Opening pool with "dead" water

[Yarrbossa]

Re: Opening pool with "dead" water

Ok. To get the CYA from 120 to 40ppm, you need to replace 2/3 of your water.

Do you have a main drain in the pool? A separate pump you can use to get water out below the skimmers?

Fairly positive I have a main drain (even though I can't see it right now). It also looks like there is a separate pump in the shed if needed.

I was reading that if draining using the main drain you should shut off the flow from the skimmers. I have two valves for separate pipes coming into the pump, but they aren't marked so I suppose I'll just do trial and error to make sure I shut off the skimmer flow. Anything else I should be aware of before starting to drain this thing?

 

[GDN]

If those pipes are coming to the inlet on the pump and you have two skimmers, they are likely them. You can test by shutting off one of them and the third which you suspect is a main drain and do some testing of the theory as you start to drain the water. You can leave just one open and go check each skimmer, you should be able to see water moving into and down that skimmer. You don't want to let the water get too low in the skimmer as you try this or it'll start a vortex and suck some air causing the pump to lose prime. So only do this if you still have plenty of water to flow at a good rate into the skimmer. Also if you highly suspect you have a main drain there is a good chance you should be able to feel the cover with your brush. I think you also said the pool was clear when you bought the house so you could look back at any pics from that time as well if you've got them from the house listing.

Good luck with it and maybe post a picture of your equipment pad as well, many good experts here can figure out a lot and know what is going on by just looking at the plumbing and equipment pad.

Edit to add - that yes once you identify the drain vs skimmers you'll want to shut the skimmers off as the water drops, if not you will again suck air into them and the pump will lose prime.

 

[Teald024]

Re: Opening pool with "dead" water

It may seem annoying to have to drain, but in the long run it will make the process much quicker & easier.

Yeah, you will have to close the skimmers before the water drops to where they start sucking air.

Once you figure out each pipe, take a sharpie and write on the pipe near the valve which valve is which.

It is possible your main drain is clogged with debris, so be careful. You may end up filling your pump basket again.

You can use that second pump to get the water out quicker.

Brush & stir the water up, it will help get all that gunk out to waste. Less chlorine you will have to throw at it later.

Pay attention where the waste water is going, it will be a lot of yucky water you are pulling out and you don't want to flood your house.

 

[Yarrbossa]

Re: Opening pool with "dead" water

It may seem annoying to have to drain, but in the long run it will make the process much quicker & easier.

Yeah, you will have to close the skimmers before the water drops to where they start sucking air.

Once you figure out each pipe, take a sharpie and write on the pipe near the valve which valve is which.

It is possible your main drain is clogged with debris, so be careful. You may end up filling your pump basket again.

You can use that second pump to get the water out quicker.

Brush & stir the water up, it will help get all that gunk out to waste. Less chlorine you will have to throw at it later.

Pay attention where the waste water is going, it will be a lot of yucky water you are pulling out and you don't want to flood your house.

Thanks for all the help everyone! I really appreciate it. I'm so worried that I'm going to break something expensive before we even get the pool going that I'm second guessing myself about everything. It's great to have people to confirm things with and get advice on what to do.

Alright, figured it all out. I have a few general questions about my setup, but other than that I found some worn off labels scrawled on the side of the shed. One intake pipe to the pump is for both skimmers, the other is for the main drain. I closed the one to the skimmers and started wasting it out. I'll need to calculate how long to let it go for in order to get around 2/3 of the water out. I could use some help there...

Went ahead and took pictures of my setup with my thoughts as to what things are. If anyone can correct me/clarify anything that would be great! I also can't seem to figure out how many gallons per hour my pump can handle so if it's obvious from something on the label, I can't see it.

Pool - Album on Imgur

 

[Richard320]

Re: Opening pool with "dead" water

Went ahead and took pictures of my setup with my thoughts as to what things are. If anyone can correct me/clarify anything that would be great! I also can't seem to figure out how many gallons per hour my pump can handle so if it's obvious from something on the label, I can't see it.

Pool - Album on Imgur

Okay, the two valves leading into the pump basket are to skimmers and main drain, which you've already figured out.

The valve in the very bottom of the tank is indeed the drain so you can empty it for winterizing. Good setup- saves a whole lot of mess.

