Water softener installation!!

[JoyfulNoise]

Hmm, I have a mystery valve under my kitchen sink, unused. I suspected it was either hard or soft (depending on what the sink is connected to). But I haven't figured out how to know, nor why it would be there. I guess I could test it with my trusty K-2006! I thought maybe the kitchen had both hard and soft so that one could be for the dishes (soft water for the main faucet) and the other could be for a filtered drinking water faucet (hard water for those that don't want to consume soft water). I'll have to figure it out.

My city water tastes so bad, I added the whole-house filter plus an RO under the kitchen sink. I plumbed the refrigerator's ice maker to the RO, which has it's own filter, so I can get tripled filtered water at the fridge if I want.

I didn't realize my under sink RO was using water to make water. Is that a given? Or do different models do it differently? I only use that for drinking, cooking and ice, so hopefully I'm not wasting too much. I do my dishes in unfiltered water.

If it is truly a reverse-osmosis system, then, by definition, there must be a waste line. It’s usually a plastic 1/4” line that’s hooked up to your sink waste pipe with a saddle clamp. If the RO unit doesn’t have a powered permeate pump (essentially a hydraulic powered water pump that pushes treated water back into the input line and raises the input pressure), then the efficiency will be very low - it takes multiple gallons of input water to produce a single gallon of RO water. RO is only efficient when the input pressure is high (> 150psi) and the water is pretreated to remove calcium and chlorine. Advanced whole house RO systems will either use a small salt based softener to pretreat the water OR they will use a Stenner pump to inject scale inhibitors (phosphonic acid) to control membrane scaling. Efficient whole house RO systems can easily run $10k-$15k to install and they usually require a 250-500 gallon water storage tank with a variable speed water pump to repressurize the water into the house supply. You can get very fancy with these systems but then you’re basically building a small-scale water treatment plant in your garage or basement. Not worth it at all in my opinion.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Matt, yeah you’re kinda stuck down there with the water being so friggen expensive. My whole house is plumbed with soft water including the backyard hose bib. Then I have an r/o system under the sink that has a stand alone water faucet on the counter for cooking/drinking water, and a line running to the fridge for ice/water. I wouldn’t have purchased a house without one, as the water here tastes awful!

You wouldn’t want to run softened water to the fridge anyway, as it would have no benefit on quality/taste. I’m surprised that both your hot and cold at the kitchen sink isn’t plumbed soft, because it would save your faucet from deteriorating over time.

Dirk, good point on the back flow on that line. I currently have that little dohikky on my hose bibs front and back. As far as trenching a line, it would be a real PITA because I have a block wall with footing on the side of my house that would be a nightmare to dig under for the line. In the bottom center of that wall is a drainage block that I can snake the hose through, but an exposed pipe would not be a good idea.
Figgure for the few weeks we go away a year, a heavy duty hose run front to back for the time we’re gone, should suffice.



Take the filter out of your fridge, you do not need it, as the water from the R/O is 10 times cleaner then that filter will ever clean. It wastes you money, and can add unwanted water flow restrictions to your ice maker and water supply. You wouldn’t buy a bottle of Dasani then run it through a filter before drinking it would you?

Yeah, my kitchen sink is part of the kitchen island/bar so the plumbing runs under the concrete floor. There would be no easy way to do RO over to it. So I just put a cartridge filter (active charcoal + silver) on the input line to remove VOCs and chlorine. They last about 6 months so it’s just a consumable expense. The fridge water has calcium but it’s not so bad - removing the taste compounds is what it’s important to me.

There will no doubt be a kitchen remodel some time in my future, we’ll address these issues then

 

[isriam]

that just gave me a good idea. i wonder if you could insert a filter on your pool line to take some calcium out without having to install a softener? I'm in phoenix and have the exact same problem but I am not sure the easiest way to fix my water. you know, like the filters they put on misting systems so they dont clog them up? even if it reduced the city water calcium by 50% would be worth it.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

that just gave me a good idea. i wonder if you could insert a filter on your pool line to take some calcium out without having to install a softener? I'm in phoenix and have the exact same problem but I am not sure the easiest way to fix my water. you know, like the filters they put on misting systems so they dont clog them up? even if it reduced the city water calcium by 50% would be worth it.

It’s possible but they don’t treat large volumes of water. I saw one that says it treats up to 6000 gallons but It did not specify the input hardness so that 6000 figure could easily go way down. You’d also need to know how much water you’re adding so you can know what your replacement frequency is. If you have to replace it every month and they cost $40-$50 each, then you could easily have bought yourself a water softener within a year or two

 

[Arizonarob]

Yeah, my kitchen sink is part of the kitchen island/bar so the plumbing runs under the concrete floor. There would be no easy way to do RO over to it. So I just put a cartridge filter (active charcoal + silver) on the input line to remove VOCs and chlorine. They last about 6 months so it’s just a consumable expense. The fridge water has calcium but it’s not so bad - removing the taste compounds is what it’s important to me.

