Jandy Aqualink RS16 system - adding booster pump for solar to optimize variable speed pump upgrade

[pgrovetom]

Thanks! That sounds promising. I'll investigate. I should have no difficulty providing whatever signal it needs and derive it from the "solar pump" control 24VAC output that's not used. I believe this corresponds to the JVA on solar. The Sta_Rite pump itself is in good shape as it was replaced less than 5 years ago. So what you are saying is this Vgreen motor can simply replace the existing Sta-Rite motor leaving the pump. Do you run the filter 24hrs/day? It seems a shame to run it during peak PG&E rates in the summer evenings. So I think you are saying run the motor all the time but program it so when the JVA solar signal is present, it shifts to the faster rate I determine for optimizing my solar flow. Can it be programmed for any rate for the 2 priorities suggested? Is there some reason it would not be set up to run at all times except 3-8 weekdays due to peak rates.

And its only about $500 and easy to install... Excellent idea! thanks.

The existing pump:
View attachment 177584

Got it. Looks pretty good. seems pretty straightforward. It even says its compatible with my Sta-Rite Max E Pro so I presume its just unbolting the Sta-Rite motor, bolting on the V Green, hooking up permanent 240VAC, building my Jandy output to Vgreen circuit for the solar JVA signal, determine my best speeds for pool filtering and solar and programming it. Is there some reason it couldn't be programmed to start at say 11PM ( or so) on slow speed and run slow all night on off peak rates until my jandy control input came on around 9-10AM till about 4PM ( when it was sunny and hot) but shut itself off when the PG&E rates were high and the solar was not working at around 4PM. Then come back on each night. It wouldn't save much. The filter time flow would need to be high enough for my cartridge filter to achieve adequate pressure.

 

[MSchutzer]

I have a fairly small pool so I only run the pump 5 hours a day. One hour with the solar and cleaner on, and four hours with just the solar on. That provides plenty of heat from April through Early October and at 45 gpm average it moves 13.5k gallons per day. In the winter I still run 5 hours a day, but a lot more of the time is at a slower rate when the solar is not running due to poor weather.

You could set up your pump for two schedules, a limited number of hours in the day to get your needed solar heating, and then a second off peak schedule that runs for however number of hours you want to run at night at the slower speed.

It looks like you have a Cface motor so you would need the ECM16CU model of the Vgreen motor I think? I see a 1.65 on the label on your pump, is the the SFHP? If so then the Vgreen 1.65 has the same SFHP of your current pump. It should in theory bolt right on where your current motor is.

The control panel sticks up a little above the motor and has a flip up lid to get to the keyboard panel, you will only need to use this to initially program the four speeds, it's had to tell how much clearance you have to the plumbing running over the motor. Here's the brochure on the Vgreen, it has dimensions on it so you can check your clearances.

https://api.mssassetworks.com/assets/REG/download/MCSSP18078E

Mark

 

[MSchutzer]

Just saw your latest post, you already figured out what I just said in my last post.

And yes that is the correct control wiring. For mine I just used a 4 pair CAT5 cable connecting one wire of each pair to the +12v terminal and the other wire to one of the input terminals. On the Aqualink end I connected each wire pair to the appropriate relay terminals. As long as you understand the priority nature of each input you can get it to do what you even if multiple inputs are triggered at the same time.

Mark

 

[pgrovetom]

I have a fairly small pool so I only run the pump 5 hours a day. One hour with the solar and cleaner on, and four hours with just the solar on. That provides plenty of heat from April through Early October and at 45 gpm average it moves 13.5k gallons per day. In the winter I still run 5 hours a day, but a lot more of the time is at a slower rate when the solar is not running due to poor weather.

You could set up your pump for two schedules, a limited number of hours in the day to get your needed solar heating, and then a second off peak schedule that runs for however number of hours you want to run at night at the slower speed.

