Just saying hello & hoping to meet other "strange" weirdo DIY people

[godwinson]

Here's the scoop on the second DIY project. It's for dispensing pool chemicals. The black thing is indeed the measuring cup's handle. The green are protective gloves. The bucket is for carrying acid jugs across my deck, which I stained with dripping acid before I came up with this solution. The link is to the post about what the thing is. That rest of that same thread is all about my quest for knowledge and how best to handle harsh pool chemicals.

#97

Ah. Dispensing thingey made sense given it's for a pool after all - and that it had a measuring cup and a basket of some sort.

Thanks for describing that black thing which didn't look like it did much - so it was odd looking... and the green thing too - gloves makes sense since it was rubber on the outside and clothy on the inside and thin and flappy - but I didn't think of gloves. Silly me. (I don't use them ever but perhaps I should. Wanna see my chain saw scars?).

Looking at the link... I agree on the venting as I probably need ten gallons of 32.45% acid and that stuff outgases making you cough like a chain-smokin' cowboy.
Now I see the bucket shape from above... and the gloves....

And the holder ... that's a brick outhouse kind of holder... way too well engineered! Good for you!

You know, I shouldn't say this because I almost never use protective equipment, but I just pour the acid in the pool while I'm in the pool.
Same with the chlorine. Dunno. Maybe that's why my skin falls off like a molting snake... (hey that's why my hair is white!).

Your solution is just too well engineered!

Yeah, I know... I know... you're supposed to run the equipment and all that... but what if you can't and you still need to do it since you're only adding water at the rate of a couple hundred gallons a day (which is all the stress the well can take). I stir it up with my body. I'm my own aerator water feature too!

BTW, all the darn "pool calculators" out there are for rectangular and round pools where this one is funnily shaped so I already broke it into sections so I'm fine with the rough gallonage but my OCD (like yours) wants exact numbers to the milliliter... so if you know of a "real" pool calculator - one that can handle steps and varying slopes, let me know. I downloaded a few 3D CAD tools which can calculate volume but the hard part is DRAWING the darn thing. It's HARD to figure out how to use the 3D CAD tools. All I want is a volume. They'll do it to the milliliter but the work is in learning how the tools work.
blender
freecad
madview
openscad

It would be fun to have a 3D drawing of the pool though, with pipes and all that, so if/when I get around to learning those tools, I'll likely post a DIY thread on how to draw your pool using one of those tools... but that's for a later date.

 

[godwinson]

No. I bought the best there is (Heliocol), and they have a 20 year warranty. Sometimes it makes sense to DIY, other times not. The key is to know when to do which, but I hear ya on the budget. The panels are not cheap, and must be sky high now. I got mine for $300 each, and that was a steal back then. I saw them for $1000 each when I was shopping. I did my whole system for about $3K, and saved $7K by installing it myself. So technically my system is part commercial, part DIY!

A quickie search just now revealed about $800 per panel, so they haven't come down.

If my panels do someday leak, the manufacturer supplied me with a repair kit. You might do some research to see if the manufacturer of your panels offers something similar.

The physics of heating a pool is counterintuitive. It trips up just about everyone, so you're in good company. It seems to make sense: "The hotter the water, the better the heating." But it's: "The more the water, the better the heating." I learned what I know about it while assembling my system, and figuring out the proper flow rate. And from others here that know a lot about it. I'm just parroting...

This is ALL good to know!
that's what I came here for.
The non intuitive stuff.

I don't mind being wrong - but I like it a lot more when I know it's right.
I can plug the holes in the solar panels, but seriously, there's like a hundred separate leaks. Maybe two hundred.
I'm told you plug them above and below the leaks so that's a lot of stopped up pipes.
And there are only about ten panels (about 400 sq feet I'd guess).

I LOVE your explanation of the physics, as it's NOT what I thought.
Thanks! That's why I'm here!

