Lower CYA levels

ccloys

Member
Sep 16, 2021
9
Fishers, IN
Pool Size
18600
Surface
Vinyl
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
CircuPool Core-35
Hi! New, first-time pool owner. Short story is I was duped with Permasalt, found TFP and saved our pool. Thank you!

The main thing that drew me here is the scientific approach that is used for the methodology. With that what are the thoughts on this article which calls for CYA levels to never go above 20ppm (even saying to keep ot at 15ppm so that it doesn't go over the 20 mark)?

 
The main thing that drew me here is the scientific approach that is used for the methodology.
Same for me. This place is awesome.

With that what are the thoughts on this article which calls for CYA levels to never go above 20ppm
Sure, I'll bite. This article's advice simply doesn't apply, for a number of reasons.

TLDR: You could definitely try it out, it'd probably work, and it'd be great if you reported back with your experience as well as your total chlorine cost. To be very specific, I'm talking ONLY about keeping your CYA at 20ppm. If I had to guess, it'd probably end up costing you about 3x more than a typical TFPer with your size pool, and that's not counting the extra time and testing supplies cost. Municipal code enforcement, pool companies and commercial pool operators stubbornly rely on a number of old habits that have not aligned with common sense or science for quite some time. This is a commercial pool operator who teaches classes on commercial pool operation, writing an article about commercial pool operation on a website for commercial pool operators. Doesn't apply to backyard pools.

This is not an exhaustive list, and I don't consider myself an expert.
  • There is a lot of "Pool Maintenance Mumbo-Jumbo" around CYA that was not based on good science carried across the years. One of our more knowledgeable members explained it easily in a thread where a member was asking about how EU countries also require lower CYA. That institutional knowledge, even after proven incorrect, has apparently been stubborn to vanish from the common knowledge. For a benign example, look at how many people blindly tromp into pool stores and spend thousands per season and still have green pools. A more serious example is folks on City Councils and Health Departments aren't experts on pools, but they need to set some kind of standard for keeping citizens safe. Who do they turn to for answers to set policy on chemical levels? The pool experts, who may have simply learned from the last guy, who learned from the last, and etcetera. "This has worked in the field for our company / industry / etc" is not a valid substitute for science or even simple verification. More on this later, because it gets to your question.
  • This is an opinion article written by an educator / operator who teaches a course for professional pool operators. I'm certain he's forgotten more about pools than I'll ever know. However, the vast majority of TFP pools are residential, and as such, not subject to the liability, inspections, bather load, budget, staffing, maintenance regimen, etcetera that commercial and community pools are. The basic chemistry doesn't change, but it's just a completely different animal. More on this later, because it gets to your question.
  • He is writing this article based on a number of assumptions: A commercial pool, subject to health code min/max levels, a rather bizarre claim that 0 PPM CYA would be ideal. He leans heavily on ORP, which I don't know enough about to comment on, but he also recommends keeping pH lower than our recommended levels as a blanket statement without addressing calcium and alkalinity levels. This could lead to extensive damage to plaster and equipment, and we do not recommend it. I'm sure the database of tests here at TFP would easily falsify his claims about keeping pH and CYA low in order to keep combined chlorines at zero. Our recommended pH and CYA are significantly higher and we can easily prove that our pools are bacteria and algae free. Maybe it isn't "all about ORP" like he claims?! Anecdotally I've not once smelled like chlorine from my pool like I frequently did in commercial pools, even swimming immediately after long sweaty days working in the yard or garage. How strange that... my pool consistently has what'd be considered an illegally high amount of CYA and chlorine if it was a municipal pool. And crystal clear, sparkling, non chemical smelling, silky, non itchy, non eye burning or suit bleaching water... hrmmmm....
  • I absolutely 100% agree with everything he says about dichlor and trichlor. Except maybe the last part about how it "sticks to stuff"... I don't know about that... I thought an acid was dissolved in the water itself and were just little charg-ey floaty bois (and gals?) Again, he's a pool expert, I have no direct observation that'd lead me not to believe that was true.
  • If you like, this would actually be a very good experiment, but let's discuss some of those things from above. I assume we'll be talking about *your actual personal use only pool at your actual house*, not just some theoretical one or something subject to health inspector / liability issues. You can definitely try it, it'll probably work, and for science and curiosity we'd love to see the results and the receipts for how much you spent on chlorine for the duration of the exercise. Homeboy in his article says, "Do not pay attention to the higher retention rates at higher CYA concentrations." I had a thought he's not paying for chlorine out of his own pocket... I dang sure pay attention to that retention rate, and I don't even buy chlorine anymore either now that I've got a SWG.
    • Your actual pool isn't subject to min / max FC levels like commercial pools are. This is good and actually gives a little more wiggle room so you can actually enjoy your pool instead of constantly dosing chemicals and testing water. Your pool water is safe to swim from the minimum FC level on the FC/CYA Levels chart and all the way up to the maximum, or SLAM level. Commercial pools have staff for monitoring that. They test periodically through the day, and I'd assume they have chemical injection systems in the equipment rooms that take care of dosing auto or semiautomatically. Some of the advice he's giving might be to help commercial pool operators maintain correct balance and "safe to swim" water while being subjected to rather arbitrary rules at the municipal level. I've seen guidelines that say "shock pool to 10ppm FC" or "Maintain 1-4ppm FC" but also allow a CYA level of 20-50ppm ... This is clearly incorrect and actually makes municipal pools LESS safe. This article you linked confirms this: FC levels must change along with CYA levels, otherwise an unsanitary condition may occur. Our TFP recommended numbers are similarly aligned; 10ppmFC is ONLY the shock level at 20ppm FC. A municipal pool could be in compliance with all codes at CYA 50, raise their FC to 10ppm per the regulations, and be only at HALF the FC required to actually shock the pool. That's really scary and I maybe never want to get into another pool ever that isn't a TFP pool. In that respect, the basic premise of the article is correct... the only way to follow all the rules and actually get 10ppm FC shock levels in the pool is to keep CYA below 20.
    • In your pool at your house, at CYA 20, you're going to need to keep at least 2ppm FC otherwise you'll be at risk for unsanitary water that'll also likely go green. Many TFP pools lose 2 PPM FC to sunlight a day (~8 hours) at 40-70ppm CYA. A 20PPM CYA pool is going to burn off astronomical amounts of FC while the sun is on it, and you haven't even put a human in the pool yet, which burns more FC. Let's be kind and say it's double the loss. Quick math: 2PPM sanitary minimum + 4-6PPM sunlight loss per day (0.5ppm / hr loss OR MORE) => you gotta get up every day before the sun comes up and make sure your pool is at 6-8ppm FC just to get the pool thru the day safely with no algae or disease. Or swimmers. Or you'll have to test and dose the pool multiple times during the day. "Okeydoke kids, out of the pool for the next half hour while this mixes in," Said the most popular Dad in the universe. Or buy a machine to do it for you. One couldn't expect a SWG reliably to keep up with that much sunlight loss. It's important to note that it's not safe to swim at SLAM levels, so your "safe zone" between not enough chlorine and too much is MAYBE 4ppm, and that's with the generous estimate of sunlight loss. Adding 5ppm per day to a pool your size looks an awful lot like a gallon of 10% bleach. Every. Day.
    • Or, just run your pool at 40-50ppm CYA for a manually chlorinated pool and spend a third of the money and time stressing about chemistry and calculating dosages and yelling at the kids to get out of the pool.
 
