Salt vs AOP/chlorine

[NewPoolDad]

I'm going to go against the grain here and suggest you talk directly with pool owners who actually have AOP/UV-Ozone sanitation along with trace chlorine. There is lots of evidence that a SWG isn't the holy grail that it's made out to be and there are indeed other great options that have benefits that a SWG doesn't provide. Check it out for yourself and make an informed decision. I have a new pool going in and am opting for the Paramount Clear O3 system. UV/Ozone Pool Owners Tips

 

[Jimrahbe]

Dad,

Well, just based upon the fact that your pool builder is selling you an IntelliFlo with SVRS, I can only assume that he has no clue what he is selling... I have three pools.. Two have the normal IntelliFlo and the pool at my house has the IntelliFlo with SVRS.. The two normal IntelliFlo pumps are perfect in every way.. The SVRS version, not so much.. It was the worst pool decision I have ever made and was based upon my pool builders recommendation. I've learned to work around the problems, but if you don't do anything else, try not to install one.

The SVRS pump will go into the "entrapment" mode if the neighbor next door just passes a little gas... Ok, maybe not that bad but it is a real problem.. It reacts to any surge in the circulation system. So, if you just shut off the air vent valve just a little too quickly, it will go into the entrapment mode and shut off. Then it takes several tries to get the pump back up and running.. If you turn a Jandy valve too quickly with the pump on you can get the same false failure. If the water gets a little low in the skimmer and the pump switches to a higher speed the same thing can happen.. The basic IntelliFlo pump is the Gold standard of pumps, but the SVRS version is the pits.

The point is the pool builder is a salesman, that does not mean he actually knows what he is selling..

It is your pool and you can have all the magic you want.. I don't care.. But I really suggest you rethink the SVRS pump..

Thanks for your opposing view..

Jim R.

 

[Donldson]

There is lots of evidence that a SWG isn't the holy grail that it's made out to be and there are indeed other great options that have benefits that a SWG doesn't provide.

You wouldn't happen to have any of this "lot of evidence" you could share, now would you? I don't mean marketing material, I mean real legitimate data from reliable sources.

Personally speaking, when it comes to asking about these "alternatives" I find that people who bought in to them to be the second-least reliable sources. They dumped a lot of money in to these systems, it's rare to find someone who is willing to admit to having made a mistake.

 

[NewPoolDad]

You wouldn't happen to have any of this "lot of evidence" you could share, now would you? I don't mean marketing material, I mean real legitimate data from reliable sources.

Personally speaking, when it comes to asking about these "alternatives" I find that people who bought in to them to be the second-least reliable sources. They dumped a lot of money in to these systems, it's rare to find someone who is willing to admit to having made a mistake.

I tried providing evidence and linked to a FB group, " UV/Ozone Pool Owners Tips " but the link was removed by a moderator for some reason. I didn't know this place frowns upon providing links to other sources of information. What's so scary about speaking with actual pool owners who are using this type of sanitation method and listening to their experience and feedback, good, bad, or indifferent?

As far as the cost of this type of system, it was actually a little cheaper than the SWG option and I'm well aware of needing to replace lamps every few years. If it ends up sucking then I'll be happy to admit I was wrong and to warn others against them. At the same time, it's also possible that some SWG people are convinced 100% that nothing else can ever compete and now they're clutching their pearls when the younger, hotter version moves into town. Not that I'm saying that is happening here of course.

I rely on my pool builder to be honest and to steer me in the right direction. So after reviewing their long history, their ranking as the #1 pool builder in New England, their awards and positive reviews, their outstanding warranty, and lastly, my direct experience working and speaking with their customers, I'd be foolish not to listen to their suggestions. They didn't say, "Don't go with a SWG". They said, "A SWG is good but we've been starting to offer UV/Ozone the last few years and they do a great job".

 

[Newdude]

I rely on my pool builder to be honest and to steer me in the right direction. So after reviewing their long history, their ranking as the #1 pool builder in New England, their awards and positive reviews, their outstanding warranty, and lastly, my direct experience working and speaking with their customers, I'd be foolish not to listen to their suggestions

Their specialty is building, not maintaining after the fact. By the time you have had several uncontrollable algae blooms, they will be long gone. And it will take you several rounds of blindly listing to the pool store (while draining your wallet each time) before you’ve had enough of them perpetuating the problem and come back here to listen.