The third pipe out the side of the multiport is the waste line, as you've discovered. That inline valve shouldn't be necessary. The multiport should close that passage when it's not in use. So either the previous owner was a belt-and-suspenders kind of guy or the spider gasket within started leaking and he didn't know it was possible to replace it.

As for calculations.... are you sure of the volume? If so, divide volume by surface to get average depth and then drain whatever percentage of that down. For simplified math, say the pool is 30X40 feet. 1200 square feet. 40000 gallons/7.48 gallons per cubic foot is 5347, call it 5400 ft³ 5400/1200= 4.5 average depth. 2/3 of that is 3'. So measure down 3 feet from the water line and stop there. If you time how long it takes to drop an inch, crunching the numbers to estimate time should be pretty easy.

 

[Yarrbossa]

Re: Opening pool with "dead" water

Okay, the two valves leading into the pump basket are to skimmers and main drain, which you've already figured out.

The valve in the very bottom of the tank is indeed the drain so you can empty it for winterizing. Good setup- saves a whole lot of mess.

The third pipe out the side of the multiport is the waste line, as you've discovered. That inline valve shouldn't be necessary. The multiport should close that passage when it's not in use. So either the previous owner was a belt-and-suspenders kind of guy or the spider gasket within started leaking and he didn't know it was possible to replace it.

As for calculations.... are you sure of the volume? If so, divide volume by surface to get average depth and then drain whatever percentage of that down. For simplified math, say the pool is 30X40 feet. 1200 square feet. 40000 gallons/7.48 gallons per cubic foot is 5347, call it 5400 ft³ 5400/1200= 4.5 average depth. 2/3 of that is 3'. So measure down 3 feet from the water line and stop there. If you time how long it takes to drop an inch, crunching the numbers to estimate time should be pretty easy.

The only thing I have (I can't think of a good way to measure it since the sides of the deep end are sloped down (google indicates it's a "hopper" shape?). Like the second from the top in the below picture:


Other than that, I also have this piece of paper from when it was first being built back in the late 80's where they were apparently laying out the design. It seems to say that it is 10' deep at the deepest point and 4' at the shallowest. Most calculators come out around 40,000 so I'm guessing that's right? If the average depth is somewhere around 7' (not exactly because of the hopper shape but still, does this mean I need to empty it to around 4' below the water line?

 

[Richard320]

Re: Opening pool with "dead" water

The only thing I have (I can't think of a good way to measure it since the sides of the deep end are sloped down (google indicates it's a "hopper" shape?). Like the second from the top in the below picture:
View attachment 60751

Other than that, I also have this piece of paper from when it was first being built back in the late 80's where they were apparently laying out the design. It seems to say that it is 10' deep at the deepest point and 4' at the shallowest. Most calculators come out around 40,000 so I'm guessing that's right? If the average depth is somewhere around 7' (not exactly because of the hopper shape but still, does this mean I need to empty it to around 4' below the water line?

Thereabouts is what I get, too.

 

[Yarrbossa]

Re: Opening pool with "dead" water

It's also worth noting that I said this pool is plaster (and I still think it is on the bottom), but on the sides it appears to be some smoother material. I'm guessing this is common? I know the prior owner painted the pool with some epoxy paint every 5 years judging by the receipts. Is it still right to call it a plaster pool or is it something else? I don't think it's completely relevant to the current situation but I want to be able to accurately describe it in the future.

 

[Richard320]

Re: Opening pool with "dead" water

It's also worth noting that I said this pool is plaster (and I still think it is on the bottom), but on the sides it appears to be some smoother material. I'm guessing this is common? I know the prior owner painted the pool with some epoxy paint every 5 years judging by the receipts. Is it still right to call it a plaster pool or is it something else? I don't think it's completely relevant to the current situation but I want to be able to accurately describe it in the future.

Yours is called a composite pool. The floor is still plaster, so that's what you use for levels.

PS: I remembered this link from an old thread, You might find it interesting The Pool Project

 

[Yarrbossa]

Re: Opening pool with "dead" water

Yours is called a composite pool. The floor is still plaster, so that's what you use for levels.

PS: I remembered this link from an old thread, You might find it interesting The Pool Project

That's going to be perfect for whenever I fully drain and repaint this thing. Thanks!

