Need some help...Final Decisions before I start my pool build!!!

[Dirk]

It's not just about cost. Heat pump efficiency is subject to climate. Be sure yours supports your expectations before you buy one (when you want to use it: time of day and day of year, how many degrees you want it to heat, etc). They don't necessarily work in all weather and all days of the year, like an NG heater can...

 

[Esloser]

Automation - if you have a spa, I’d definitely go with automation. It is so nice to be able to turn on the spa from inside the house and let it heat up or on your way home from work. It’s also nice to be able to turn it off without having to go to the pad and manually turn valves.

My automation came with a remote I can carry around and a cradle in the house. I use it to control the spa, deck jets, and pressure cleaner. It is nice to be able to adjust the temperature of the spa or turn on the blower for the spa without having to get out.

I’m not sure if automation systems work with robots. However, I have the pressure side cleaner that works off the booster pump. I leave it in the pool all week and have a timer for it to run for a few hours each day. That way, anytime I want to use the pool, it is clean and ready to go. I usually pull it out and put it in the side of the pool or remove it completely for parties / barbecues.

As far as the 400k btu heater, it heats my spa in 20-30 minutes. In New Jersey, I think it costs me about $4 per hour to run. I do use it to heat the pool early in the season or late in the season, but not every day. If a weekend is going to be really nice or we planned an event, I will heat the pool starting on Thursday and running to Saturday. It would be cost-prohibitive to maintain temperature all season long.

 

[Dirk]

I have an NG heater I've never turned on. Afraid of the cost. Esloser, have you ever determined how much it costs you to heat your pool for just the weekend like that? What is your starting temp, and target temp?

I've read here that some (all?) NG heaters shouldn't be used to heat water from below some minimum temp. A pretty high number, too. Like 70s or somewhere in that range. Which means I'd have to keep it heated all the time, to at least that minimum temp, then boost from there when I wanted to use the pool. My pool gets down to 40s and 50s, so I don't think I can use mine from a "cold start" like that, even if I could afford to.

I installed solar instead and resign myself to just enjoying looking at the pool in the off season...

 

[Esloser]

Yes, the pool raises about 1 degree per hour depending on ambient temperatures and other factors. In the worst case, I heat it from 65-85 and takes about 20-24 hours. So, probably $80-$100. It’ll pretty much maintain a temperature in the 80’s through the weekend. Might turn the heater on again Sunday morning to get some more life out of it. The good news is that during this time I’m usually not paying anything to heat or cool the house, so the cost is offset. And, I only do it if we are having something. The kids can go in it at 65-75.

I tend to open the pool in April and will mostly use the spa until the pool and weather starts to warm up sometime in May. I keep it open until the middle of October, but am pretty much only using the spa in September and October.

 

[Esloser]

I’ve never heard the minimum temperature argument. I probably wouldn’t try it if the ambient temperature was below 70 and trying to heat pool to 85. I heat the spa all the time from the 60’s to 96 all Spring and Fall. It’s takes about 30 minutes.

 

[Dirk]

I’ve never heard the minimum temperature argument. I probably wouldn’t try it if the ambient temperature was below 70 and trying to heat pool to 85. I heat the spa all the time from the 60’s to 96 all Spring and Fall. It’s takes about 30 minutes.

This from my Pentair heater's manual. Two of these points seem to contradict each other a bit, but there are some issues with heaters and cold water to be aware of:

CAUTION
• Operating this heater continuously at water temperatures below 68° F. (20° C) will cause harmful condensation and will damage
the heater and void the warranty.
• If the heater has been drained for freezing condition, do NOT turn "ON" until the system is circulating water.
• Water trapped in the heat exchanger can result in freeze damage to the exchanger or headers. Freeze damage is specifically not
covered by the warranty.
• When starting the heater for the swimming season with a water temperature below 50° F (10° C), the heater may be used to heat
the water; however, make sure that the heater operates continuously until the water temperature reaches the heater’s minimum
setting of 68° F (20° C). During cold weather, if there is no danger of freezing, operate the filter pump continuously even if the
heater is not operating. If air temperatures are expected to drop below freezing (32° F/0° C), shut down the heater and winterize
it.

So it's still not clear to me from this warning what I can or can't do with my heater. But there appears to be some danger of damage if used in low temps improperly.

 

[Esloser]

I didn’t see that warning in my Hayward manual. I just searched through it.

 

[Dirk]

When I learned of it here, I read it had something to do with condensation and the damage that could cause. My manual confirms that. Would that be common to all heaters? Don't know. I didn't study up too much, because I don't ever plan on swimming during an off season weekend! Mostly because a big part of enjoying the pool for me is sitting around it. Not much of that going on in the winter!

Without the warning, I guess your warranty is safe. Is there a way to check for this condensation damage? If you're not getting any, then you're good to go!

