Oh that is just beautiful! It is starting to shape up isn't it?? Just a complete maddening experience huh? Makes ya wonder not only how these folks are still in business, but how they're still alive!! :lol:
Vegasmom's Pool Build
- Thread starter Vegasmom
- Start date
Wow, that looks fantastic! Go ahead and hock all that indoor furniture, you won't be needing it soon enough 
You've probably mentioned this somewhere back, but what is your pool finish going to be?
You've probably mentioned this somewhere back, but what is your pool finish going to be?
- Aug 16, 2007
- 300
Thanks, Tngal..it is shaping up. We've had a few more 'issues' (with my deck being done by others) but overall..yes, we're getting there. Maddening is kind of an understatement. Not going to go into detail but met with PB to get a few things finalized, and I'm just amazed at the mentality. I'm not supposed to make a big deal out of anything and just be happy. Yeah, and I guess he'll just keep going about business as usual. I'll say it again....*never* again will I use a pool company.
The very thing I tried to avoid with my precast during grouting happened anyway. I knew it was risky having someone else handle it, but there wasn't much else I could have done. I had API seal everything for me because I didn't have the space to lay everything out and do it myself.
I have 'picture framing' all around my paver edges from the grout. They needed to be sealed well and they weren't. I've worked with sealers for many years and did all the stacked stone on our pool. It took 3 coats but when you put water on it, it beads up like it should. I've also got many 'hollow' spots where the pavers didn't bond properly and day 2 after grouting it's already shifting. What's gonna happen when I fill my pool? They used portland cement to float so much of it but I really think it should have been thinset. So, hopefully the picture frame effect will fade, and my deck won't crack everywhere. After awhile, it just kind of takes it's toll. Sucks the fun and excitement right out of ya. Yes I'm excited about the pool being done and it is beautiful, but alot of these things I saw coming and tried to stop from happening, it just wasn't enough.....
Tres, the finish will be white plaster.
The very thing I tried to avoid with my precast during grouting happened anyway. I knew it was risky having someone else handle it, but there wasn't much else I could have done. I had API seal everything for me because I didn't have the space to lay everything out and do it myself.
I have 'picture framing' all around my paver edges from the grout. They needed to be sealed well and they weren't. I've worked with sealers for many years and did all the stacked stone on our pool. It took 3 coats but when you put water on it, it beads up like it should. I've also got many 'hollow' spots where the pavers didn't bond properly and day 2 after grouting it's already shifting. What's gonna happen when I fill my pool? They used portland cement to float so much of it but I really think it should have been thinset. So, hopefully the picture frame effect will fade, and my deck won't crack everywhere. After awhile, it just kind of takes it's toll. Sucks the fun and excitement right out of ya. Yes I'm excited about the pool being done and it is beautiful, but alot of these things I saw coming and tried to stop from happening, it just wasn't enough.....
Tres, the finish will be white plaster.
geez, I did a better job grouting my tile floors (indoor) and I had never done it before! You would think so-called "professionals" would at least get it mixed and floated correctly so it would stay nice for longer than a couple days!!!!
Again, so sorry you are living in such a nightmare of apparent incompetence, but you WILL have a gorgeous pool when you get done!
Again, so sorry you are living in such a nightmare of apparent incompetence, but you WILL have a gorgeous pool when you get done!
Good grief! I'm with MQ....that's pretty sad for "professional". I'm not trying pile it on though. I know where you are (to a very small degree). I've said for several weeks now that the thrill of getting a pool has been absolutely sucked right out of me as well. We just want them to get done and off our property don't we?? I'd bet you're like me...you'll be out there this summer fixing this! :lol:
- Aug 16, 2007
- 300
Thanks for the support ladies. It's so disheartening and I'm trying to keep the faith but it gets tougher with each new issue.
The paver guy sent someone over to look at it, and he saw it and said he didn't like the way they grouted and wants to do it over. He's going to check into a different type of grout, one that has some flex to it. I think part of the problem is they didn't pack it in firmly enough also, because on the piece in the photo I took if you push down with your finger, it becomes a hole.
I've been told the picture framing will fade in time, but I've also read it's irreversible. So, I dunno. It's just a shame because it looked nice and clean before it was grouted. The thought of spray deck didn't sound good 8 months ago, but it sure would have been easier, and cheaper, than what we've done.
