World's Dumbest Spa Plumbing Questions?

[PopcornSally]

I'm super embarrassed to even ask for help on this because I'm sure we made some extremely stupid mistakes when putting together our cedar hot tub kit. The manufacturer left a lot to be desired in their instructions and now there is a problem with the operation of the jets. I'll try to explain...

It's a ~465-gallon tub with 5 "regular size" jets and 1 "turbojet." The turbojet works well--it has its own air intake opening that I can hear sucking air. The other 5 jets have never worked well and I can't hear air being sucked into the other air intake that's attached to all 5 of them. When I emptied the tub and refilled it just below the jet level, I turned the pump on high and the 5 jets blasted harder than they ever had before. I could also hear the air going into the air intake. But once the water level was full they went back to weak and not sucking air.

Of the regular-sized jets, we have 2 sets of stacked jets and 1 by itself. I'm pretty sure it's our stupid plumbing that is messing things up but I need to understand how to do it right before we start cutting things.

Here are the hilarious photos of the plumbing done by two people who are smart in other areas of life, I swear.

The small hose is supposed to be for air and the thick hose is for water.



My main question is about jets that are on different levels, i.e. one above the other. Do they each have to have their own air intake tube or can they share off one main air line? Here's a diagram I found from another manufacturer that shows a similar setup to ours but they have each row of jets with its own air intake.



Does this make sense to anyone? I've searched and searched the internet to try to figure it out and I'm still stumped... Don't laugh! OK, you can laugh a little because I definitely am.

Thanks for any help you guys can give us!!!

 

[Yuckypuck]

Can you provide a picture of the pump & heater layout plus if there was a schematic drawing, in the kit instruction packet, of the plumbing take a picture of it also.

 

[PopcornSally]

Here's a drawing of how the equipment is set up and a diagram of the plumbing. You'll notice they don't show how to do it with jets at different levels although the instructions state several times you can position them that way. In case it's not clear on the diagram, the outflow comes from the heater, so water goes tub>>pump>>filter>>heater>>tub. Also, we have a 3 HP pump, if that matters.

 

[RDspaguy]

The level of the jets does not matter, and you don't have enough jets to overload an air control. The air gets drawn in to the jets by a built in venturi. The air controls must be open, of course, and free of obstructions. If even a few of the jets are closed, blocked, or overpowered (too big a pump) it can pressurize the air lines with water which will prevent the air from being pulled in. You will still have water flow, but it won't be the turbulent white of air injection.
Some jet internals can be installed backwards (half-turn out of alignment) that can cause the venturi to fail. Again, will have flow but no air.
Venturis also require a minimum flow rate to work, so if your diverter valve is in the wrong position, or there are too many jets on a small hp pump, they will not have enough flow to pull in the air.
Pump hp is misleading, how many amps and what voltage is the pump?
What size is the pipe?
How many jets are there?

 

[PopcornSally]

Thank you for the help! The pump is 120 volts and 11 amps according to the literature. There are 6 jets, one of which is a Hayward Turbo Jet. The smaller jets are: 1 inch jet (2), 1.5 inch jet (3). I took out one of the nozzles shown below.

I've confirmed there is very little or no air flow to the small jets which are all on one air loop with one air control opening. Even with the turbo jet turned all the way off. The turbo jet has it's own separate air inflow which works just fine.

 

[RDspaguy]

That is about 1.5 true hp. Still enough to push those jets.
Each jet is individually adjustable by turning the end of the nozzle. If flow is turned down on any it could cancel out the air flow on all of them. Make sure they are all open.

 

[PopcornSally]

That is about 1.5 true hp. Still enough to push those jets.
Each jet is individually adjustable by turning the end of the nozzle. If flow is turned down on any it could cancel out the air flow on all of them. Make sure they are all open.

Thank you... I understand what you're saying.

I just turned off the turbo jet and opened all 5 of the smaller jets all the way. Put the pump on high speed... There is still no air coming through.

 

[MSchutzer]

I think your problem is shown in your first photo and the 4th photo with the S curve in the piping. When the jets are off all of the air piping fills up with water. When the jets are on the jet venturi pulls the water down out of the pipes until they are empty and full of air. Then the air is pulled through the jets.

In your first photo the air line runs to the bottom jet and then up to the top jet. When the jets are on the top jet must pull the water in the airline upward and you are fighting gravity and water is denser than air. The air line routing probably should be top jet first and then bottom jet.

In your 4th photo you have an S curve between the two jets. Imagine this loop full of water when the jets are turned on. The lower half of the loop forms a ”p trap” holding water. When the jets are on I doubt that the air can displace all the water in that p trap. This is likely limiting the airflow. The other half of the S curves requires that you have to push water upward through the air line for it to clear.

