Unique Motor Issue

[ilovemypool90]

I have a Vgreen Variable Speed motor model EVQ165.

Every third or so day the motor turns on (green solid light) but does NOT start running. Slight clicking noise and nothing. No fault light indication. Then, the other couple days, it turns on, starts running and primes then no air out of returns in pool, in pump basket and runs as normal. I can't find a defining factor that indicates whether it will start running or not.

About a month ago I noticed a ton of air was coming out of returns on start up and pump wouldn't keep prime overnight. Found the filter release valve was leaking, so I replaced that. Then noticed some water coming out the back of the seal plate of the pump housing (WhisperFlo). Not between the seal plate and the main housing - it was from motor shaft down back of plate. So I replaced the gasket seal, lubed all O-rings, took whole thing apart and put back together. Lubed and sealed gasket with DAP silicone-latex sealant. Seemed to fix 95% of leak. There is still a noise that sounds like air when pump is off but it is definitely holding water longer. Small leak comes out occasionally (should I have used appropriate silicone? - maybe, might have to redo all of that. There is also a small chip in the impeller where the ceramic o-ring for the shaft seal is inserted - happened when trying to pry out previous seal - but it's on the outside and the seal is still flush). All this might be the issue as to why motor won't start.

BUT, here's the strange part. On the days the pump motor doesn't start turning, if I turn off the electricity to the motor and then turn on again, pump motor starts turning and priming right away. Also, when I was placing the motor back on after placing new seals in, it wouldn't turn. So I tested it when it was removed from pump housing several times, and each time I turned on the electricity it started without fail. When I'd turn it on attached, wouldn't start. I resorted to starting it while removed from the pump housing, running a hose through the basket to prime the system, and it kept the motor going while attaching it to the housing (I'm sure this is a big no-no). It kept running as I bolted it on, and then started every time when I manually turned electricity on after that.

Why would it not work when I attached it to the pump housing, but start every time when it was removed? Would it have anything to do with the mount angle? And if that's the case, why would it struggle when automatic timer comes on, but then not struggle when I then manually turn on.

I think I may have had two issues. First, the leaks. Then, the motor issue. Question is whether the motor issue is due to lack of prime (but then, again, why does motor start up perfectly when removed from housing or when manually turned on after initial failure), or its a control board/electricity issue (but why would the electricity change between the timer turning it "on" and my manual "on"). I use a Pentair Intellicenter to control pool.

Hope this all makes sense.

Any help very much appreciated before I call in a pool repair guy or manually take the whole thing apart again to try and figure it out.

Thank you!

 

[1poolman1]

I have a Vgreen Variable Speed motor model EVQ165.

Every third or so day the motor turns on (green solid light) but does NOT start running. Slight clicking noise and nothing. No fault light indication. Then, the other couple days, it turns on, starts running and primes then no air out of returns in pool, in pump basket and runs as normal. I can't find a defining factor that indicates whether it will start running or not.

About a month ago I noticed a ton of air was coming out of returns on start up and pump wouldn't keep prime overnight. Found the filter release valve was leaking, so I replaced that. Then noticed some water coming out the back of the seal plate of the pump housing (WhisperFlo). Not between the seal plate and the main housing - it was from motor shaft down back of plate. So I replaced the gasket seal, lubed all O-rings, took whole thing apart and put back together. Lubed and sealed gasket with DAP silicone-latex sealant. Seemed to fix 95% of leak. There is still a noise that sounds like air when pump is off but it is definitely holding water longer. Small leak comes out occasionally (should I have used appropriate silicone? - maybe, might have to redo all of that. There is also a small chip in the impeller where the ceramic o-ring for the shaft seal is inserted - happened when trying to pry out previous seal - but it's on the outside and the seal is still flush). All this might be the issue as to why motor won't start.

BUT, here's the strange part. On the days the pump motor doesn't start turning, if I turn off the electricity to the motor and then turn on again, pump motor starts turning and priming right away. Also, when I was placing the motor back on after placing new seals in, it wouldn't turn. So I tested it when it was removed from pump housing several times, and each time I turned on the electricity it started without fail. When I'd turn it on attached, wouldn't start. I resorted to starting it while removed from the pump housing, running a hose through the basket to prime the system, and it kept the motor going while attaching it to the housing (I'm sure this is a big no-no). It kept running as I bolted it on, and then started every time when I manually turned electricity on after that.

