Looking for VS Pump Recommendation

[ryguy]

My 15 year old Hayward 1.5 HP single-speed Superpump's impeller just broke. Even though the motor is still working I would like to replace it with a more efficient and effective pump with at least 2 speeds. My pool is 65 years old but was fully renovated 15 years ago with new plaster/coping/tiles/skimmer/plumbing/equipment. Pool is gunite, 15'x37', 24,000 gallons, with the only "extras" being an Intermatic timer, inline chlorinator that uses 3" pucks, and a large heat pump (seldom used, and currently not working due to freeze damage that pool companies will not fix, so I've disconnected/bypassed it until I can find a way to get it repaired).

The newer plumbing consists of 1.5" pvc plumbing for skimmer, returns, booster/cleaner lines, plus the original 1.25" black poly on the main drain. There is only one line that was plumbed for the skimmer and it can be mixed with main drain via Jandy valve. There are two returns, plus one other pipe that was used for the Polaris booster pump (currently unused now as I have a Tiger Shark robotic cleaner now). The skimmer has never had enough suction to pull in much debris so if a new pump could fix that it would be great. The skimmer line is 30' length and main drain about 40' length to pump. Pump is maybe 2-3" above water line.

The filter is a Hayward sand filter, Model S244T (says 62 gpm on it). The Superpump was wired on 115v but I just noticed it is 220v going into the Intermatic freeze guard timer (note that timer often gets stuck on mechanical tabs and doesn't come on when it's supposed to). So I think I could use either 115 or 220v pump, but not sure. The circuit feeding the timer/pump is a double breaker with both bars marked as 15 amps. Note the pool panel is fed by a 50 amp breaker from the sub panel off the main breaker box. It almost always trips if we get heavy rain so if you have ideas to fix that too, I'm all ears. The heat pump is fed by a separate 40 amp breaker from the sub panel.

I have no plans for other automation with the possible exception to add swcg. I would like the new pump to be quiet, efficient, and have better suction than the old pump, and MUST be reliable. Also, if you think I should upsize/change my filter please let me know your thoughts. I am open to any suggestions you may have for this setup.

 

[mas985]

The skimmer has never had enough suction to pull in much debris so if a new pump could fix that it would be great.

Did you ever try shutting off the MD?

Beyond that, to increase suction, you would need a larger pump which means it would be more expensive to run.

But since you don't have any automation, a stand alone VS such as the SuperFlo VS or the MaxFlo VS would be just fine. But again, if your skimmer is not working with your current pump, these pumps might produce more flow rate and higher suction but would end up costing more to run.

Also, what is your location?

 

[ryguy]

Did you ever try shutting off the MD?

Beyond that, to increase suction, you would need a larger pump which means it would be more expensive to run.

But since you don't have any automation, a stand alone VS such as the SuperFlo VS or the MaxFlo VS would be just fine. But again, if your skimmer is not working with your current pump, these pumps might produce more flow rate and higher suction but would end up costing more to run.

Also, what is your location?

I have shut off main drain and it helps a little, but still feel it's not strong enough. I usually run MD/Skimmer at about 10/90 mix. I was looking at Pentair SuperFlo vs 1.5 hp. It seems to have decent reviews and thought it might be strong enough. I am located in Atlanta and keep pool open all year, which is where I thought I might get most savings from running pump slowly at freezing temps instead of full 1.5 hp for sometimes many hours.


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[CJadamec]

How is the flow out of your returns? What pressure were you running on your filter? I'm not convinced a more powerful pump will really fix the problems you are experiencing but since your current pump is broken and you are looking to replace it going with an up sized VS is an option.

A super flo VS is going to have roughly the same pump curve as your old superpump 1.5hp (also available in a VS model). The two pumps are made to compete with each other.

If you are looking to step up in pump size an intelliflo VS pump is the next step VS pump wise ( either ecostar or tristar is the Hayward version).

Going with the intelliflo will actually get you a cheaper to run pump electrically than the superflo but not by enough that it will really matter. If you go with the superflo its about 300 cheaper and you will have roughly the same pump you had but probably a little stronger if you run it higher in rpms. The intelliflo will be a big step up in power but I'd be willing to bet your skimmer is limited more by the plumbing and aiming of the returns than by the pump. If you really want the skimmer action shut off the main drain completely when you want to skim.

Either pump is great pump and loved by those who have them.

 

[ryguy]

Thanks for your suggestions. My pressure was always consistent around 12 psi. I noticed the flow from the returns started weakening (not a lot) beginning maybe 5 years ago. I have no idea why except that I also noticed around that time that my cleaner line (for the old Polaris I quit using at about the same time) started trickling water out at about the same point in time which maybe accounted for some of the return pressure loss.

Do you think the Pentair pumps are more reliable than the similar Hayward models? Or is the superflo more reliable than the Intelliflo? And what should be the max hp I should use? One pool company quoted me 2k to install an intelliflo 3hp, but that seemed overly expensive to me.