 

[Yarrbossa]

Drained the pool today. Took about 6.5 hours to ditch about 2/3 of the water.

http://i.imgur.com/MsdTL6x.jpg

This is about the point where I'm questioning the wisdom of trusting strangers on the internet.

I'm trying to calculate how many hours is going to take to refill, and I have 2 hoses going. Together they can fill a 5 gallon bucket to the brim in 25 seconds. So am I looking at 36 hours to refill? This pool is bigger than I thought...

 

[GDN]

This is about the point where I'm questioning the wisdom of trusting strangers on the internet.

Strangers today, respected friends in just a few days, with clear blue water.

Lots of chlorine bottles in your near future, and clear blue water in no time.

 

[Yarrbossa]

Strangers today, respected friends in just a few days, with clear blue water.

Lots of chlorine bottles in your near future, and clear blue water in no time.

Let's hope so!

I bought 15 bottles of chlorine from WalMart in preparation of SLAMing the pool. Will probably need to make another run before it's all over...

Anyways I'll report back in 2 days time with test result and go from there.

 

[Teald024]

Yeah, 36-37 hours. It isn't fun but it will be worth the wait.
I'm going to play Devils Advocate for a minute. Why do you put more trust in a pool store clerk? Lol. We can point you to loads of science-based articles demonstrating the accuracy and repeatability of our process. Ask a pool store clerk how they got their basis for advice.
I tried to subtly hint to you a couple times that you do have a very large pool. to put it in perspective, my neighbor has a kidney shape with just over 5k gallons.

I'll look for that post in 36 hours with you full test results. We got you back on this!

 

[Yarrbossa]

Yeah, 36-37 hours. It isn't fun but it will be worth the wait.
I'm going to play Devils Advocate for a minute. Why do you put more trust in a pool store clerk? Lol. We can point you to loads of science-based articles demonstrating the accuracy and repeatability of our process. Ask a pool store clerk how they got their basis for advice.
I tried to subtly hint to you a couple times that you do have a very large pool. to put it in perspective, my neighbor has a kidney shape with just over 5k gallons.

I'll look for that post in 36 hours with you full test results. We got you back on this!

I trust them even less! I dropped in the one time to test my water (before learning I had to cycle the filter for a while) and the guy immediately tried to sell me some random system that's "better" than a salt water generator. What honestly makes me have trust in this community already is reading through countless threads with progress pictures where everytime at the end it's crystal clear doing the same process.

I'm wondering how the CYA got so high in the first place. Is it possible the prior owner had the CYA levels that high and just compensated by adding a ton of chlorine tablets(she did have 4 skimmers)? What causes it to get so high in the first place? I'd love to avoid doing anything on purpose that causes me to do this in the future.

 

[Richard320]

I trust them even less! I dropped in the one time to test my water (before learning I had to cycle the filter for a while) and the guy immediately tried to sell me some random system that's "better" than a salt water generator. What honestly makes me have trust in this community already is reading through countless threads with progress pictures where everytime at the end it's crystal clear doing the same process.

I'm wondering how the CYA got so high in the first place. Is it possible the prior owner had the CYA levels that high and just compensated by adding a ton of chlorine tablets(she did have 4 skimmers)? What causes it to get so high in the first place? I'd love to avoid doing anything on purpose that causes me to do this in the future.

Here's how. From an old post of mine

We'll take a 16000 gallon pool, because that's what I have. On a fresh fill, prominent national pool chain recommends 2.5 pounds pf stabilizer per 10,000 gallons, which works out nicely to 4 pounds which brings CYA to 30.

With an average loss of 2 PPM/Day or 14 ppm/week, I'll have added 8.6 PPM/CYA if I used trichlor pucks perfectly. And they recommend a weekly "shock" of dichlor between 5 and 10 FC.... 2-3 oz per 10,000 gallons. Split the difference; I'll add 4 oz. CYA went up another .9.

So..by the end of week one, I have added 9.5 more CYA. It is now 39.5. Mimimum FC for that is 3, so I'm probably okay.

Week two, up to 49 CYA.
Week three, 58.5. Minimum FC should be 5, but they recommend 3 as ideal, so the pool looks a bit hazy. So I'll toss in a little extra dichlor "shock" to jack FC up to 10. Which adds another 6.4 CYA. Keeping count? We're up to 64.9 now.