It looks like you have a Cface motor so you would need the ECM16CU model of the Vgreen motor I think? I see a 1.65 on the label on your pump, is the the SFHP? If so then the Vgreen 1.65 has the same SFHP of your current pump. It should in theory bolt right on where your current motor is.

The control panel sticks up a little above the motor and has a flip up lid to get to the keyboard panel, you will only need to use this to initially program the four speeds, it's had to tell how much clearance you have to the plumbing running over the motor. Here's the brochure on the Vgreen, it has dimensions on it so you can check your clearances.

https://api.mssassetworks.com/assets/REG/download/MCSSP18078E

Mark

My pump is a Pentair Sta-Rite P6EA6F-206L Max-E-Pro Energy Efficient Single Speed Up Rated Pool and Spa Pump, 1-1/2-Horsepower Pumps, 16/8-full load amperes, 115/230-Volt, 1.10-SF, 1.65-SFHP. Measures 30-1/2-inch length by 17-inch height by 13-1/4-inch width.

It appears the ECM16SQU has the 1.65 rating like the Sta-Rite with a square flange that matches the Sta-Rite flange. I have the manual. It claims its compatible with my Sta-Rite Max E Pro. I'll double check the bolt position and dimensions. Did you see any value in the Vlink wireless interface. It appears to allow monitoring and programming from a smart phone. The outlet port pipe will be close just above the programming interface and might interfere , but I could always raise the pipe if needed.

I took a look at the control box above the motor and I think I will need to change where the bend appears in my outlet pipe but that shouldn't be difficult. Otherwise I think it will make opening the controller and programming impossible once installed. No big deal.

Based on my reading so far, it looks good. I think I'll call the supplier I found for $487 and ask a few questions and order it. Its exactly why I found this forum and I'm happy I don't need to try and upgrade my Jandy Aqualink and buy a $1200 pump I can't control as is.. This is great. thanks. This is the kind of thing that can only be found by asking questions and being lucky enough someone else needed to do the exact same thing. Thanks! I'll let you know if it works out. Do you use any other Century add ons like the wireless or I also saw some kind of automation interface. But I think it works as is.

 

[MSchutzer]

I looked at the Vlink control panel but I really couldn't see a use for it. It does allow you to program custom speeds different from the control panel, but that really isn't necessary as the control panel speeds go in roughly 9 to 10% steps which is plenty fine enough control. The Vlink panel also lets you change the priming speed from 2600 rpm to whatever you like, but it's a lot of money for little added functionality. If you were setting up a timed schedule tied to a real time clock and you didn't have automation then maybe it would be useful.

As for the automation interface I really don't see the purpose of that. It provides four digital inputs and some trim pots on a board and I guess you can adjust the pot for each input and select four custom speeds? But you have four digital inputs native on the motor and the control panel to set the speed of each input so I really don't see the purpose at all for the automation interface, I guess it's just another gimmick to sell.

If you do read through the manual they do a lot of talking about setting up the pump to run on a 24 hour schedule and programming the wanted speed steps in increments of 2 hours. All that goes out the window when you use the digital inputs as the programmed time on the control panel is over-ridden by the digital inputs. In fact you want to press the stop button on the control panel so that the 24 hour schedule doesn't run at all, the digital inputs provide all the on and off timing as needed.

Mark

 

[pgrovetom]

I looked at both the Vlink control panel but I really couldn't see a use for it. It does allow you to program custom speeds different from the control panel, but that really isn't necessary as the control panel speeds go in roughly 9 to 10% steps which is plenty fine enough control. The Vlink panel also lets you change the priming speed from 2600 rpm to whatever you like, but it's a lot of money for little added functionality. If you were setting up a timed schedule tied to a real time clock and you didn't have automation then maybe it would be useful.

As for the automation interface I really don't see the purpose of that. It provides four digital inputs and some trim pots on a board and I guess you can adjust the pot for each input and select four custom speeds? But you have four digital inputs native on the motor and the control panel to set the speed of each input so I really don't see the purpose at all for the automation interface, I guess it's just another gimmick to sell.