 

[CJadamec]

I wouldn't say any of the pumps you mentioned are better or more reliable than the rest of them. Often is more important to stick with same branded equipment for automation reasons. If you aren't automated then which ever one looks best or is on sale. Also is you feel the extra money spent on the larger pump is worth it to you. If your pool was working fine in the past with the pump you have now you would be best to fix any plumbing problems you might have. A bigger pump won't solve leaks in the plumbing it will only make them worse.

An intelliflo pump costs in the 900-1000 dollar range online so that builder is charging you double the cost of the pump for the install.

 

[foobert]

The circuit feeding the timer/pump is a double breaker with both bars marked as 15 amps. Note the pool panel is fed by a 50 amp breaker from the sub panel off the main breaker box. It almost always trips if we get heavy rain so if you have ideas to fix that too, I'm all ears.
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Is the 50A breaker in your main panel a GFCI? In order to save costs sometimes a single GFCI will be installed for the pool sub-panel. To my knowledge, this meets code, but, I believe it is more prone to nuisance trips when done this way (as opposed to a gfci per device in the sub-panel). If it is a GFCI, it could be going bad, or you could actually have a real ground fault caused by some something getting wet and conducting current to ground.

If your sub-panel feeder breaker is a simple over-current only breaker, you have a serious problem that needs to addressed. Possibly faulty insulation in the wiring run to the sub-panel.

 

[ryguy]

Is the 50A breaker in your main panel a GFCI? In order to save costs sometimes a single GFCI will be installed for the pool sub-panel. To my knowledge, this meets code, but, I believe it is more prone to nuisance trips when done this way (as opposed to a gfci per device in the sub-panel). If it is a GFCI, it could be going bad, or you could actually have a real ground fault caused by some something getting wet and conducting current to ground.

If your sub-panel feeder breaker is a simple over-current only breaker, you have a serious problem that needs to addressed. Possibly faulty insulation in the wiring run to the sub-panel.

 

[ryguy]

I was a bit concerned after reading your reply so I've attached a simplified diagram of my electrical to explain my setup better. The top of the diagram shows a sub panel (in my house) off my main house panel. I've only shown the 50 amp gfi (the one that tends to trip during heavy rain/lightning) which feeds the power to the pool's sub panel (outside).

I've shown all circuits in the pool's sub panel: a) 20a single pole that goes to the old Polaris booster pump, but is no longer used; b) 15a single pole that feeds an outdoor gfi receptacle (I plug my robotic cleaner in there); c) 15a single pole that feeds lights to my sunroom and shed; d) 15a double pole that feeds my Intermatic Freeze guard timer.

Finally, the Intermatic timer powers my pump (and nothing else) with just a 110v power supply to the (broken) Hayward 1.5 hp Superpump today.

I am hoping to possibly remove the Intermatic timer (since not completely reliable) and simply extend the 15a double pole supply from the pool sub panel to a new VS pump with a 220v power supply that would hopefully have a timer built into it too. Additionally, I'd like to add a salt system (maybe Hayward Aquarite 40k gallon?) and somehow tie it into the new pumps timer if that is possible.

I would also like it if my occasional gfi tripping issue was resolved during this modification. Most important is safety though. I'm open to any further suggestions.

 

[CJadamec]

When you say occasional GFCI tripping which one is tripping the 50 amp breaker or the outlet?
The way the GFCI protection is shown in your drawing isn't the best practice way of doing things. The main panel 50 amp breaker should just be a standard breaker. The GFCI protection breaker for the pump should be installed in your pool sub panel. Having GFCI devices downstream of each other can lead to phantom tripping. If you were to change things around you would probably need a GFCI breaker for the lights/shed unless you know they are fed thru a separate GFCI device.

As for the pump wiring it should be wired directly to the breaker if you are removing the timer. As far as I know there is no way to trigger the SWG off of the pump electronics. You will need another timer likely another intermatic timer to control the SWG.

 

[ryguy]

It's the 50a breaker that trips during heavy rain storms. However the gfi outlet has tripped before, but that only happens maybe 1-3 times per year. The line going to the sunroom lights goes through a gfi only after the sunroom lights, before ultimately feeding the shed electricity.

I like the idea of putting in a gfi breaker on the 15a double pole to the pump as I worry about surges into the pump electronics circuitry. If I did that would I have to change out the 50 amp GFI on the panel to a non-GFI? Or can I wait to see how things works out and change it at a later date if it still trips? Also I see some people install a special surge protector device on their pump circuit -- is that recommended to do as well?

I am bummed about not being able to use a new pump with timer to also control the swcg to ensure it doesn't come on without the pump. Looks like I may have to invest in a new Intermatic in that case.

 

[CJadamec]

Yes if you put a GFCI breaker out at the pool panel you should change the 50 amp breaker to a standard breaker. You shouldn't wait to see how it goes they should be done at the same time.

A surge protection device for your VS pump is a good idea and is cheap added protection for the electronics in the pump. Personally I like the Square D HEPD80 for the job. There are other options available as well.

As for the timer as long as you program the pump to come one before the salt cell and turn off after the salt cell you won't have any problems. To be extra cautious you can add a 1 hour window to the pump before and after the salt cell starts to allow for the clocks to drift a bit. If you ever loose power just make sure to double check the timers.