I am trying to reduce the chlorine in the water to then reduce the chlorine that is absorbed by the skin. The absorption then may enter the body and be detrimental to our health. It will be interesting to see what happens.
Sphagnum moss?
- Thread starter mobrien719
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Could you post an article or study about chlorine absorption in the skin and the potential effects it could have? I would like to know more about it.
The increased odds of problems from poorly sanitized water are drastically more dangerous than the exceedingly minor effects of using normal chlorine levels.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2588570/posts
I just checked out this site....there is a lot of information about chlorine and it's bad effects on the body.
I am not trying to establish the health effects here......
I am simply trying to decrease chlorine use as much as I can. I have already installed the moss unit so that is a non issue now. I think I have the ammonia/low fc taken care of...I will know soon.
I have never had this kind of a problem before and it started before the moss was installed. Even with very low levels of fc, high cya, the pool stayed clear with the moss unit going. Was this because of the moss? Perhaps!
I have always had the pool place test my water until two weeks ago. I was going nuts trying to take care of the pool and spending a whole lot of money. I decided to learn about this myself and this site has been such a great help....thank you. But I am still a newbie and I look forward to learning more.
I just checked out this site....there is a lot of information about chlorine and it's bad effects on the body.
I am not trying to establish the health effects here......
I am simply trying to decrease chlorine use as much as I can. I have already installed the moss unit so that is a non issue now. I think I have the ammonia/low fc taken care of...I will know soon.
I have never had this kind of a problem before and it started before the moss was installed. Even with very low levels of fc, high cya, the pool stayed clear with the moss unit going. Was this because of the moss? Perhaps!
I have always had the pool place test my water until two weeks ago. I was going nuts trying to take care of the pool and spending a whole lot of money. I decided to learn about this myself and this site has been such a great help....thank you. But I am still a newbie and I look forward to learning more.
I knew it was going to be a funny article, I was not let down. 49 person test group, well close the books on this one! 
You might find this interesting: treating-pseudomonas-aeruginosa-hot-tub-rash-in-a-pool-t66780.html
When you have low FC and high CYA you have an unsanitary pool. No moss is going to change that. It's your pool, do what you want, I sincerely hope you don't have a similar experience to the one above. Just understand you won't find much support for that here.
You might find this interesting: treating-pseudomonas-aeruginosa-hot-tub-rash-in-a-pool-t66780.html
When you have low FC and high CYA you have an unsanitary pool. No moss is going to change that. It's your pool, do what you want, I sincerely hope you don't have a similar experience to the one above. Just understand you won't find much support for that here.
Need much more info than an ambiguous reference to a questionable study.
valerie, I understand your desire to keep yourself and your family safe. However, in this case you're chasing ghosts because the science just isn't there. I'm sure chemgeek will be along soon to post references to peer-reviewed, statistically viable studies that show how safe chlorine is. If I remember all of the reading I've done from the volumes and volumes of studies he's posted, most of the hypochlorous acid (the sanitizing part of chlorine) never makes it past the dead skin on the outer layers of your body.
This is just one more example of a news outlet taking barely credible claims and blasting them as news.
valerie, I understand your desire to keep yourself and your family safe. However, in this case you're chasing ghosts because the science just isn't there. I'm sure chemgeek will be along soon to post references to peer-reviewed, statistically viable studies that show how safe chlorine is. If I remember all of the reading I've done from the volumes and volumes of studies he's posted, most of the hypochlorous acid (the sanitizing part of chlorine) never makes it past the dead skin on the outer layers of your body.
This is just one more example of a news outlet taking barely credible claims and blasting them as news.
I love this
Nope, SWG do not generate CL... nope. It's magic... it just zaps the algae dead and generates salt as a by-product...
Nope, SWG do not generate CL... nope. It's magic... it just zaps the algae dead and generates salt as a by-product...
I write about the trio of Barcelona, Spain papers that came out in 2010 in this post with a follow up later in the thread in this post and the subsequent post. There is information on epidemiological studies regarding chlorine and cancer in this post and on dermal absorption later on in that thread in this post. There is also this thread regarding asthma studies that were essentially later overturned as described in this post later in that same thread.