There will no doubt be a kitchen remodel some time in my future, we’ll address these issues then

I’m curious now. I have the same kitchen island sink setup like you, but they ran a conduit from the island to behind the fridge separate from the standard in wall fridge water hook up. They simply snaked a water line through the conduit from the r/o to behind the fridge. I know a lot of houses we looked at had this conduit installed, even though some houses didn’t have a soft water system installed. Sort of a pre-plumb. Maybe poke around behind the fridge and under the sink, to see if you have one. My house was built in 98, so maybe after a certain build year, they started including it.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I’m curious now. I have the same kitchen island sink setup like you, but they ran a conduit from the island to behind the fridge separate from the standard in wall fridge water hook up. They simply snaked a water line through the conduit from the r/o to behind the fridge. I know a lot of houses we looked at had this conduit installed, even though some houses didn’t have a soft water system installed. Sort of a pre-plumb. Maybe poke around behind the fridge and under the sink, to see if you have one. My house was built in 98, so maybe after a certain build year, they started including it.

Yeah, there’s almost definitely a sleeve that runs the water pipe around. Let me put it this - RO to the fridge is just not important enough for me to bother spending the money on it. When the kitchen is remodeled, I can add all the bells & whistles then.

 

[bdavis466]

You better stay on top of your CSI in the showers or you'll start dissolving the grout

 

[Dirk]

Dirk, good point on the back flow on that line. I currently have that little dohikky on my hose bibs front and back. As far as trenching a line, it would be a real PITA because I have a block wall with footing on the side of my house that would be a nightmare to dig under for the line. In the bottom center of that wall is a drainage block that I can snake the hose through, but an exposed pipe would not be a good idea.
Figgure for the few weeks we go away a year, a heavy duty hose run front to back for the time we’re gone, should suffice.



Take the filter out of your fridge, you do not need it, as the water from the R/O is 10 times cleaner then that filter will ever clean. It wastes you money, and can add unwanted water flow restrictions to your ice maker and water supply. You wouldn’t buy a bottle of Dasani then run it through a filter before drinking it would you?

I run pipe all the time under concrete walks. I've gone up to four feet, but more is possible. Water jet, no digging. I can describe if you've never seen it done. But like you say, hose is fine.

I never change the fridge filter, 'cause I know it can't get dirty. But the flow at the fridge is bad, maybe removing the filter will help that. Good idea (as long as the filter isn't part of the seal).

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If it is truly a reverse-osmosis system, then, by definition, there must be a waste line. It’s usually a plastic 1/4” line that’s hooked up to your sink waste pipe with a saddle clamp.

I believe it does have the waste line. I incorrectly assumed it was just for the crud removed, not gallons per gallon served. Bummer.

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You better stay on top of your CSI in the showers or you'll start dissolving the grout

Plaster is for pools. Fiberglass is for showers!

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Yeah, there’s almost definitely a sleeve that runs the water pipe around. Let me put it this - RO to the fridge is just not important enough for me to bother spending the money on it. When the kitchen is remodeled, I can add all the bells & whistles then.

No digging, no conduit... Laminars!

 

[Arizonarob]

I never change the fridge filter, 'cause I know it can't get dirty. But the flow at the fridge is bad, maybe removing the filter will help that. Good idea (as long as the filter isn't part of the seal.

Exactly. You should be able to take it out no problem, or some refrigerators have a bypass cap that goes in place of the filter. My fridge you just simply remove the filter.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

You better stay on top of your CSI in the showers or you'll start dissolving the grout

I roll around naked in concrete dust prior to every shower to make sure my grout stays happy

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I run pipe all the time under concrete walks. I've gone up to four feet, but more is possible. Water jet, no digging. I can describe if you've never seen it done. But like you say, hose is fine.

DITCH WITCH!!! I love those things!!

I believe it does have the waste line. I incorrectly assumed it was just for the crud removed, not gallons per gallon served. Bummer.

Pull the waste line next time you run the RO and measure the number of cups of water you send down the drain for every 8oz of RO water you make.

Plaster is for pools. Fiberglass is for showers!

That’s just not right

 

[JoyfulNoise]

This is a good schematic for how a permeate pump fits in an RO system. The hydraulic energy from the waste line helps to create a greater pressure across the RO membrane by reducing the pressure on the output (permeate) side of the membrane. The higher the differential pressure across an RO membrane, the more efficient the membrane is.

https://www.h2odistributors.com/global/install_diagrams/reverse-osmosis-exploded-diagram-permeate-pump.pdf

 

[Dirk]

DITCH WITCH!!! I love those things!!

Pull the waste line next time you run the RO and measure the number of cups of water you send down the drain for every 8oz of RO water you make.

I know not Ditch Witch. I connect a hose to a length of PVC, and drill holes in a PVC cap on the other end to make a water drill. Then shove it into the dirt under the concrete. It eventually works it's way to the other side. If you're running PVC, you "drill" with the pipe you're running. Once the drill is through, you cut off the ends and glue it in place. That's an old trick. Works better with iron pipe, 'cause you can hammer on it. But if the soil isn't too hard, the PVC works fine and the pipe is run when done.