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Thanks for that TexEdmund (*edit NOT Telemundo, stupid autocorrect)! That's what I was looking for. I wasn't trying to offend anyone and have spent the past week getting my pool to TFP levels. The article seemed (to this layman) to be not the *do this b/c that's the way it's done* stuff and was well documented.

You're explanation was awesome. Thank you for taking the time to address it so thoroughly!
 
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You betcha. (I was like, Telemundo?!) Thanks for the opportunity. We're all here to learn, and I (like you) learn by asking questions. I also learn by making mistakes, and I learn by teaching others. There's something special about this site: if you stick around, you'll get the answers you needed, and before too long you might decide to donate some money to the site and help other folks when they show up needing help. The PoolMath app alone has paid for itself countless times already. Dealing with my pool chems went from being unmanageably complicated to excruciatingly boring ... In about 6 weeks. I was right where you were more or less in mid June. We had bought 2 solar shock copper electrodes and were dumping all manner of potions and elixirs in the pool with no noticeable help and nobody to explain that with a CYA above 100, there was simply no way to have a safe, clean pool and everything else we were doing was a waste of time and money. I hemmed and hawed and split hairs and then just did the right thing and haven't once thought about going back to the pool store / internet superstition ways.

One of the things that helps me understand some of the "professional industry advice" is my career as an audio engineer. There's a saying that goes "There's no free lunch." Every change I make over here will affect things somewhere else, so we experiment, verify, measure, remain willing to change. Want a loudspeaker there? Okay, what do I trade off for that, because the flower lady at church just put a poinsettia in front of it. Want twice as many microphones onstage? That's going to affect how loud it'll get before things destabilize and feedback ruins everyone's time. Twist the wrong knob in front of the wrong person and your job and ability to get more work might be at risk. There are countless websites and magazines and equipment vendors and famous industry influencers that claim to have the cure for any number of easily preventable issues, and so much of it is complete superstition, buzz-words and alchemy... just like with pools.

City councils set noise level regulations for outside concerts that sometimes are impossible to be in compliance with, and sometimes they're extremely favorable. I have direct experience with this: One town I occasionally worked in was tired of the multiple noise complaints a week from residents from concerts and car stereos. They considered a motion to cut the allowable noise in the code by half: from ~100dB to 50 without two critical pieces of information: the dBSPL scale is logarithmic, and the a-weighted measurement they use largely ignores low frequency energy, which is the hardest to control and rattles the picture frames on your neighbor's walls. Cutting 100 dBa to 50 is clearly not "half as loud." In real life that's basically going from riding a commercial lawnmower to a quiet room. Bad idea. Cooler heads prevailed and the change wasn't adopted.

On the other side, I worked as a city employee in a town with a big summertime music festival. Since there were stages outside on city land, our department was in charge of measuring and enforcement of the city noise regulations, which were very specifically worded: an average level over several minutes a set distance from the source, a-weighted. Very reasonable. One night the headliner was Bootsy Collins, former bass player for James Brown and Parliament Funkadelic. A notoriously loud and raucous show and one of my "bucket list" must-see bands. They were legally in compliance the entire night because even though they definitely exceeded the max SPL at times during most songs, the average levels over time were much lower. The hardest part of that shift was standing next to the sound board and trying not to dance while sneaking glances at my handheld sound meter. But when you have an employee badge and a radio and a sound meter and a clipboard, slap a scowl on your face and you can basically go where you want at a music festival... :ROFLMAO:
 
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