If you do read through the manual they do a lot of talking about setting up the pump to run on a 24 hour schedule and programming the wanted speed steps in increments of 2 hours. All that goes out the window when you use the digital inputs as the programmed time on the control panel is over-ridden by the digital inputs. In fact you want to press the stop button on the control panel so that the 24 hour schedule doesn't run at all, the digital inputs provide all the on and off timing as needed.

Mark

I'm so convinced, I just ordered it with a seal kit. thanks again...

 

[MSchutzer]

Glad to help!

Mark

 

[MSchutzer]

By the way the simplest way to interface to the 24vac solar output is to just add another Jandy relay. That keeps the 24vac isolated from the pump input circuitry and eliminates any possible ground potential differences.

Mark

 

[Dirk]

I think you've gotten all your questions answered. Or answered them yourself!

And I think you figured out the following, but if not:

The controller will handle all the temperature analyzing and ramp up the pump and turn the actuator at the same time. All you have to do is program the Green pump for the two speeds you want to use and then trigger the speeds with the relays and circuits you've figured out how to use.

You don't need to have the Green running 24/7, you only need to power it 24/7. So you'd wire the pump directly to a breaker, and wire the triggers to your automation. You'd schedule the controller to trigger the Green during the day, shy of your PG&E peak, and then program the controller to run solar during those same hours. The controller will take care of the rest, and everything will shut down during peak time, and at night. (Or whatever you program.)

You don't want to circumvent the controller's solar control, and just run the solar system non-stop, through cool times and cloudy skys. Solar panels are very effective heat-exchangers, and they'll suck the heat out of your pool just as efficiently as they'll warm it up. Do whatcha gotta do to make use of the controller's "solar smarts."

Regarding the flow meter, keep in mind that, with very few exceptions, flow through the plumbing is constant. So you don't have to mount your flow meter only on the solar loop, it can be just about anywhere. I have mine in front of my filter, so I can get flow readings whether the solar is engaged or not. I use that for keeping an eye on the filter and to optimize other gear: like my SWG and my vac.

FlowVis (the one I have) sells a retrofit version that fits on a Jandy check valve body. So if you happen to have one, you can swap out the Jandy guts for the FlowVis guts and save a little dough (as long at the Jandy check valve is somewhere along the path of the water that goes through the panels). A FlowVis is a check valve, so you won't lose that functionality.

Keep us posted with whatever you come up with...

 

[pgrovetom]

Got it. My thinking was if I need to raise the pump output pipe so the Vgreen control box has room, I would just put the flow meter in that new pipe stretch. That's where my Jandy pool temperature probe is located. That way I can monitor flow in both JVAC solar and no solar positions. I shouldn't have any difficulty coming up with an isolated interface between the Jandy "solar pump" spare output and the Vgreen pump. This approach is simple and I like that. Trying to use a complex pump with its own controller and trying to upgrade an old Jandy Aqualink or repace it with a Pentair system is frought with risk or expensive or both. This Vgreen motor just does it own thing once I swap it to fixed power wiring off the Jandy relay, determine the 2 best flow rates/speeds and its programmed and as I asked in a long ago post, I just tell it via a simple signal from my Jandy when to go into solar higher flow mode. Not much to go wrong and the pump with shipping and seal kit was just over $400 and will arrive UPS in a week or so. Easy to test and I'll be sure I didn't break anything my Jandy is already doing well. When the day comes to upgrade my Jandy, it shouldn't be difficult to tweak the interface to whatever new system I have. In the process, I've learned quite a bit. My Jandy has worked for 20 years and I just change the programming so why mess with it now.

 

[MSchutzer]

One other thing you will likely need to order online is a 1/2" NPT cable gland such as below to seal up the control cable connection on the Vgreen. The Vgreen just comes with a plug to fill the hole so you have to replace that when using the control connection.