The paver guy sent someone over to look at it, and he saw it and said he didn't like the way they grouted and wants to do it over. He's going to check into a different type of grout, one that has some flex to it. I think part of the problem is they didn't pack it in firmly enough also, because on the piece in the photo I took if you push down with your finger, it becomes a hole.
I've been told the picture framing will fade in time, but I've also read it's irreversible. So, I dunno. It's just a shame because it looked nice and clean before it was grouted. The thought of spray deck didn't sound good 8 months ago, but it sure would have been easier, and cheaper, than what we've done.
I'd suggest using a grout bag and completely filling the void beneath the joint. May be a bit difficult with joint that narrow.
They probably didn't thinset due to the size of the pavers. It would be tough to get a proper bond on units that big with thinset unless the substrate is perfectly plumb (and I mean like glass!)
The grout voids are probably due to the pavers being so thick and the joints small. It's going to be a lot of work, but they need to remove the bad spots and really force the grout down into the joints to repair it.
Did they install any sealant joints? With a mass that large there should be some sealant joints installed to allow for some slight movement. It doesn't look like it'll get much sun, so hopefully expansion/ contraction isn't a big issue there.
It's possible that a product like "Color Enhancer Pro" will reduce that "picture frame" effect. But it will also alter the color of the precast. It might be worth testing in a small out of the way area to see if you like it or not.
The grout voids are probably due to the pavers being so thick and the joints small. It's going to be a lot of work, but they need to remove the bad spots and really force the grout down into the joints to repair it.
Did they install any sealant joints? With a mass that large there should be some sealant joints installed to allow for some slight movement. It doesn't look like it'll get much sun, so hopefully expansion/ contraction isn't a big issue there.
It's possible that a product like "Color Enhancer Pro" will reduce that "picture frame" effect. But it will also alter the color of the precast. It might be worth testing in a small out of the way area to see if you like it or not.
- Aug 16, 2007
- 300
They're here now removing the grout. It does seem the problem is mostly from the voids not being completely filled. I don't think the pavers are moving (now anyway) even though you hear a hollow sound when you walk on some of them. Tres, not sure what you mean when you say sealant joints. The existing pad they laid upon had expansion joints, and in the 3 years it's been down we had a few cracks (in the joints) but no visible movement in the slab.
I spent about 3 hours pressure washing yesterday and it looks a little better. There was quite a bit of grout residue left on and I removed quite a bit, but the picture framing is still evident. I told the guys this morning "NO WATER" To just brush the grout off with a broom and that way I can get another coat of sealer on them before regrouting.
They do have some grout bags, and they'll mix it up a bag at a time and work in smaller sections as opposed to how they did it the first time. They mixed it all up in a big wheelbarrow and set it on the joints but didn't work it in right away so a lot of it dried out.
So, that's where we are today. Need to get a couple things done this week for inspection hopefully next Monday.
I spent about 3 hours pressure washing yesterday and it looks a little better. There was quite a bit of grout residue left on and I removed quite a bit, but the picture framing is still evident. I told the guys this morning "NO WATER" To just brush the grout off with a broom and that way I can get another coat of sealer on them before regrouting.
They do have some grout bags, and they'll mix it up a bag at a time and work in smaller sections as opposed to how they did it the first time. They mixed it all up in a big wheelbarrow and set it on the joints but didn't work it in right away so a lot of it dried out.
So, that's where we are today. Need to get a couple things done this week for inspection hopefully next Monday.
Vegasmom said:
AHHH, there's the problem. It is probably the stuff they did near the end that was way too dry that caused the majority of the problem! If it is too dry going in, it will not have the 'cure time' necessary.
At least I can say, for all your problems, the pb or subs seem willing to redo the faulty work... hope that is not costing you extra $$ as well as stress and time!
Vegasmom said:
What I mean is that every 15 feet (+/-) instead of a grout joint there should be sealant installed between the pavers. All materials expand and contract when subjected to varying temperatures. Sealant joints allow the field materials to expand and contract without adverse problems. The sealant joints isolate one large mass into smaller masses that can then each move indepentently of each other. We're not talking a lot of movement, fractions of an inch. But that means the difference between whether it cracks or not.
Since you have precast sitting on top of a concrete slab there's not a lot of risk of differential movement between the two because they are like materials, but there will be some because the precast will have more sun exposure. If there are no sealant joints, eventually you may see some cracking in the joints AND the pavers. It's hard to tell just by looking at the photos, but it looks like a pretty large mass of pavers. I would think they would want to get some sealant joints in there to be safe.