If you aren't the type to wade through the peer-reviewed scientific papers in respected journals, here's the bottom line for you:
If you have any specific questions or concerns, just ask, but be aware that virtually every website that claims chlorine is hazardous also sells some product or has some other financial interest in making such claims. As for news websites that talk about scientific studies that get published, they nearly all sensationalize without reading the detailed studies (something that I always do) since "good news" does not pull in as many ratings points as "bad news". The link you gave illustrates that since the news agencies said the following:
If you aren't the type to wade through the peer-reviewed scientific papers in respected journals, here's the bottom line for you:
- Chlorine itself is not the issue. It reacts quickly with chemicals in your dead skin surface layer known as the stratum corneum. Some deceitful websites have people measure chlorine in water, then have the person put their arm in the water for a time, then have them remove it and measure the chlorine which is gone and they claim it is absorbed into the body. That's simply not true. The chlorine reacts not only with the skin surface layer, but with the ammonia and some organics in sweat and gets used up. What is true is that some of the reaction by-products of chlorine with certain organics can produce a very small amount of some substances that are mutagenic/carcinogenic (more on that later since quantity means everything) and some do have skin absorption or are volatile and can be inhaled.[/*:m:3q1k25ie]
- Virtually all of the studies showing potential issues with chlorine disinfection by-products are with high bather-load pools and most of those studies are also with indoor pools. Even so, as linked to above, those studies do not show serious risks (i.e. it's not correlated the way smoking and cancer or many other activities or substances are correlated with cancer). The amount of disinfection by-products is directly related to bather load and air quality is worse in indoor pools not only due to less circulation of air, but due to a lack of UV from sunlight. Outdoor residential pools have much, much lower bather loads, by a factor of 10 or more, and the exposure of pool water to the UV in sunlight breaks down some of the more irritating volatile by-products and also breaks down chlorine itself into powerful oxidizers called hydroxyl radicals that help to get rid of additional bather waste so that it does not further react with chlorine.[/*:m:3q1k25ie]
- Most indoor commercial/public pools and some outdoor commercial/public pools where studies are done do not use Cyanuric Acid (CYA) in the water so the active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) concentration in such pools is much, much higher than in the pools managed as described on this forum. The active chlorine level in these public pools is 10-30 times higher than pools following the Chlorine / CYA Chart in the Pool School. The "minimum FC" in that chart has the same active chlorine level as 0.07 ppm FC with no CYA -- no, that is not a misprint. When CYA is present, most of the chlorine (FC) is bound to it and it effectively does not react (at least 150 times slower), does not produce disinfection by-products and does not absorb through the skin (see this link).[/*:m:3q1k25ie]
- Since the studies even in the high bather-load indoor pools showed mutagenecity similar to that of highly regulated drinking water, that swimming was not associated with DNA damage, that epidemiological studies have not found relationships between chlorinated water and cancer (when you look at meta-studies, not just one individual study since they are inconsistent), then this combined with having over 10 times lower bather-load (so organic sources that can react with chlorine) and over 10 times lower active chlorine level makes chlorine in residential pools a non-issue with regard to health.[/*:m:3q1k25ie]
If you have any specific questions or concerns, just ask, but be aware that virtually every website that claims chlorine is hazardous also sells some product or has some other financial interest in making such claims. As for news websites that talk about scientific studies that get published, they nearly all sensationalize without reading the detailed studies (something that I always do) since "good news" does not pull in as many ratings points as "bad news". The link you gave illustrates that since the news agencies said the following:
but the actual study results and conclusions were the following (see the full study here):
The news reports missed that part about no DNA damage or that exhaling the same THMs that are in the air that you inhaled is a good thing (i.e. they aren't reacting in your body and your body is flushing them out) and they neglected to mention that the brominated THMs (including bromoform) which are the only ones of concern are higher because the pools in Barcleona are high in bromide -- something that is quietly mentioned in another of the trio of papers (in this paper) where they note the following:
chem geek, you certainly earn the Special Expert moniker! I see people convinced by psudo-science all of the time. Your pouring through the papers and finding the truth past the sensationalism, it's a huge service to us all. Thank you!
I thought I posted a reply to this but I don't see it....so....again I have no wish to debate why I want to lower chlorine in my pool water.....
I had just read that item that I posted and yes it was interesting/funny but with that aside it was interesting to see all of the different responses to reduce chlorine use.....which is my very simple goal.
Does anyone here know of any one who has a moss filter? It looks like I may have gotten past the chlorine demand issue just yesterday....so if the pool stays chlorinated I look forward to seeing if the moss is helping.