Amazon.com: Exqutoo 1/2 Npt,Nylon Plastic Connectors with Lock Nut and Gaskets IP68 Waterproof Adjustable 6-12mm Cord Gland Cable Gland(12 Pack) : Industrial & Scientific

Buy Exqutoo 1/2 Npt,Nylon Plastic Connectors with Lock Nut and Gaskets IP68 Waterproof Adjustable 6-12mm Cord Gland Cable Gland(12 Pack): Accessories - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

There are tons of these glands on Amazon, this is just one example. While all over Amazon they are hard to find in at the local hardware store or Home Depot.

 

[Dirk]

Got it. My thinking was if I need to raise the pump output pipe so the Vgreen control box has room, I would just put the flow meter in that new pipe stretch. That's where my Jandy pool temperature probe is located. That way I can monitor flow in both JVAC solar and no solar positions. I shouldn't have any difficulty coming up with an isolated interface between the Jandy "solar pump" spare output and the Vgreen pump. This approach is simple and I like that. Trying to use a complex pump with its own controller and trying to upgrade an old Jandy Aqualink or repace it with a Pentair system is frought with risk or expensive or both. This Vgreen motor just does it own thing once I swap it to fixed power wiring off the Jandy relay, determine the 2 best flow rates/speeds and its programmed and as I asked in a long ago post, I just tell it via a simple signal from my Jandy when to go into solar higher flow mode. Not much to go wrong and the pump with shipping and seal kit was just over $400 and will arrive UPS in a week or so. Easy to test and I'll be sure I didn't break anything my Jandy is already doing well. When the day comes to upgrade my Jandy, it shouldn't be difficult to tweak the interface to whatever new system I have. In the process, I've learned quite a bit. My Jandy has worked for 20 years and I just change the programming so why mess with it now.

I'm with ya. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

 

[pgrovetom]

I think you've gotten all your questions answered. Or answered them yourself!

And I think you figured out the following, but if not:

The controller will handle all the temperature analyzing and ramp up the pump and turn the actuator at the same time. All you have to do is program the Green pump for the two speeds you want to use and then trigger the speeds with the relays and circuits you've figured out how to use.

You don't need to have the Green running 24/7, you only need to power it 24/7. So you'd wire the pump directly to a breaker, and wire the triggers to your automation. You'd schedule the controller to trigger the Green during the day, shy of your PG&E peak, and then program the controller to run solar during those same hours. The controller will take care of the rest, and everything will shut down during peak time, and at night. (Or whatever you program.)

You don't want to circumvent the controller's solar control, and just run the solar system non-stop, through cool times and cloudy skys. Solar panels are very effective heat-exchangers, and they'll suck the heat out of your pool just as efficiently as they'll warm it up. Do whatcha gotta do to make use of the controller's "solar smarts."

Regarding the flow meter, keep in mind that, with very few exceptions, flow through the plumbing is constant. So you don't have to mount your flow meter only on the solar loop, it can be just about anywhere. I have mine in front of my filter, so I can get flow readings whether the solar is engaged or not. I use that for keeping an eye on the filter and to optimize other gear: like my SWG and my vac.

FlowVis (the one I have) sells a retrofit version that fits on a Jandy check valve body. So if you happen to have one, you can swap out the Jandy guts for the FlowVis guts and save a little dough (as long at the Jandy check valve is somewhere along the path of the water that goes through the panels). A FlowVis is a check valve, so you won't lose that functionality.

Keep us posted with whatever you come up with...

My pump output will show both flow rates since its flow is optionally routed via the solar loop based on the Jandy solar JVC. So I'll install the flow meter on the pipe stretch I have to move that already has the water temperature sensor in it. Then I can check the rate of flow through the filter only or through the solar plus filter adjusting the Vgreen RPM until I get flow rates that seems best.

I received the pump and reviewed the manual again and I don't see why I can't just use my own Jandy controller timing to simply run the Vgreen without even using its timer, just its Step RPM settings. I really can't think of a reason why I need more than 2 speeds once I install the flow meter. Then I can see what RPM the solar and non-solar filtering desire as a flow rate based on my plumbing and head. But I'm not sure based on the manual whether I can program it for being stopped based on its timer and then use the digital steps to run at 2 speeds. Any idea?