 

[godwinson]

FYI: the way my solar panel repair kit works is basically just plugging up any leaking tubes. So if one tube leaks, it in essence gets taken "off line." Where are yours leaking? At the manifold? Or in the middle somewhere? You could one-by-one just pinch them off, or cut them and plug them up. You'll lose heating capacity, but maybe better than abandoning them? Of course, if they're leaking now then they're at end-of-life, and you could just be whack-a-moling: fix one leak, another pops up.

They're all leaking mostly at the bottom end (probably got frozen?) about a foot or two from the bottom manifold.
I understand how to plug them with the cone shaped rubber plugs. And yes, I understand that they get taken off line.
I'll look for a source of the rubber plugs (the kit I have will do about five or ten and that's it).
1. You slice out the hole
2. You shove a plug above
3. You shove a plug below

Easier said than done but yeah, that's what I have.
Stupid design if you ask me as they shouldn't leak all that much.

All the leaks are in the thin tubes along a line that is supposed to "swirl" the water.
Lesson to a buyer - don't get the fancy stuff. It's all marketing. The swirl is the weak point.

I might play the whack-a-mole game.
But first I need a good source of cheap rubber plugs.
Maybe solid rubber tubing would work?
I'll have to do some measuring.

 

[godwinson]

What a fun read so far!

Covers-many have tired this and that over time. The consensus is buy the cheapest you can find as none of them last more than a year or two

That's what I was afraid of.
They have the bubble stuff but it's never gonna be the right size.
Same with a tarp.

Do tarps even work?

 

[Newdude]

Do tarps even work

Any impermeable barrier will work the same. Cling / seran wrap would stop just as much evaporation as a tarp or a solar cover. Evap is where about 70% of your heat loss comes from. It's typically overnight when the air temps fall below the water temp, but also when it's windy.

*Good luck getting the Cling wrap to roll up nicely.

*Good luck getting the tarp to float for very long.

 

[Dirk]

there's like a hundred separate leaks. Maybe two hundred

Yah, sounds like they're done.

I'm not going to preach to you about your MO for chemicals. Only this: we don't condone or support pool water maintenance without one of our two recommended kits. We're not snobs, it's just that we are literally unable to. It's your business to not use one, but you won't get any help here (or rather you won't get any meaningful help here) without the kit. We can yak all you want about DIY fun, but for now, you're on your own regarding your chemistry. Just tellin' it like it is.

Regarding the pool volume, sorry, ya got here a little late. I describe how to get the exact volume using water meters. Even with a rectangular pool there is no better method. I could have set you up, but you have to start from empty. Your "divide and conquer" approach is probably going to be the only thing available. There is a way to determine, and/or verify, your water volume through accurate testing, but without the kit, I can't help you with that, either.

But first I need a good source of cheap rubber plugs.

The plugs they sell for drip irrigation are barbed and might work. Kinda cheap.

They have the bubble stuff but it's never gonna be the right size.

That stuff is meant to be trimmed to fit, so it can work with any size/shape pool. It'll fit as perfectly as you're able to cut it.

 

[godwinson]

There are the bubble wrap covers. I think they're about $100, but they only last one season, I've been told. They'll keep the pool warmer, and help with evaporation, too. Maybe leaves as well, if you can figure out how to remove the cover without the leaves sliding off in the pool. This stuff, shop around:

https://www.amazon.com/Sun2Solar-15-Foot-30-Foot-Above-Ground-Swimming/dp/B00DWABCZ2

I eat the heat loss, and the water loss. Oh well. I like to look at my shimmering TFP-clear water, and jump in whenever I want without having to mess with a cover. Just my personal choice.

The bubble wrap might work but just as you and others said, the stuff won't last but a year, so it's not gonna really work as I don't have money to waste (I can barely pay for what I got for free).


I remember seeing a Veritasium video on shade balls... but I forget WHY they used them.


I just skimmed it. They did it for the bromide mixing with the Clorine with the sunlight creating ozone or something like that.