That caught the algae just in time.. we had two weeks of good luck. A steady diet of pucks and 4 oz. "shock" each week only added another 19, up to 73.9 now.

Week 6 it started looking funky, so we "shocked"it once again. CYA is up to 99.3. But minimum FC to keep algae at bay is 8, and we're still holding things to 3, because prominent national chain's preprinted sheet shows that as ideal. So algae got a toehold and the pool has a bit of a tint. So we throw two whole bags of dichlor in which jacks it another 7.6 by the time week 7 is over, we're at 116.4, because we had pucks in the floater the whole time.

So...in 7 weeks, from 30 to 116.4. Let's say there are no more algae outbreaks because they sold me a huge bucket of phos-free and another of yellow-out monopersulfate "shock" Nothing but the pucks and the extra 4 oz of dichlor "shock" weekly. So the next 7 weeks added 66.5, which brings the total to 182.9 CYA.

Now if we didn't understand this and things looked a bit hazy, we might throw an extra puck or two in the floater every couple weeks, which will drive it over 200 easily.

 

[Teald024]

What honestly makes me have trust in this community already is reading through countless threads with progress pictures where everytime at the end it's crystal clear doing the same process.

I'm wondering how the CYA got so high in the first place. Is it possible the prior owner had the CYA levels that high and just compensated by adding a ton of chlorine tablets(she did have 4 skimmers)? What causes it to get so high in the first place? I'd love to avoid doing anything on purpose that causes me to do this in the future.

And you too will have crystal clear water to enjoy!! You'll also have a thicker wallet since you don't have to pay a pool service or buy those silly chemicals from the pool $tore.

Richard had a pretty detailed explanation, I'll be more blunt. Trichlor and dichlor tablets and their overuse cause your CYA to be high. The way to avoid this is to use regular bleach or invest in a salt water generator.
Following proper closing and opening procedures also will go a long way to make life easy in the spring time.

Speaking of tablets, I was looking through your pictures and did not see a tablet dispenser in the piping. It looks like the previous owners used either a floater or just put the tablets in the skimmer.

 

[jagger2005]

Richard's post on the incremental rise in CYA is a classic!

 

[Yarrbossa]

And you too will have crystal clear water to enjoy!! You'll also have a thicker wallet since you don't have to pay a pool service or buy those silly chemicals from the pool $tore.

Richard had a pretty detailed explanation, I'll be more blunt. Trichlor and dichlor tablets and their overuse cause your CYA to be high. The way to avoid this is to use regular bleach or invest in a salt water generator.
Following proper closing and opening procedures also will go a long way to make life easy in the spring time.

Speaking of tablets, I was looking through your pictures and did not see a tablet dispenser in the piping. It looks like the previous owners used either a floater or just put the tablets in the skimmer.

Yeah, she mentioned at one point that she just added pucks to the skimmers. She has a pretty hefty stash of pool chemicals laying around. I plan on selling the leftovers on craigslist, but is there anything worth keeping around? Here's a rough inventory I took over the winter while bored. Obviously keep the DE powder, baking soda, and maybe stabilizer (in case I ever need to raise CYA?), but is there anything else worth keeping around?

Name	Size	Quantity
Shock max Blue	1lb	5
HTH Shock	1lb	4
Baking soda	12lb	0.5
Bioguard algicide	1 quart	1
Squamate algicide	1 quart	1
Clorox Shock	1lb	1
HTH stabilizer	4lb	0.75
HTH pH minus	7lb	2.1
Diatomaceous earth powder	25lb	0.8
Nava 3" chlorine tablets	50lb	0.5

I would love to get a SWG for the pool, although I don't think that'll happen until next summer. It's definitely in the works though, I think it would totally be worth it long term.

In other news, we're planning on getting rain tomorrow. Probably not too much but hey, any little bit can help fill this pool.

Thanks again for everyone's advice and encouragement.

 

[faby3003]

I would get rid if the shock and maybe the algicide. I would keep everything else. The tabs may be useful if you go on vacation, although you probably don't need to keep all 25lbs. Maybe just 10-20 tabs if you have any vacations this summer.