I think I could program the Vgreen controller Step 1 to always come on at a low rate at say 8AM ( before solar is usable) and then use my Jandy interface controlled Step 2 and Step 3 to time how long in the day I want it to run from my Jandy either on its pump timing or solar timing and heat. So I would set the Vgreen to run Step 1 at say low RPM1 at 8AM through 10AM and Step 2 from my Jandy pump control would extend it from 9AM at RPM2 to later afternoon and Step 3 would override it if the solar pump signal and JVC operated to highest RPM3. Does that work?

I'm building an interface board using a quad relay board I had from Ebay to drive the Step digital inputs, a 24VAC CT transformer I also had, a buck converter to produce +5V from the 24VAC and I just order some opto-couplers from Amazon to sense the 24VDC Jandy filter pump signal and solar pump signal. So when my Jandy timing turns on the Vgreen pump via the opto-coupler sense and relay control of Step 1 digital input, the pump starts up at my optimized RPM. Then when the Jandy solar 24VDC pump output comes ( solar on and heat available based on sensors) on its sensed by the opto-coupler which in turn controls the Step 2 relay. I'm building a 4 opto-coupler sense plus 4 relays providing the 24VAC output to the Step digital inputs from my transformer rather than the Jandy 24VAC ( its seems safer as its isolated). But I can't think of a reason why I would need the 4th Step circuits ( override) but just in case I'll have it there. Can you or anyone think of a reason for more than 2 flow rates (RPM settings?

I have multiple spare AuxB outputs that I could use to control Override that can be fully timed by the Jandy controller but I cannot think of a case besides maybe "stop". Ideas?

 

[MSchutzer]

A couple of thoughts,

Yes you can run the Vgreen via it’s digital inputs even when the Vgreen controller is stopped.

I guess you could come up with a hybrid system where you use both the timing of the Vgreen controller to start a cycle and then use your solar relay closure to speed it up, but the downside of this is that the Vgreen controller doesn’t contain a real time clock. It has a 24 hour timer that will repeat the run cycle of programmed speeds every 24 hours, but that is initialized when you press the start button. Any time you loose AC power to the pump it will start back up right away at speed 1 when the power comes back on. So your 24 hour start time resets to when the power comes back on.

To get a real time clock you need to add their Vlink accessory box or use something else (digital inputs) controlled by a real time programmable clock (your Aqualink RS).

So I guess I’m pitching to not even bother with the control panel timer functions and leave the Vgreen controller stopped, just using the digital inputs which override the start/stop function anyway. Just program speed 1 (slower) and speed 2 (faster solar speed) for what you end up needing and let the digital inputs and prioritization do the rest. The run time you program on the control panel for each of these steps doesn’t matter and can be zero if you want.

Repurpose the filter-pump relay contact to control speed 1 and then use your interface from the solar relay 24 vac drive to trigger digital input 2. Use the Jandy system which is fully programmable to control your overall run times.

You may have said this but the way I read it you were describing some hybrid system using both the Vgreen controller timing and the Jandy’s solar relay to trigger the faster speeds. That would work except for the lack of a real time clock in the Vgreen controller.

I hope that makes sense,

Mark

edit: After re-reading your post I think I misinterpreted what you said. I now think you said what I described above, controlling the timing via the Jandy system, and I agree with that approach.

 

[Dirk]

I glazed over most of those two posts, as I can't contribute at all to DIY controllers.

Putting your flow meter in a pipe that is common to all modes, be they filter, solar, heater, spa, cleaner, whatever, is the way to go. Might as well get your money's worth out of the thing. I think I mentioned that flow rate is constant throughout a pool plumbing system (with only a few exceptions, none of which you have), so you'll get accurate readings no matter where in the loop the meter lives.