So it doesn't really say if it will work for a pool but likely not as you have to get them in and out of the pool (they're half filled with water), and they might keep heat in overnight, but maybe not, and they might let leaves blow over without stopping, but maybe not... so they don't look feasible unless someone here has actually tried it.

 

[Dirk]

My bubblers. Easy PVC project, didn't even use glue.

 

[Newdude]

Ok. I'll take one crack at it.

I'm sure I'll get myself in trouble by buying this cheap two-reagent ACE kit for about four bucks............ The rest I'll let the pool stores do for me

So. Would you ever, EVER, waltz into a Jiffy Lube looking confused and ask them to check your levels ?

You wouldn't. The same 19 year old 'professional' has been highly trained by Jiffy Lube to sell you all kinds of headlight fluid and muffler bearings that you don't need. The pool store is the same deal.

When you continually spurn their, ahem, expert advice, they will stop testing your water for free. 4 or 5 inaccurate tests later, you could have had a TF100 the whole time. Or one half of a visit where you bought the Pool RX 911 Blue Caribbean 12-in-1 magic sauce.


Up to you.

 

[Dirk]

So it doesn't really say if it will work for a pool

It won't. All the physics aside, it's incredibly dangerous to swim, or allow others to swim, in a pool where you can't very clearly see the bottom, all of the bottom. Balls or bubblewrap or Saran Wrap, whatever, it all has to be removed, 100% of it, each time, every time, before anyone swims (which is the primary reason I don't use a cover, 'cause I just don't want to do that).

 

[godwinson]

Any impermeable barrier will work the same. Cling / seran wrap would stop just as much evaporation as a tarp or a solar cover. Evap is where about 70% of your heat loss comes from. It's typically overnight when the air temps fall below the water temp, but also when it's windy.

*Good luck getting the Cling wrap to roll up nicely.

*Good luck getting the tarp to float for very long.

Ah. This is yet more unintuitive stuff that makes sense only when someone tells you it.
Thanks. Anything will work, but yes, good luck rolling it up.

Evap causing the heat loss would happen more during the day though, right?

 

[godwinson]

My bubblers. Easy PVC project, didn't even use glue.

View attachment 440915

Ah. Nice idea. I need bubblers (later when the alkalinity is lowered). Um, er... but I don't see any warning labels... you're gonna get in trouble with the law without those warning labels y'know...

Nice though... is the outgoing water from the garden hose? Or is it from a pump? Seems to me it has to be from a pump (my garden hoses are about 60 psi at about 5 gallons a minute so they'd be adding water to the pool at the rate of 300 gallons an hour).

But a small pump is feasible. I could use, for example, that harbor freight pump I pictured in a previous post in this thread, and drill holes in PVC pipe.

The next question is one of reality (like those of the physics of the heating of water).

Hypothetically say I took my pH 7.8 high alkalinity pool of a few tens of thousands of gallons and I managed (with about ten gallons of 31.45% HCl) to burn off the excess carbonates, and now I want to raise the pH without raising the alkalinity so I bubble the carbon dioxide out by making those aerators you have above.

How LONG does it take (hours? days? weeks? months?) to get the pH back up at an aeration rate as shown in your excellent photo above?

 

[godwinson]

Ok. I'll take one crack at it.


So. Would you ever, EVER, waltz into a Jiffy Lube looking confused and ask them to check your levels ?

You wouldn't. The same 19 year old 'professional' has been highly trained by Jiffy Lube to sell you all kinds of headlight fluid and muffler bearings that you don't need. The pool store is the same deal.

When you continually spurn their, ahem, expert advice, they will stop testing your water for free. 4 or 5 inaccurate tests later, you could have had a TF100 the whole time. Or one half of a visit where you bought the Pool RX 911 Blue Caribbean 12-in-1 magic sauce.


Up to you.

There's even another reason than what you said for me to test stuff myself which is that a pool store isn't within thirty miles of me, which is a PITA, but the plan was to combine trips to the grocery store and the pool store for their crazy tests.