Anyway, the point of me even bring it up was for the OP. To make sure he understands what his heater can and can't do, in his climate, whatever type he goes with, and that its capabilities match his expectations. Something a PB could neglect to make clear...

 

[ajw22]

This from my Pentair heater's manual. Two of these points seem to contradict each other a bit, but there are some issues with heaters and cold water to be aware of:

CAUTION
• Operating this heater continuously at water temperatures below 68° F. (20° C) will cause harmful condensation and will damage
the heater and void the warranty.

So it's still not clear to me from this warning what I can or can't do with my heater. But there appears to be some danger of damage if used in low temps improperly.

I think what they are saying in an awkward way is if your OAT is so cold that you can't get the water temp above 68 degrees then you should not use it.

So if the oat is 40F and the heater can't get the water temp above 68F you should not use it.

If OAT is 65 and the water temp is 55F the heater can get the water past 68 degrees in about 10 hours.

In my experience the OAT determines how hot you can get the pool water. If the OAT is 5 to 10 degrees below your set pool temp you may never get there because you lose more BTU's to the cold air then what the heater can provide.

 

[Steve_in_C]

Others please check behind me. Pool heat pumps often have a CoP (Coefficient of Performance) rating. A CoP of 5 means that the heat pump will provide 5 times the amount of heat as the energy used to power the heat pump. It does this by capturing heat from the air. The CoP for heat and CoP for cooling are different because of the temperature differences. Using the same example as above, a 20,000 gallon pool requires 160,000 BTUs to heat the water by 1 Fahrenheit degree. So to heat the pool by 5 degrees takes 800,000 BTU. For a CoP of 5, then the heat pump would use 1/5 of the BTUs in electricity or 160,000 BTUs worth of electricity. 1 kwh = 3413 BTUs. 160,000 BTU * 1kwh/3413 BTU * $0.13/kwh = $6.09. That makes a heat pump cost less than 1/2 to run compared to the above example using natural gas. Heat pump efficiency correlates with the outside temperatures. The colder it is outside, the less efficient the heat pump is for heating. When there is more heat in the air to capture, it's more efficient. You need to check with your local conditions to see if it's warm enought for a heat pump to work efficiently in your climate. I see that you are in AL. It should be warm enough in the summer for a heat pump. See if others have pool heat pumps in your area. When the climate is suitable, they are much better than gas. When it's cold outside, gas works in all temperatures you would likely encounter. Solar panels are the cheapest to run, but require a place to put them. Whatever you get, get large. The smaller your unit, the more run time you will need on your pool pump. So a 160,000 BTU/h pool heat pump would have to run 1 hour for every degree you want to add if everything else is perfect. A heat pump of 100,000 BTU/h would have to run for 8 hours. You only need about 4 hours of run time on your pool pump to filter the water. You may have to run longer than that for a SWG, heater or solar panels. Add that extra electricity cost to your calculations. When you are doing the math for your SWG, you may find these 2 links helpful:
SWG Run Time Calculator
Compare and Review Saltwater Chlorine Generator Prices and Features

 

[Steve_in_C]

And if you decide to go Dolphin robot. You might find a refurbished one from the manufacturer at http://www.certifieddolphins.com SUMMER50 code for $50 off.

 

[Dirk]

Steve_in_C, I think you confirmed two things. That the OP has some studying to do. And that my decision to go with solar over heat pump still makes sense (for me). They both kinda add some heat to make things more comfortable, but don't really make sense for heating a pool too far out of the swim season. Not in my climate, anyway. Fossils are the best guests to invite to a winter pool party!

I'm sure a heat pump would have gotten me better heating more of the time, but I compromised on the performance to save substantial cost. My solar system was half the initial cost (maybe less), has virtually no operating costs (save a few pump RPMs to overcome friction in the panels), and will likely last 20+ years without replacement. That was a fair trade for me. It doesn't extend my swim season all that much, but it makes a lot of my swim season much more comfortable. It works the absolute best, like this month, when I don't actually need it!!

And to bring this full circle, my automation controller can be set that it automatically selects which heat source is preferred. It'll fire up the solar system if the sun can heat the pool, but it'll shut down solar and fire up the NG heater (pump heater, too, I presume) when solar can't do the job. And it'll point heat at the pool or the spa. Or heat the pool only with solar, and the spa only with NG, etc. Some very nice features, and more in the plus column for automation.

 

[sham]

Regarding depth, ours is 3.5 to 5.0 in the middle to 4.0 and it is pretty deep for volleyball when you are in the middle of the pool up near the net. I think 6 foot would be to deep in the middle for volleyball. And we are a fairly tall family, I'm 5'8", hubs is 6'2 and teens are 6'0.

When we planned on getting the pool when the kids were little we were set on having a true 8 or 9 ft deep end with diving board. We ended up waiting until they were older and decided to do a sports pool for volleyball/basketball. I regret not getting a good basketball goal installed when building.

 

[Steve_in_C]

Nice compromise Dirk..