Why would it not work when I attached it to the pump housing, but start every time when it was removed? Would it have anything to do with the mount angle? And if that's the case, why would it struggle when automatic timer comes on, but then not struggle when I then manually turn on.

I think I may have had two issues. First, the leaks. Then, the motor issue. Question is whether the motor issue is due to lack of prime (but then, again, why does motor start up perfectly when removed from housing or when manually turned on after initial failure), or its a control board/electricity issue (but why would the electricity change between the timer turning it "on" and my manual "on"). I use a Pentair Intellicenter to control pool.

Hope this all makes sense.

Any help very much appreciated before I call in a pool repair guy or manually take the whole thing apart again to try and figure it out.

Thank you!

Sounds like you have a misaligned motor/sealplate issue. A picture would help.
A VSP motor is a "slow start" motor with extremely low starting torque. It doesn't take much to not allow the motor/impeller to rotate. Once it tries to start but doesn't, the drive goes into fault mode that may not light the alarm led. Turning off power and back on resets the drive.
When the motor was replaced, was there a build up of corrosion on the sealplate at the bolt holes (very common)? Are all the bolts that hold the motor to the sealplate there? Were any of the brass inserts pulled out and then no bolt there (also very common)?

 

[ilovemypool90]

@1poolman1 Thank you very much for responding.

The pump housing is old. There is some corrosion on the bolt holes and bolts, and the system is placed right in the baking TX sun (about to put up a shade).

That is very interesting about the starting torque and misalignment. I do think that could be the issue. The sealplate does not look comfortable. I've attached some pics.

I'm a bit confused about how turning the power off and back on resets the drive and would make a difference. Wouldn't the drive be "reset" after being turned off all night?

Not sure what brass inserts you are talking about (so maybe they are missing), but everything seems to be there. If you wouldn't mind elaborating I can try and answer.

Thanks again.



You can see some water buildup below the motor. Leak is still there, but a lot less than it was (and no air in basket now, as shown). Guessing I'm going to need to buy another seal. Also bought some proper silicon sealant to use this time.

 

[1poolman1]

@1poolman1 Thank you very much for responding.

The pump housing is old. There is some corrosion on the bolt holes and bolts, and the system is placed right in the baking TX sun (about to put up a shade).

That is very interesting about the starting torque and misalignment. I do think that could be the issue. The sealplate does not look comfortable. I've attached some pics.

I'm a bit confused about how turning the power off and back on resets the drive and would make a difference. Wouldn't the drive be "reset" after being turned off all night?

Not sure what brass inserts you are talking about (so maybe they are missing), but everything seems to be there. If you wouldn't mind elaborating I can try and answer.

Thanks again.

View attachment 565425View attachment 565424View attachment 565423View attachment 565422View attachment 565421

You can see some water buildup below the motor. Leak is still there, but a lot less than it was (and no air in basket now, as shown). Guessing I'm going to need to buy another seal. Also bought some proper silicon sealant to use this time.

Air in the pump does not affect the pump running.

If all the bolts that hold the motor are tight, all the inserts are there.

Have you obtained a new gasket, or relying on just the silicone to seal the body? Is the groove that the gasket sits in completely clean before the gasket is inserted?

You can use a very light coating of silicone on the metal portion of the seal before it is driven into the seal plate. Be sure that it is completely seated and that the cup is clean before it is inserted.

You can do the same on the rubber cup that goes into the impeller, but do not get any, or grease, on the sealing surfaces or the seal will leak.

In the third picture, the corrosion of that lower area of the motor is an indication of a seal leak that has been happening for a while. It could be that the chipped impeller is causing it to leak. If I made the repair, I would have to replace the impeller as it would be my liability if the seal leaked.

Are you sure that you removed all the old rubber cup from the impeller? If not you could get both a leak and a binding condition that won't always allow the motor to start.

Yes, the drive would reset at night, but if it doesn't start the next morning because it can't turn, it will fault and need it again.

Best guesses from the pictures and 1700 miles away.

 

[ilovemypool90]

All good to know. Thank you. I was wondering if air would affect the pump running. Glad I can cross that out.

I did replace the gasket. I think next steps might be to order a new impeller and a new seal plate (and, I suppose, another PS-1000 seal). See if that fixes the leak, and hopefully fixes the alignment issue as well.