I've seen the inaccuracies already (yes, I read the threads on here so I knew about that) by going to multiple stores (there are three within a few miles of each other) with three different bottles. I already did it and I already saw differing numbers so you're preaching to the choir in terms of how bad the pool store numbers are.

I don't disbelieve a word you said.

As for taking the pool store advice, I listened to the store clerk tell someone who had algae that he needed to lower his phosphates and then I pulled the guy over to the side and whispered that dead algae (from enough sanitizer) don't eat phosphates and also that copper and other stuff in the algicide just add chemicals to his water... where... to my credit... I told him to look up this web site (I really did) so we're all on to the way the pool stores try to sell you stuff you don't need.

Chlorine is my algaecide of choice.

I'm keeping things KISS so it isn't likely I'll be talked into some fancy algaecide #1 for green algae and a different algaecide #2 for yellow algae and a different algaecide #3 for black algae given Chlorine works for all of them as long as it's always there and always above the 7.5% CYA level (AFAIK).

 

[Newdude]

Evap causing the heat loss would happen more during the day though, right?

The air temp needs to be below the pool temperature for evaporation to occur. Typically that's late/early in the day and overnight. But if a cold front comes in mid day, it can be then too. Also, being windy accelerates it because the waves have more surface area than a still pool. Think of all the ^^^^^^^^^^^ VS -------------- that's alot more potential heat transfer with waves.

I don't always follow the rules either.

I try to understand them though,

Fair enough. You do you. we'll help where we can, or further than that if you change your mind down the road.

 

[Dirk]

Ah. Nice idea. I need bubblers (later when the alkalinity is lowered). Um, er... but I don't see any warning labels... you're gonna get in trouble with the law without those warning labels y'know...

Nice though... is the outgoing water from the garden hose? Or is it from a pump? Seems to me it has to be from a pump (my garden hoses are about 60 psi at about 5 gallons a minute so they'd be adding water to the pool at the rate of 300 gallons an hour).

But a small pump is feasible. I could use, for example, that harbor freight pump I pictured in a previous post in this thread, and drill holes in PVC pipe.

The next question is one of reality (like those of the physics of the heating of water).

Hypothetically say I took my pH 7.8 high alkalinity pool of a few tens of thousands of gallons and I managed (with about ten gallons of 31.45% HCl) to burn off the excess carbonates, and now I want to raise the pH without raising the alkalinity so I bubble the carbon dioxide out by making those aerators you have above.

How LONG does it take (hours? days? weeks? months?) to get the pH back up at an aeration rate as shown in your excellent photo above?

The bubblers are attached to the pool returns, the main filter pump drives them with pool water. You could definitely do something similar with a good sump pump.

I was serious about helping you with chemistry without the kit. Sorry. Maybe others will. I'm not an expert on chemistry anyway...

 

[godwinson]

The air temp needs to be below the pool temperature for evaporation to occur. Typically that's late/early in the day and overnight. But if a cold front comes in mid day, it can be then too. Also, being windy accelerates it because the waves have more surface area than a still pool. Think of all the ^^^^^^^^^^^ VS -------------- that's alot more potential heat transfer with waves.

Aurgh! I didn't even THINK of that!
I thought it was the other way around.

I thought the air temperature had to be WARMER than the pool (i.e., to heat it up), but you're right - I'm wrong. Duh. <slaps side of head>

It's like "boiling" where the water is hotter than the air so it boils into the air, I guess.
So, yeah, it's gonna happen at night. And whenever it's windy of course (lowers the vapor pressure).

I remember some stuff from college chemistry... but not much.
But thanks for knocking some sense into me.

I was thinking backward.
Thanks for that correction (you can always correct me as the end result is what matters).

 

[Newdude]

It's like "boiling" where the water is hotter than the air so it boils into the air, I guess.