Besides the fact that none of the other systems leaves a residual sanitizer to keep the other 99.9999% of you water safe, there is also no way of knowing that the other systems are working. There is nothing to test for them and you don’t know they need replacement parts (bulbs, mineral packs, etc) you have much bigger problems.

This is all new to you and we get that. But we have seen hundreds of people come here in your shoes and even more that came here at their wits end after using one of the aforementioned systems. We have nothing to sell you but goodwill. Can the others say the same ?

 

[Newdude]

What if we look at the equation in a different industry ? Go buy a car at the premier dealership in New England. Will they try to sell you on an extended warranty, tire protection and undercarriage coating ? You betcha. Does every last consumer need all that ? Not even close. But they are the #1 dealer in the North East..... surely they know what you need. (They know how to fleece you at least, the rest is objectionable at best).

 

[cowboycasey]

I tried providing evidence and linked to a FB group, " UV/Ozone Pool Owners Tips " but the link was removed by a moderator for some reason. I didn't know this place frowns upon providing links to other sources of information. What's so scary about speaking with actual pool owners who are using this type of sanitation method and listening to their experience and feedback, good, bad, or indifferent?

As far as the cost of this type of system, it was actually a little cheaper than the SWG option and I'm well aware of needing to replace lamps every few years. If it ends up sucking then I'll be happy to admit I was wrong and to warn others against them. At the same time, it's also possible that some SWG people are convinced 100% that nothing else can ever compete and now they're clutching their pearls when the younger, hotter version moves into town. Not that I'm saying that is happening here of course.

I rely on my pool builder to be honest and to steer me in the right direction. So after reviewing their long history, their ranking as the #1 pool builder in New England, their awards and positive reviews, their outstanding warranty, and lastly, my direct experience working and speaking with their customers, I'd be foolish not to listen to their suggestions. They didn't say, "Don't go with a SWG". They said, "A SWG is good but we've been starting to offer UV/Ozone the last few years and they do a great job".

UV and Ozone are great in hot tub or spa and enclosed pools as no sun gets to those but an outdoor pool gets way more UV from the sun then it will ever get from a small bulb... They work to get rid of the combines chloramines CC after the chlorine has killed the germs and viruses and all the other crud we bring into a pool... That is why they say you also have to have chlorine in the pool because Ozone and UV only kill things directly in front of them, there will be water in the pool with things growing in it that will never get pulled in front of those bulbs and therefore never get killed... Another thing most do not know, UV and Ozone also attack chlorine so to keep enough chlorine in the pool to keep it sanitized and keep your family safe you are close to adding in the same amount of chlorine as we recommend anyways..

There is a use for UV and Ozone just not in an outdoor pool

 

[NewPoolDad]

Their specialty is building, not maintaining after the fact. By the time you have had several uncontrollable algae blooms, they will be long gone. And it will take you several rounds of blindly listing to the pool store (while draining your wallet each time) before you’ve had enough of them perpetuating the problem and come back here to listen.

Besides the fact that none of the other systems leaves a residual sanitizer to keep the other 99.9999% of you water safe, there is also no way of knowing that the other systems are working. There is nothing to test for them and you don’t know they need replacement parts (bulbs, mineral packs, etc) you have much bigger problems.

This is all new to you and we get that. But we have seen hundreds of people come here in your shoes and even more that came here at their wits end after using one of the aforementioned systems. We have nothing to sell you but goodwill. Can the others say the same ?

Listen, I appreciate a good condescending butt whooping but your post couldn't be more wrong on nearly every point that it's actually impressive.

For starters, my pool company specializes in building AND maintaining as they have their own in-house service department, so all the doom and gloom points you made after that are rendered false, or "fake news" as we might say today. Point 1.

You have no clue what system is being installed and if you did, you'd know that there will be a residual sanitizer in the pool for those time that pump isn't running and when the UV/Ozone system isn't in use. Point 2.

This is not "all new to me" as I've worked directly with pool companies and their customers for years. I love getting other points of view and don't claim to be an expert on anything. However, it's also true that not everyone here is an expert on other systems and that even though they only want to provide goodwill, that goodwill doesn't go very far if it relies on incorrect/incomplete information about those other systems they've failed to read up on. Point 3.

