was 117.?

Kinda funny… I was just checking various sections of the pool deck. With the ladder/water bond removed, I swam around and splashed water up onto the deck to see if it was bonded, and if I got a tingle or not. I can almost isolate an area where the loop loses connection. Not confident enough to start chipping away though. We have a contact that works with a cable contractor, who has some test gear that can detect wires in concrete. I’ll see if that reveals anything.

Also starting to contact pool repair companies, to see if they have experience in existing slab bonding repair.

 

[Barry321]

Barry321, I think yours was one of the posts that I was following. I’m pretty sure I know what needs to be done with mine. I also have the neutral voltage from the service, which remained even with the house meter removed. Proper bonding of the metal items and water took away the tingle… brought it all to the same potential. Unfortunately there are some poor connections in the 40 year old slab that need to be corrected. This’ll probably require a wet saw and tying into the good loop. Guess I always wanted to resurface the cool deck.

i am glad you found your problem. My pool is only about 7 years old and the pool builder (in business 35+ years before retiring about 4 years ago) was highly recommended by several friends (at the time friends, not so much now).

 

[Barry321]

Just our of curiosity, if you measure each side of the 120v service, what is the voltage difference between each side? The reason I ask is that should show an imbalance which manifests itself as NEV.

For example, in my house, one leg is 117.1v while the other led 117.8v or 0.7v NEV level. Every house will have NEV it is just a mater of level and if causes any issue.

i know this question wasn't for me but my power company guy measured this at the panel (if that is what you are talking about) and the difference was 1.5-2 volts max - which he said was what he expected at mine.

 

[Barry321]

Also starting to contact pool repair companies, to see if they have experience in existing slab bonding repair.

I hope you have better luck than I do.

1) They are all busy doing installs right now in my area.

2) Don't want to mess with a pool they didn't install.

3) Act like they have no idea what I am talking about and "we never encounter this issue" - a statement I've heard numerous times from experienced pool companies - and my favorite- "if the bond is connected to the pool pump and the bond wire looks ok, then it's fine. It's like asking a pilot about flight safety and him saying "well, if the plane's wheels look ok, then the engines are fine"

 

[mas985]

I remember the electric company tech checking that with the meter removed. I don’t remember the exact reading but he said they were matched up. It was 117.?

I would look at it myself because there is no way it is "matched up". It is very easy to measure on your own.

 

[AL2K]

own.

I’ll do that. Need to eliminate all faults… not just the wonky bonding.

I also remember a post that said an old landline was introducing voltage into the ground, and feeding the neutral? I’ll make sure the old bellsouth lines are capped and stowed.

 

[AL2K]

now).

I feel for you and your family. Don’t give up. There are lots of knowledgeable folks here, that will eventually help you figure it out. I’m in north Florida so the pool companies stay backlogged.

I’ve identified some of the problem but I’m far from completion. I think I still have plenty questions to research. What I do know is that I was able to connect all of the metal components and at the same time, bond the water with the ladder. The deck seems to be the last piece to the puzzle for me. If I have to rent a wet saw and lay in new wire, so be it. I just need some details so it’s not a waste of time, money and effort.

 

[mas985]

I also remember a post that said an old landline was introducing voltage into the ground, and feeding the neutral? I’ll make sure the old bellsouth lines are capped and stowed.

I have heard that before but I am skeptical about the feasibility of that happening.

The reason being that both Cable and Phone lines have power on one of the conductors and another conductor is a shared referenced to the local power companies ground/neutral. So if the "hot" wire shorts to the house neutral, the power supply of the Phone operator would experience a fault and that line should disconnect.

However, if the house neutral did not have a good connection to the power/cable/phone companies neutral (i.e. high resistance), then that could potentially have some voltage on the line. But in this case you would have bigger issues and the electrician should have discovered that.

 

[AL2K]

NEV.

117.0/117.8 with HVAC on. 118.1/118.8 w/ HVAC off.

Confirmed the tingle with water at both skimmers… standing on pool deck w/ wet feet. No issues at the metal fixtures and the water.

First pool company won’t even look at it until the slow season. Not giving up yet. Is there really a slow season in Florida?

I’m finding plenty of discussion in various web forums. One guy added two loops… one under and one around his slab.

Still hoping for the wiz-bang wiring detector to identify the bad areas in the slab.