If your slab is laid on sand, and you don't have to run the pipe much below the bottom of the slab, then it goes through like budda!

To get my two 2" solar pipes under a walk way, I found a big 2' auger bit at Home Depot and managed to drill 2' in from each side to get under a 4' slab. That wasn't as much fun, but it worked.

I'll try the RO waste experiment. Do you mean while I' filling a glass of water? Does it make RO on the fly? Or do I have to catch it doing it when it's doing it at some other point in time?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Here’s how I fixed up the ditch under the crepe myrtle tree -





I used Scott’s Sierra Red mulch and bordered the drip line with river stones that I happen to have in a pile near my front yard. The crepe myrtle is a bit stressed because the trench ran only a foot from the trunk and cut through a lot of the surface roots. I put down a good helping of compost, sulfur and fertilizer and gave it all a good soak before topping it off with the mulch. I’ll give it some good waterings from the hose over the next few weeks and hope he feels better. Normally crepe myrtle’s are fairly drought-tolerant but we beat his roots up pretty good.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I know not Ditch Witch. I connect a hose to a length of PVC, and drill holes in a PVC cap on the other end to make a water drill. Then shove it into the dirt under the concrete. It eventually works it's way to the other side. If you're running PVC, you "drill" with the pipe you're running. Once the drill is through, you cut off the ends and glue it in place. That's an old trick. Works better with iron pipe, 'cause you can hammer on it. But if the soil isn't too hard, the PVC works fine and the pipe is run when done.

If your slab is laid on sand, and you don't have to run the pipe much below the bottom of the slab, then it goes through like budda!

To get my two 2" solar pipes under a walk way, I found a big 2' auger bit at Home Depot and managed to drill 2' in from each side to get under a 4' slab. That wasn't as much fun, but it worked.

I'll try the RO waste experiment. Do you mean while I' filling a glass of water? Does it make RO on the fly? Or do I have to catch it doing it when it's doing it at some other point in time?

Ditch Witch is the commercial/professional version of what you do with PVC. It’s basically a horizontal drilling rig that uses water and suction to create a subterranean trench. They suction out the mud while using the water to create the “drill”. The waste tankers then drive off to the dump and deposit yards and yards of waste mud. The stuff they leave behind can be useful as fill sand so dumpster-divers such as myself will go to the dump sites and scoop up a few burlap sacks of the stuff. If I need fine washed aggregate, I go down to the wash and dig up the sand deposited in the dry beds by the rivers that swell up in the spring and fall. Nice fine sandy aggregate for free. Yeah, I’m that cheap.

Does your RO system have a small storage tank? If so, you might have to run the faucet until the tank depletes a bit and the RO kicks in.

 

[Dirk]

Does your RO system have a small storage tank? If so, you might have to run the faucet until the tank depletes a bit and the RO kicks in.

Yep, three gallons I think. The whole gizmo is a mystery. I've totally neglected it. Going on three years and I've never done a thing to it. I figured I'd give it some attention if the water ever started tasting bad again. Am I doing anything bad for it by ignoring whatever regular maintenance it might need? Or will my "set it and forget it 'till it squeaks" M.O. work well enough?

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Here’s how I fixed up the ditch under the crepe myrtle tree -

Is this describing what you had to do because of your new soft water autofill line?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Yep, three gallons I think. The whole gizmo is a mystery. I've totally neglected it. Going on three years and I've never done a thing to it. I figured I'd give it some attention if the water ever started tasting bad again. Am I doing anything bad for it by ignoring whatever regular maintenance it might need? Or will my "set it and forget it 'till it squeaks" M.O. work well enough?

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Is this describing what you had to do because of your new soft water autofill line?

Membranes typically need to be replaced from wear and tear as do the sediment and carbon filters. You might look into them a bit as you could be sending a lot of waste water down the drain.

Yes, I backfilled the trench from the hook up of the water softener to the pool autofill line. Post #1 shows the hole in the ground. Since the area was all dug up and the landscape rocks moved, I decided to make it look nicer.

 

[Dirk]

Oh, there's the tree. No wonder not happy! Yes, looks much better now. Perhaps it'll forgive you!

 

[Arizonarob]

Ditch Witch is the commercial/professional version of what you do with PVC. It’s basically a horizontal drilling rig that uses water and suction to create a subterranean trench. They suction out the mud while using the water to create the “drill”.

Matt, you’re referring to something else(I know what you’re talking about, but can’t remember the name of it) This is a ditch witch.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Matt, you’re referring to something else(I know what you’re talking about, but can’t remember the name of it) This is a ditch witch.

Hmmm...you are right. They are tearing up a few local roads around here to widen them and add services (water, gas & electrical upgrades). Both the ditch witch and horizontal drilling rigs are running every day.

I’ll look next time I’m out getting my hourly Dunkin Donuts fix and see if I can get the commercial name.

Either way, I TOTALLY WANT ONE!!!!