Or a steaming bowl of soup. My pool was said steaming bowl of soup when I woke up this morning. And I lost 1/3 inch.

If the wind blew on my soup........ oh boy.

 

[godwinson]

The bubblers are attached to the pool returns, the main filter pump drives them with pool water. You could definitely do something similar with a good sump pump.

I was serious about helping you with chemistry without the kit. Sorry. Maybe others will. I'm not an expert on chemistry anyway...

I have a degree in microbiology but then I ended up working in a different field (supporting hospital equipment) and retired about 15 years ago, so you could say my chemistry books are from so long ago they were written on clay tablets, but I do have the same basic biochem, organic, and inorganic chemistry background that is decades old but some of it probably still works that an average person might have.

In microbiology classes they mostly taught us how to IDENTIFY & GROW bacteria, protozoa, and fungi and how to grow tissue cultures in virology - not so much algae though - as I don't think we ever had a lab on them - and certainly not how to kill them (they kill 'em all with an autoclave - which - if you've ever seen one - makes you wonder if anything will kill 'em 'cuz even soil bacteria can live in boiling water and even a lowly tardigrade can survive in space so it ain't easy to make things sterile).

My most fun class though was FOOD MICROBIOLOGY - where it's fun to know that most people think they eat sterile food but it turns out it's not even close. We live in a pea soup of bacteria... and they'll get us all in the end.

Working in a hospital sales supply company taught me a lot though about how the marketing markets garbage and how the salesmen preach garbage but then the poor customer is just trying to get the expensive things to work. All that fancy stuff that drove up the price doesn't make the tool better sometimes... just sexier. And more expensive. Even in classes I was always tuned to things people said which didn't make any real sense, where, for example, my first microbio professor told us on the first day that "Listerine kills millions of germs on contact... so does spitting just once on the hot sidewalk for all the good it really does" (because they double every 20 minutes and exponential growth has a way of catching up fast).

The point is a lot of things "sound" great, in theory, but in reality it's often a different beast altogether in the math (which is kind of why if a pool store sales clerk tells me my water is gonna "feel silkier", I'm not inclined to believe him unless I can measure it and unless it really matters in the end).

If you can't measure it, you don't know anything about it.

Funny story... we visited wine and beer manufacturers and the main thing they always did was ZERO RESEARCH. I was amazed. But then they told me why, which was that the LAST thing they want is to CHANGE the taste of their beverage. It has to stay the same... much like pool chemistry I guess... (And, guess what "beachwood chips" look like when they come off the truck to be dumped into the Budweiser beer vats?)

And no, just like sausage, you do NOT want to know what beer looks like when it's still frothing in the open vat!

 

[godwinson]

The bubblers are attached to the pool returns, the main filter pump drives them with pool water. You could definitely do something similar with a good sump pump.

I have the 120VAC HF gray water sump pump which will pump water up fifteen or twenty feet through a two inch hose which I can snap a photo of that should do the trick. It's what I had used to empty out the pool. It emptied the entire pool in a day elapsed time where most of the time was spent trying to keep it under water as it has a float that kept turning it off when the water level got low. That pump is amazing though. It can suck a golf ball through a garden hose.

I can use it to PUSH water out, and, come to think of it, if I ever do a heater (which I think you've talked me out of), it could be the pump for the job.

 

[godwinson]

The plugs they sell for drip irrigation are barbed and might work. Kinda cheap.
That stuff is meant to be trimmed to fit, so it can work with any size/shape pool. It'll fit as perfectly as you're able to cut it.

Thanks for that advice, where I have an extra panel or two that they replaced and just threw under the rest to test it out on.
I'm thinking that they must sell eraser material, about the diameter of a pencil erasure, in bulk. That might work also.

As you are probably aware, the black tubular plumbing material is pretty stiff in these things. It doesn't give all that much. The plug is what has to give but also hold tightly.
Thanks for that advice. My mind can be changed on anything as long as the logic is sound.