I would suggest rerouting the air plumbing so the so that the air line runs down to the jets from top to bottom so that you have gravity working with you when the jets are trying to pull the water from the air lines. You may have to split the air line in two and add a separate top air vent to the second half of the air line.

I’m no expert on Spa plumbing but just looking a how the Venturi principle works I suspect it will have problems trying to pull a water column upward when the displacing air is much less dense than the water.

There are probably others that know more about this that can help or confirm this?

 

[PopcornSally]

MSchutzer-- YES! This was my suspicion,too, and I was going to reroute those air lines but wasn't sure how to do it. Thanks for your input.

 

[JamesW]

Try pointing the valve handle straight up so that the gate part (Says “Off”) is at the bottom and completely out of the way.

 

[RDspaguy]

Unfortunately the air control has a check valve built in to keep the air line from flooding with water, and it would only slow the arrival of air to the jets, not stop it, in any event. They frequently fail, but not immediately.
With that jet internal the water comes in the bottom and the air in the slots on the side. I would have expected an o-ring on the edge of the air portion between the air and the water portion. With no separation, water will be forced into the air pipes. It only takes one jet to foul the whole pipe.
Make sure they are threaded all the way in, as a partial thread will definitely be a problem.

 

[RDspaguy]

It is also possible to glue the air control check valve closed when glueing in the pipe. Then there would be no air on that line.

 

[Yuckypuck]

From what you have provided the piping of both air & water should work. The one change you could make, to optimize the water system, would be to remove the white tee in the water line, located to the right of the two white jets, adding a coupling so the water line is plumbed directly into the lower white jet on the right. Cut the water line going to the right side of the upper white jet off and cap it. Cut the cap off the water line coming out of the left side of the lower white jet and add a coupling plus a length of water hose to allow for a sweep 180° bend so it can be attached to the left side of the brown jet (previous supplied by the upper white jet). The would eliminate two sharp 90° bends which should improve the efficient of the water pumping system.

The diverter in your second & third pictures appears to be set halfway between the turbojet or five smaller jets full on position. The diverter valve may need to be set to either the turbo or the five jets full on position for the water system to function correctly.

One additional item to check, in troubleshooting your issue, is to have a qualified electrician check if your pump is wired correctly for the incoming service voltage and running at the correct rpm.

 

[Yuckypuck]

If the turbo jet appears to be operating correctly you may consider swapping the air control valves, on top of the vertical air pipes.

 

[PopcornSally]

Try pointing the valve handle straight up so that the gate part (Says “Off”) is at the bottom and completely out of the way.

OK, tried that. No change.

Unfortunately the air control has a check valve built in to keep the air line from flooding with water

I didn't realize there was a check valve in the air control. Guess I could try swapping the two but they're glued on so it would take a little doing... There's no reasonable way to unglue them, I suppose? I've seen some videos of guys using a heat gun but that's on rigid PVC so maybe the technique doesn't translate?

The one change you could make, to optimize the water system, would be to remove the white tee in the water line,

I understand your suggestions about the plumbing and will consider making those changes if you think it would make a noticeable difference in the water pressure to the jets.

One additional item to check, in troubleshooting your issue, is to have a qualified electrician check if your pump is wired correctly for the incoming service voltage and running at the correct rpm.

We had the whole thing wired and connected by a licensed electrician. He has to come back next week to put in a larger breaker for the heater, so I'll ask him to double-check everything, but I sure hope he did it right the first time! I gave him all the specs from the company.

Honestly, we're very disappointed with the pressure from the 5 regular jets. I thought maybe the fact that the air flow was not working was keeping them from blasting as hard as they should. I don't know, maybe air flow won't help. When we get into the tub, we usually turn the small jets off and just use the turbo jet but that's not what we'd hoped for!

So right now, the main thing we haven't tried is a new air control valve for the 5 regular jets. I'll try that next.

Thanks everyone for all the help!

 

[Yuckypuck]

Ok. More intel is always good.

If the air control valves are glued then let’s revisit your earlier comment before going through the process of changing the air control valve out, for the five jet.

You stated when the tub was filling, the pump was started, just before the water level covered the jets with water causing air & water to forcibly exit the jets. Also air was heard at the air valve suppling the five jets (air control valve may be OK). Then when the water level covered the five jets the air noise heard at the air control valve stopped plus the force of water exiting the jets noticeably diminished.

If this is accurate then the the pump is not developing sufficient flow to overcome the increasing dynamic head of the rising water column (tub water level). Dynamic head is the resistance the pump has to overcome to flow (pump) a given volume (gpm) of water. The statement you made initially about the turbo jet working OK but not the five small jets may be pointing to a pump issue. The turbo jet has a large single orifice with shorter piping both causing less restriction (head) than the five jets which have smaller orifices with longer piping.