Vegasmom said:
If you're seeing cracks in the joints you're probably talking about control joints rather than expansion joints. A control joint is basically a sawcut or tooled joint that only cuts into the concrete about 1/2" or so. All concrete cracks and the purpose of a control joint is to give the concrete a nice, straight line to crack along. An expansion joint on the other hand is a wider joint and is the full depth of the concrete. These get some kind of filler material (redwood strip, mastic, sealant, foam). If you have any expansion joints I hope like heck that they didn't just install the pavers right over them because I can practically guarantee you will get cracks in the pavers over them. When installing a floor material over expansion joints, a crack isolation membrane is required combined with sealant joints in the finish material.
The hollow sound is a little scary! Maybe that's just because the pavers are so thick.
- Aug 16, 2007
- 300
The Mermaid Queen said:
For the most part, no...not costing extra. With the exception of the mismeasure on the precast, which did cost us more..twice, and some pieces that were ordered wrong I still paid for. The paver guy (who hasn't asked for any money for the work done, and not up front like most contractors) has been great. He is taking the steps necessary to fix things. The pool build overall has turned out nicely, and the things that were redone were only to make it work because they didn't follow the plan to specs. Owner will argue that with me but whatever. Bottom line, my pool is almost done and I'm very happy, even with all the insanity that came with this build. I don't imagine it would have been any different with another company. They are *all* the same, as I've heard from many homeowners and other contractors that work with pool co.'s on a regular basis. As bad as it got sometimes, you are right...it could have been worse!
- Aug 16, 2007
- 300
TresW said:
I'm going to mention this to paver guy tomorrow. I had to leave the house today and it looks like they still have more grout removal to do tomorrow. Not an easy job for them. Learning experience!
TresW said:
Yes, I meant control joints. And they removed some of the hollow sounding pavers (the ones closest to the deck drain and coping) They came out really easy and didn't break. I'm going to get something signed that if I have trouble with the other ones in the future, they'll take care of it.
- Aug 16, 2007
- 300
Update: I'm waiting to hear from someone who I've asked to regrout the pavers. After they removed the grout and replaced a few that were loose (not just hollow but visibly moving) I still have some pavers with movement. I'm not comfortable with having the same guys regrout. This is not what they do on a regular basis and at this point, I don't have the time or patience for more mistakes. I actually think the paver guy will be relieved but I haven't locked in this other co. yet so have not brought it up.
I'm dealing with a very irritating and tricky issue now with efflorescence. So much water has been put upon these pavers and there wasn't a good seal on them from the start. I'm not allowing any more work done until I can get a good coat on, which I can't do until I fix the effloresence. I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle with this deck, geez!
Other than that, I've got my pool code gate coming Tues. and most of the electrical stuff has been taken care of so we should be ready for inspection next week.
I need to go out there and tackle the deck again but I'm waiting for a giant crane and a massive Canary Palm the hubby bought for our courtyard to arrive. He left for work, and I get to stand there and watch as a 20,000lb tree comes across my front yard and in between my house and my neighbor's.
I've never seen a bigger hole dug for a tree!
I'm dealing with a very irritating and tricky issue now with efflorescence. So much water has been put upon these pavers and there wasn't a good seal on them from the start. I'm not allowing any more work done until I can get a good coat on, which I can't do until I fix the effloresence. I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle with this deck, geez!
Other than that, I've got my pool code gate coming Tues. and most of the electrical stuff has been taken care of so we should be ready for inspection next week.
I need to go out there and tackle the deck again but I'm waiting for a giant crane and a massive Canary Palm the hubby bought for our courtyard to arrive. He left for work, and I get to stand there and watch as a 20,000lb tree comes across my front yard and in between my house and my neighbor's.
I've never seen a bigger hole dug for a tree!
No pics of the tree hole? :lol:
I hope this get's finished up soon! You so deserve to float in your pool on a raft sippin margaritas!
I hope this get's finished up soon! You so deserve to float in your pool on a raft sippin margaritas!
Quote: "I'm dealing with a very irritating and tricky issue now with efflorescence. So much water has been put upon these pavers and there wasn't a good seal on them from the start."
Good grief, I don't think there's anything that can go wrong that you haven't dealt with!! Wait until all the grouting is done because you may get some more efflorescence after that. When that's done it'll probably need a good acid-washing, then pavers and grout can be sealed together. Luckily most of the time with efflorescence it's a one-time event.