 

[Dirk]

Nice compromise Dirk..

I looked into a heat pump, and with my PV solar system it could have made good economic sense to run it. But the initial cost (aren't they like $5000-$7000 or something?), along with some anecdotal warnings about their longevity (5 years? 10 years?)... I shied away...

I installed my pool solar myself for about three bills, and with the PV solar the extra RPMs needed for it are a non-issue. So I basically have my pool heating paid for for the next 20-25 years (maybe more)...

 

[Steve_in_C]

I looked into a heat pump, and with my PV solar system it could have made good economic sense to run it. But the initial cost (aren't they like $5000-$7000 or something?), along with some anecdotal warnings about their longevity (5 years? 10 years?)... I shied away...

I installed my pool solar myself for about three bills, and with the PV solar the extra RPMs needed for it are a non-issue. So I basically have my pool heating paid for for the next 20-25 years (maybe more)...

Looking at the Heliocol brochure, an HC-50 has 40.68 ft2. Using the mid range from the brochure that's 1500 BTU/ft2 or 61,000 BTU per panel. 8 panels would be 488,000 BTU's. That's almost 500,000 BTU for "3 bills". I don't see them for that price. Amazon has them for $756 each. 8 would be $6,000 and you'd have to have some type of rack / mount as well as plumbing, pump, controls to buy as well. I don't see how you did it for that unless it was years ago or you bought used ones.

 

[Dirk]

Nope, and nope. Brand new. Just last year. I decided Heliocol early on, and price shopped. Came up with the same numbers as you, and worse. I was seeing them for $1000 a panel in some cases. While I was researching I also had a local solar company give me an estimate. Their price was like $10K installed (though I think that also included a new VS pump and cheapie solar controller). I told 'em no thanks, but then they offered me a "kit." The kit included the eight panels (4x12) and absolutely every single thing I need to install myself: pipe (special black PVC), valves (Jandy), Heliocol roof mounts, special couplers, etc, etc... the works, down to screws, glue and even a few wiping rags. No foolin'. The panels were about $300 each. I still don't know how, or why, they gave me that deal. No other vendor could touch that. So before they changed their mind, I grabbed the deal. The warranty is a little vague, though they have already replaced one panel. I don't think I'll get Heliocol's 20-year (whatever it is), but the vendor did tell me they'd sell me more, or replacements, for $300. At that price I could buy another eight and still come out ahead (which is why I'm not too concerned about warranty). Still shakin' my head about it. I shared in PM with another guy here, who wanted in on this, and I haven't heard back. But I did talk to the sales guy I used, and they had connected and he said he was going to set him up. Crazy, right? But that's how I got that price...

 

[aaronhawk008]

Thanks for all the advice and help from everyone here to get the answers I needed. The PB finally had the time to get back with me on exactly what I wanted and he answered every single question I had about the build. I am signing paperwork and putting a deposit down on Monday to start my build in December.

Here is what we have decided...

• 16'x28' Free Form Gunite Pool w/ Tanning Ledge (3.5ft to 5.5ft of Depth)
• Raised 7' Spa w/ Stone Veneer & Spillover
• Shell to be 1/2" Rebar tied on 10" Centers
• 6"x6" Water Line Tile
• 266 BTU Natural Gas Heater for Spa Only

• Jandy Flow Pro 1.5hp Variable Speed Pump (JEP 1.5)
• Jandy Sand Filter (JS60-SM)
• 2hp Motor for Spa
• Jandy TrueClear Salt System (TRUCLEAR11KU)
• Polaris 9350 Robotic (PVF 9350)
• 2 LED Color Changing Pool Lights w/ Transformer & 1 LED Color Changing Light for Spa
• Jandy AquaLink Automation for iPhone
• Diamond Brite Plaster Color of Choice
• Commercial Grade Skimmer w/ Dual Main Drains and 2 Returns
• All Plumbing
• Grounding Grid
• All Excavation
• All Permits
• All Electrical
• Gas Plumbing
• Hauling off Spoils from Dig
• 5' Salted Concrete around Border of Pool and under Pergola
• Stacked Stone Outdoor Kitchen w/ Mini Fridge and space for Big Green Egg
• 12'x12' Pergola w/ 8" Cedar Beams and Pitched Metal Roof w/ Electrical & AV Stubbed

Am I missing anything? Or is there anything that might not be needed?

Thanks!

Aaron H.

 

[Dirk]

I had mentioned auto leveling (filling and overflow). Did you decide you didn't need that?

Did you ask about no drains?

 

[CentralTexian]

What is the surface square feet and volume in gallons for your pool?

I guess BTU's impact how fast the water heats up, I was getting quotes for 400K BTU heaters - more expensive obviously but can heat much faster and more efficiently.

I think one skimmer is enough for that size pool but I may go with 2 skimmers myself since I have a lot of leaves in the area.

Good luck!