When the electrician comes back ask him check the voltage drop on the pump circuit as close to the pump as he can. Check the drop in both the low & high speed operating modes of the pump plus test both speed modes with just the Turbo jets on then just the five jets on. He should also check amperage draw on each leg of the circuit feeding the pump motor from the controller box. Have him write the reading down. If the pump motor is rated at 120V then a significant voltage drop will negatively impact the pump performance.

A red flag for me, on your electrician, is having to come back on the heater breaker. He should have done this correctly the first time around if he is on top of his game. Would suggest you also ask him to check the voltage drop at the heater because a drop in voltage causes an increase in current draw which may be causing the heater breaker to trip. The tripping breaker could be symptomatic of a under sized wiring issue.

Your tub system should be supplied from a properly installed GFIC breaker and the wiring from this breaker to the tub's control box needs to correctly installed. Ask the electrician to demonstrate the operation of the GFIC breaker to you and ask that he reverify the wiring from it to the controller.

The piping change, recommended earlier, will improve the overall efficiency of the pumping system but at this point it is not the key element to addressing your tub's underperforming water supply to the five jets

 

[MSchutzer]

Hi all,

It seems to me that a check valve in the air control will not prevent the piping arrangements in photos one and four from flooding with water when the jets are off.

If there are check valves in the jets, then yes the air line would stay dry, but otherwise when the jets are turned off the water will back flow into the airline of the bottom jet while the air in the line is pushed out of the top jet.

So every time the jets are turned on both the S curve and the inverted air feed on the end jet need to clear the water for the air to flow.

In the case of the S curve plumbing I believe the water will be displaced until the top of the p trap is clear and then the air will run over the exposed area on top of the trap, but the flow will be restricted as the pipe is partially blocked by the water in the trap. You are also trying to push water uphill over the top of the S curve.

For the jet on the end that has the air line fed from the bottom the water pressure will be higher on the bottom jet as it is fed first. So when it starts where does it’s Venturi draw from, it seems to me it will pull from the open air line back to the control, but equally pull from the water column between the top and bottom jet. I don’t see how the upper jet ever clears the air line unless it’s water pressure is higher than the bottom jet.

My spa jet has old style fixed gunite jets and the whole air line is flooded when the jets are off. It takes a good 15 to 30 seconds for the jets to pull all the water out of the air line before the jet action begins.
This is probably different from modern jets but I think the Venturi principle is the same.

It just seems that it is asking a lot for the venturi action to pull water uphill against gravity, but maybe it can work that way?

Mark

 

[PopcornSally]

A red flag for me, on your electrician, is having to come back on the heater breaker. He should have done this correctly the first time around if he is on top of his game.

Oh, boy if you only knew the whole story... the excuse he gave was that no one in the entire state had a 240 breaker at the time he hooked up the equipment. Our heater is ok to run on 120 or 240 so we agreed to have the lower one put in while we waited for him to get the bigger one so we could at least use the tub while waiting. Meanwhile, 6 weeks later we're still waiting but he says he's coming this week so--fingers crossed.

I'm going to print out your last message and memorize it so I can hold his feet to the fire on this. I had wondered about the pump as it does seem to get quite hot while running but maybe that's normal?

One other piece of info: we used the tub last night for the first time after refilling it. The 5 small jets were blasting significantly more strongly than before the refill. But still no bubble from them. I sort of think the turbo jet was a bit weaker than it was before but that could be my imagination.

It just seems that it is asking a lot for the venturi action to pull water uphill against gravity

Changing the plumbing is still on my list of options for sure!

Thanks, you guys, for the help! I'll keep you posted.

 

[JamesW]

the excuse he gave was that no one in the entire state had a 240 breaker at the time he hooked up the equipment.

There’s a little know store that carries breakers called Home Depot that the electrician probably does not know about.

Internet #206965328

Model #US2:QF220AP

Store SKU #992623

 

[PopcornSally]

There’s a little know store that carries breakers called Home Depot that the electrician probably does not know about.

Internet #206965328

Model #US2:QF220AP

Store SKU #992623

Hahahaha... Well, that's what I thought, too but the guy said there were "none in the entire state." I also searched the internet and saw there were some available at places like HD, but since I know almost nothing about electrical, I didn't question him. I thought maybe we needed some special kind of breaker. And we live about half a mile from Home Depot!

You should hear the story about his buddy who did the landscaping in our yard. He was a real gem, too.

After thinking about it, I've decided to get a different electrician to come out next week to change out the breaker and check the other guy's work. Thanks for the input. Oh, the joys of being a naive homeowner.