That tree sounds like a monster!
OK, just so you know you're not the only one that has to deal with lamebrains, our fence was just installed. Our neighbors' fence looks horrible, so I instructed them to extend our fence parallel to theirs in the front yard to cover up the ugliness. After they drilled and set the posts, I called the guy to let him know they forgot the posts adjacent to the neighbors' fence. He apologized and said he'd take care of it. They finished up and I guess he didn't think I'd check it or something. I climbed up and looked down and sure enough, they attached the new fencing to the neighbors' fence (which looks like it could collapse any time). Argh! On top of that, we had a yard area enclosed with board-on-board so we could store the kids' go-carts and electric cars in there. I specified 2 gates 48" each. I measured them last night and one has a clear opening of 39", the other 42". Both are too narrow for the carts. Luckily I discovered these things before paying, so I've held back 1500 bucks until he fixes this. It is SO annoying when you give specific instructions and people choose to follow certain things and ignore others, I know you can relate!
Good grief, I don't think there's anything that can go wrong that you haven't dealt with!! Wait until all the grouting is done because you may get some more efflorescence after that. When that's done it'll probably need a good acid-washing, then pavers and grout can be sealed together. Luckily most of the time with efflorescence it's a one-time event.
That tree sounds like a monster!
OK, just so you know you're not the only one that has to deal with lamebrains, our fence was just installed. Our neighbors' fence looks horrible, so I instructed them to extend our fence parallel to theirs in the front yard to cover up the ugliness. After they drilled and set the posts, I called the guy to let him know they forgot the posts adjacent to the neighbors' fence. He apologized and said he'd take care of it. They finished up and I guess he didn't think I'd check it or something. I climbed up and looked down and sure enough, they attached the new fencing to the neighbors' fence (which looks like it could collapse any time). Argh! On top of that, we had a yard area enclosed with board-on-board so we could store the kids' go-carts and electric cars in there. I specified 2 gates 48" each. I measured them last night and one has a clear opening of 39", the other 42". Both are too narrow for the carts. Luckily I discovered these things before paying, so I've held back 1500 bucks until he fixes this. It is SO annoying when you give specific instructions and people choose to follow certain things and ignore others, I know you can relate!
- Aug 16, 2007
- 300
Ok, Casey 
Since I'm killing time waiting for them to fix the crane (does it ever end!?) and in between doing samples of vinegar and bleach (no, not together) on my patio, here ya go...
For perspective, the space between the wall and the start of the pavers is 10.5 feet. Hard to get a good pic because of the tight space and all the bags of dirt.
Since I'm killing time waiting for them to fix the crane (does it ever end!?) and in between doing samples of vinegar and bleach (no, not together) on my patio, here ya go...For perspective, the space between the wall and the start of the pavers is 10.5 feet. Hard to get a good pic because of the tight space and all the bags of dirt.
- Aug 16, 2007
- 300
TresW said:
No kidding! I don't know what else could possibly come up, but nothing would surprise me. I'm worried if I don't seal (keep in mind this is water based penetrating, not coating) I'll get more haze/residue (which is another problem I didn't mention) and more picture framing than I already have. I know I'll need to go back over it after the grout.
Both the bleach and the vinegar samples seem to have worked. I'm not comfortable working with muriatic so I'll do the whole patio with the vinegar probably, then a coat of sealer which will basically act as a grout release. I'm trying to find out though if I need to neutralize it with something beforehand or would letting it dry out for a few days be enough.
TresW said:
Amazing, isn't it? :? Can totally relate. Good that you've got the payment as leverage. We haven't paid for the deck yet..he hasn't asked. I'm fortunate at least that I'm dealing with reasonable people. Good luck to you!
- Aug 16, 2007
- 300
A little off topic, but here's the tree coming in 120' crane bringing a 16' palm in between a 20' or so space. Pretty cool to watch! I video'd for the hubby...
I'm too tired to mess with the deck today but the vinegar should work. If anyone knows about neutralizing or not, I'd appreciate any advice. :-D
120' crane bringing a 16' palm in between a 20' or so space. Pretty cool to watch! I video'd for the hubby...
I'm too tired to mess with the deck today but the vinegar should work. If anyone knows about neutralizing or not, I'd appreciate any advice. :-D