I definitely removed all the older rubber cup and everything was spotless where the seal was inserted. Really tried hard to make it fix the leak.

I can easily turn the impeller by hand through the pump basket. And I'm still not sure that explains why it will start despite being reset with nothing having changed.

 

[Crocodile]

Poolman is right on about the starting torque. If there is any small resistance, it won't be able to spin up. As to why power cycling it allows it to start... the controller tries to start the motor when it first starts up but will not reattempt if it fails. It may not even realize that it failed (i. e. you don't see a fault code). If there's just a small resistance, it's possible that sometimes it'll start and sometimes it won't.

The next time it fails to start, try to turn the motor shaft by hand without opening the pump or otherwise jostling the equipment. When you open the pump to check the impeller, sometimes the movement can be enough to free it from whatever is causing it to bind. You can access the motor shaft with an allen key through the back of the motor's fan cover. Cut the power to the system before you do this! If you hear or feel any scraping as you turn, it's the impeller rubbing or a piece of debris stuck. If it's smooth all the way around, it's likely the seal. The fact that it had trouble starting up right away when you first replaced the seal sounds like the smoking gun to me. If the pump is losing so much water overnight that the seal is partially dry, that can make it even worse.

Is the motor fairly new? Did it operate without problems for a while before this started happening?

 

[ilovemypool90]

Poolman is right on about the starting torque. If there is any small resistance, it won't be able to spin up. As to why power cycling it allows it to start... the controller tries to start the motor when it first starts up but will not reattempt if it fails. It may not even realize that it failed (i. e. you don't see a fault code). If there's just a small resistance, it's possible that sometimes it'll start and sometimes it won't.

The next time it fails to start, try to turn the motor shaft by hand without opening the pump or otherwise jostling the equipment. When you open the pump to check the impeller, sometimes the movement can be enough to free it from whatever is causing it to bind. You can access the motor shaft with an allen key through the back of the motor's fan cover. Cut the power to the system before you do this! If you hear or feel any scraping as you turn, it's the impeller rubbing or a piece of debris stuck. If it's smooth all the way around, it's likely the seal. The fact that it had trouble starting up right away when you first replaced the seal sounds like the smoking gun to me. If the pump is losing so much water overnight that the seal is partially dry, that can make it even worse.

Is the motor fairly new? Did it operate without problems for a while before this started happening

Poolman is right on about the starting torque. If there is any small resistance, it won't be able to spin up. As to why power cycling it allows it to start... the controller tries to start the motor when it first starts up but will not reattempt if it fails. It may not even realize that it failed (i. e. you don't see a fault code). If there's just a small resistance, it's possible that sometimes it'll start and sometimes it won't.

The next time it fails to start, try to turn the motor shaft by hand without opening the pump or otherwise jostling the equipment. When you open the pump to check the impeller, sometimes the movement can be enough to free it from whatever is causing it to bind. You can access the motor shaft with an allen key through the back of the motor's fan cover. Cut the power to the system before you do this! If you hear or feel any scraping as you turn, it's the impeller rubbing or a piece of debris stuck. If it's smooth all the way around, it's likely the seal. The fact that it had trouble starting up right away when you first replaced the seal sounds like the smoking gun to me. If the pump is losing so much water overnight that the seal is partially dry, that can make it even worse.

Is the motor fairly new? Did it operate without problems for a while before this started happening?

Thank you so much for responding.

Motor is only a year and a half old. Shaft had some mineral deposit when I replaced seals but doesn’t look to be in terrible condition at all. Didn’t have any problems before about a month ago, when I started investigating the leaks.

I have tried to see if the impeller/shaft is facing any resistance after the motor fails to start. Seems to move absolutely fine (but of course I don’t know what it’s supposed to feel like). Can’t hear anything or feel any resistance/movement.

It’s just strange. For example it didn’t start yesterday. Had to manually on/off. Ran the whole schedule until yesterday evening and I hadn’t touched anything, then started fine this morning.

I’m going to take it apart again this weekend and just see if there’s anything unusual after a week’s running. One suspicion I have is that the ‘bumper’ that came with the motor (props the back of it up on the old whisperflo housing) is placing it at a slight angle. I may try and let it just hang on the bolts and see if that keeps it straight. Or shave that rubber down.

 

[ilovemypool90]

@Crocodile should the pump basket remain full/primed overnight?