 

[NewPoolDad]

What if we look at the equation in a different industry ? Go buy a car at the premier dealership in New England. Will they try to sell you on an extended warranty, tire protection and undercarriage coating ? You betcha. Does every last consumer need all that ? Not even close. But they are the #1 dealer in the North East..... surely they know what you need. (They know how to fleece you at least, the rest is objectionable at best).

I can appreciate that point but it seems and apples and oranges comparison. What warranty items are the pool company pushing? They warranty the pool and equipment the same regardless of sanitation method. A more apt comparison would be them suggesting a certain engine option like a V6 over a Turbo diesel, each have their own unique characteristics.

 

[Newdude]

What warranty items are the pool company pushing? They warranty the pool and equipment the same regardless of sanitation method

The point was for ‘extras’ being sold under the guise that the premier dealer was helping you instead of their own bottom line.

I’m sorry that you interpreted my posts to be condescending, that is not my way and I have no intents other than to try and be helpful. You don’t have to agree, or even like my ideas, but never think I am trying to be nasty.

 

[tim5055]

I tried providing evidence and linked to a FB group, " UV/Ozone Pool Owners Tips " but the link was removed by a moderator for some reason.

Yes, links to external sites will be removed because we find that it is confusing to try to mix pool care methods.

Your post to Trouble Free Pool was moved to our Agree to Disagree forum. Obviously what at we teach is very different from what you believe.

We base our pool care system on accurate testing and only adding what the pool needs, when it needs it. To do that we advocate that every pool owner buy and use an accurate test kit.

Throughout TFP, you will read that we suggest certain levels that good science and practical experience has taught us fall within safe ranges.

Further reading of posts here will draw you to the inescapable conclusion that these guidelines work.......in thousands and thousands of pools worldwide. Our goal is to teach pool owners what has been proven to work time and time again and then let them use that information to their benefit.

You may or may not agree with what we teach, nor choose to advocate these methods, that is your choice.

Contrary to what many believe, TFP does not exist to discuss ALL methods of pool care, but a singular method that has come to be known as Trouble Free Pool care. It involves accurate self testing of your pool water and only adding what the pool needs. We want pool owners to understand that "traditional" methods of pool care as taught by many pool stores are often adding things to your pool that you really don't need. From CYA in stabilized pool products to the UV and ozone in the "lower chlorine" methods we feel you don't want or need them.

We are not here to discuss other methods like natural pool care and other methods like Baqua or Bromine are discussed, but we try to explain that TFP methods are easier and less expensive.

I guess it just comes down to the fact that as one person said in frustration because we didn't agree to give up chlorine, that TFP is nothing but a chlorine forum. In a way, I guess we are.........

 

[Donldson]

I tried providing evidence and linked to a FB group, " UV/Ozone Pool Owners Tips " but the link was removed by a moderator for some reason. I didn't know this place frowns upon providing links to other sources of information. What's so scary about speaking with actual pool owners who are using this type of sanitation method and listening to their experience and feedback, good, bad, or indifferent?

So I say "reliable sources" and you hear "Facebook group"?!? There is no greater hive of misinformation and lies than a Facebook group, and THAT is why the link was removed. Your interpretation of why it was removed betrays your bias. Good and valid sources of information are one thing, a FB group that allows anyone to say anything does not even come close to qualifying. We like facts by people who know something about water chemistry, not opinions by people who think cyanuric acid is what's in their printer ink cartridge.

I rely on my pool builder to be honest and to steer me in the right direction.

That's a big mistake to make. Pool builders are experts at building pools and nothing else. They rarely know anything about water chemistry and almost always have a financial incentive to selling their clients on these "alternatives".

 

[PoolGate]

All a SWG does is provide chlorine for your pool. The pool you are building and going to use ozone on still needs chlorine, why would you choose one over the other? If this is an indoor pool you'd want both. If outdoor the good news is the ozone will only hurt your wallet. And if I understand ozone systems correctly, it is only effective on the water that passes in the ozone generator. Is that correct?

Why do I feel like someone is trying to argue the merits of a 3rd party car extended warranty?