I hope you can get your controller to do its thing. Good luck with all that. Please post your results!

 

[pgrovetom]

A couple of thoughts,

Yes you can run the Vgreen via it’s digital inputs even when the Vgreen controller is stopped.

I guess you could come up with a hybrid system where you use both the timing of the Vgreen controller to start a cycle and then use your solar relay closure to speed it up, but the downside of this is that the Vgreen controller doesn’t contain a real time clock. It has a 24 hour timer that will repeat the run cycle of programmed speeds every 24 hours, but that is initialized when you press the start button. Any time you loose AC power to the pump it will start back up right away at speed 1 when the power comes back on. So your 24 hour start time resets to when the power comes back on.

To get a real time clock you need to add their Vlink accessory box or use something else (digital inputs) controlled by a real time programmable clock (your Aqualink RS).

So I guess I’m pitching to not even bother with the control panel timer functions and leave the Vgreen controller stopped, just using the digital inputs which override the start/stop function anyway. Just program speed 1 (slower) and speed 2 (faster solar speed) for what you end up needing and let the digital inputs and prioritization do the rest. The run time you program on the control panel for each of these steps doesn’t matter and can be zero if you want.

Repurpose the filter-pump relay contact to control speed 1 and then use your interface from the solar relay 24 vac drive to trigger digital input 2. Use the Jandy system which is fully programmable to control your overall run times.

You may have said this but the way I read it you were describing some hybrid system using both the Vgreen controller timing and the Jandy’s solar relay to trigger the faster speeds. That would work except for the lack of a real time clock in the Vgreen controller.

I hope that makes sense,

Mark

edit: After re-reading your post I think I misinterpreted what you said. I now think you said what I described above, controlling the timing via the Jandy system, and I agree with that approach.

Yes it makes sense. I was hoping to just use the Jandy controller via the existing filter pump relay or its driver to start the main slower filter cycle based on the Jandy real time clock I can set in the house. Then when the solar relay 24VDC comes on, I kick it into the next step and it speeds up for a solar cycle. If its overcast, the solar relay never comes on and the Jandy filter pump timing runs the whole cycle. I was worried that I might not be able to have the Vgreen stopped and run only on the 2 digital step inputs.

I have extra control relays ( since I already had the Ebay Quad relay board) just in case I decide I need to use the other 2 dital inputs. I'll just put 2-3 opto-coupler sensors rather than just one. I'll probably just disconnect the 240VAC from the existing filter pump relay, wire the Vgreen to its own breaker and use the existing relay to deliver 24VAC ( from my transformer for complete isolation) to the Step 1 ( or 2) digital input. I'm not sure if I will come up with a reason for running a third speed so I'm building it into my interface just in case. My Jandy has 4 spare Aux outputs I can program for anything I want. If the Jandy clock would allow time of year control, I could program a whole year but it doesn't. Not sure why since its got the date and year.

thanks again... Its nice to have a second competent brain checking for issues.

 

[Dirk]

My controller's solar algorithm is capable of turning on and off the solar heater multiple times a day, dozens if necessary, to accommodate variable weather conditions (like a party cloudy day). I've watched it do that once in a while. I'm sure your controller's algorithm will do likewise. So the interface you're planning will need to be able to do the same (ramp up pump speed to match any number of solar heat requests).

I think most pools could get by just fine with two speeds. Planning for a third is prudent. My setup uses more, but doesn't really need to:
- filter speed (1600 RPM, for normal operation for filter and SWG and general skimming)
- cleaner speed (2300 RPM, for a suction-side vac)
- on-demand high-speed skimming speed (2600 RPM, to "polish" the surface when needed)
- solar heater speed (2200 RPM)
- freeze mode (900 RPM)
- standby speed (400 RPM, for after-hours solar heating stand by)

I could get by just fine with 1600 and, say, 2300...

And I really only need 1600 to satisfy my stubborn SWG. That could be lower if it was just for filtering and skimming.