 

[PoolGate]

I just read the below on their site. My main concern is that if the product worked, why would they need to lie/misrepresent in their literature? TFP pools don't need any algaecide. Pools with higher chlorine levels also do not have any smell unless they are dirty and the chlorine is doing its job. Chlorine TFP pools (proper chlorine to CYA levels) are not noticeable to swimmers. It looks like they are using fear (of chlorine) to sell you their system. If their system was a true replacement for chlorine, why wouldn't they properly represent the facts and allow the use to choose the better product?

Similar to salt water, ozone and UV pool systems, hydroxyl-based AOP systems require an occasional algaecide in outdoor pool settings, and it is recommended to maintain a low level of residual chlorine – about the same amount found in common drinking water. However, chlorine at such low levels will not be noticeable to swimmers and will not cause any smell or irritation.

 

[Newdude]

They also misrepresent that the system works with residual chlorine like it supplies it and not the pool owner. If the pool owner has to properly sanitize the pool with chlorine on their own either way, there is zero need for the ozone equipment.

Then they go on with the standard industry misinformation that less chlorine is needed because of the ozone, which 248k members here can attest to is a bold faced lie.

 

[NewPoolDad]

So I say "reliable sources" and you hear "Facebook group"?!? There is no greater hive of misinformation and lies than a Facebook group, and THAT is why the link was removed. Your interpretation of why it was removed betrays your bias. Good and valid sources of information are one thing, a FB group that allows anyone to say anything does not even come close to qualifying. We like facts by people who know something about water chemistry, not opinions by people who think cyanuric acid is what's in their printer ink cartridge.




That's a big mistake to make. Pool builders are experts at building pools and nothing else. They rarely know anything about water chemistry and almost always have a financial incentive to selling their clients on these "alternatives".

While on the whole I would agree with your assessment of many FB groups. What I don't appreciate is your assumption that this relatively small group of pool owners, who happen to be using UV/Ozone, are incapable of giving their real-world experience using these systems. So no, they might not all be chemists, but not many here are either. But is their pool ownership not real and their water testing not real? The original poster was asking about AOP and I offered a source of information. Not the only source of information but "a" source. The TFP method is great. I don't recall saying anything negative against it.

If you saw one of my other responses, you would know that my PB also does maintenance so I'm pretty sure they know a thing or two about chemistry. But hey, it's a great feedback loop going on here. Either your PB is just trying to sell you nonsense and snake oil, or, you can't trust what pool owners say about their UV/Ozone sanitation as they're all imbeciles. Everything conveniently points back to TFP as the ONLY approved method.

 

[Newdude]

But is their pool ownership not real and their water testing not real

Depending on who and what is doing the testing, it very well could be not real. The pool store that tests for free in order to sell the fixes for its own tests cannot be blindly trusted. Neither can ‘guess strips’ / test strips which are overwhelmingly used as well.

 

[PoolGate]

While on the whole I would agree with your assessment of many FB groups. What I don't appreciate is your assumption that this relatively small group of pool owners, who happen to be using UV/Ozone, are incapable of giving their real-world experience using these systems. So no, they might not all be chemists, but not many here are either. But is their pool ownership not real and their water testing not real? The original poster was asking about AOP and I offered a source of information. Not the only source of information but "a" source. The TFP method is great. I don't recall saying anything negative against it.

If you saw one of my other responses, you would know that my PB also does maintenance so I'm pretty sure they know a thing or two about chemistry. But hey, it's a great feedback loop going on here. Either your PB is just trying to sell you nonsense and snake oil, or, you can't trust what pool owners say about their UV/Ozone sanitation as they're all imbeciles. Everything conveniently points back to TFP as the ONLY approved method.

It looks like this system requires an annual cartridge at $295. I was looking for the consumables hook and this is it.

Their website also has several things that are simply not true. I really am hesitant with a product when the seller has to lie to sell it. Even their below chart is not correct and deceptive.

...you would know that my PB also does maintenance so I'm pretty sure they know a thing or two about chemistry.

In practice, the above statement is almost never true.

 

[Newdude]

Oh thank heavens, it will work on my large water park. So GLAD they mentioned that one because clearly it’s relevant to my needs.

 

[NewPoolDad]

Depending on who and what is doing the testing, it very well could be not real. The pool store that tests for free in order to sell the fixes for its own tests cannot be blindly trusted. Neither can ‘guess strips’ / test strips which are overwhelmingly used as well.

I would agree with that. I'd only put faith in legit test kits.