I used 12.5 liquid chlorine to get the pool cleared up. I have a chlorinator that takes tabs and I have the trichlo type in it now. I think my cya is way to high but I get conflicting test results. I drained about 25% of the pool last weekend and I may need to drain some more. I have stopped using the dichlor shock for now and will shock with the 12.5 % liquid. If I can get the cya down, I am hoping to be able to reduce the chlorine levels to perhaps 1 ppm with the moss filter helping.
If the moss filter happens to be a poor choice, it is ok, if it isn't I am happy. When I purchased it in early June, I didn't know a thing about pools or how the chemicals worked.
Any suggestions? Thanks for your feedback so far.
I had just read that item that I posted and yes it was interesting/funny but with that aside it was interesting to see all of the different responses to reduce chlorine use.....which is my very simple goal.
Does anyone here know of any one who has a moss filter? It looks like I may have gotten past the chlorine demand issue just yesterday....so if the pool stays chlorinated I look forward to seeing if the moss is helping.
I used 12.5 liquid chlorine to get the pool cleared up. I have a chlorinator that takes tabs and I have the trichlo type in it now. I think my cya is way to high but I get conflicting test results. I drained about 25% of the pool last weekend and I may need to drain some more. I have stopped using the dichlor shock for now and will shock with the 12.5 % liquid. If I can get the cya down, I am hoping to be able to reduce the chlorine levels to perhaps 1 ppm with the moss filter helping.
If the moss filter happens to be a poor choice, it is ok, if it isn't I am happy. When I purchased it in early June, I didn't know a thing about pools or how the chemicals worked.
Any suggestions? Thanks for your feedback so far.
Thanks. I don't want to come across as minimizing the effects seen in the studies. If you swim in a chlorinated indoor high bather-load pool that has high bromide content in the water, you are more likely to show changes in micronuclei (MN) in peripheral blood lymphocytes though not necessarily direct DNA damage (comet assay). Note that there are always chemical and other attacks on DNA that occur as part of life (metabolism) and that nearly all of these are either repaired or occur in regions of DNA that do not trigger cancer. So what is being described in the study is a small degree of increased risk from a higher amount of repaired damage.
Note that much of the study didn't show any issues such as in the paragraph below:
Note that much of the study didn't show any issues such as in the paragraph below:
Where they found a correlation was not in looking at the entire population of their subjects, but in correlating MN with the brominated THMs measured in exhaled breath:
For the overall population, the increase from 3.4 to 4.0 was not statistically significant since the standard deviation for these numbers was 2.4 and 2.8, respectively. In other words, the variation among individuals and over time for this MN in PBLs is huge compared to the difference before and after swimming. Pretty much the only strongly statistically significant correlation was with bromoform vs. MN in PBLs and urine mutagenicity. Even so, it accounted for only 13% and 16% of the variance, respectively. In other words, the study is teasing out correlations from a small difference in a measured parameter that has a lot of variability. That's really not very good science and certainly isn't something where a conclusion could be made with respect to chlorine in terms of health effects.
Do you want to reduce chlorine use, or chlorine levels? Higher CYA levels require higher chlorine levels, but reduces the total amount of chlorine used. Lower CYA levels reduce the chlorine levels, but mean more total chlorine used.
In any case, reducing chlorine levels much below our recommendations, given your CYA level, is simply inviting trouble, both practical (as in needing to fight algae) and health (as in dangerous pathogens in the water). Using moss will not change that in any way.
In any case, reducing chlorine levels much below our recommendations, given your CYA level, is simply inviting trouble, both practical (as in needing to fight algae) and health (as in dangerous pathogens in the water). Using moss will not change that in any way.
How durable is moss in the presence of chlorine? I am used to seeing leaves and twigs slowly disintegrate in my pool due to chlorine. I would expect moss to do the same, being organic.
OK jasonLion...what you just said about the cya/chlorine info is something I didn't know and haven't figured out yet.....I will have to learn more about it....I am confused, but not totally.
I got two readings today from two pool places for cya....one for 175 and fc was 3.1 or so and one for cya of 90 and fc of 3.1 or so......so how do I work with those two #s?
I have cut my chlorinator from high (5) to a 3 today and will watch my fc levels tonight. If I shock the pool, I plan to use 12.5% liquid ch. I am thinking I might just drain off about 6 inches a day for a few days.....but for how long. Do I want to use less chlorine or have less chlorine in the pool? I would say use less and have the least I can have and have healthy water.
My pool is about 11,000 gallons, vinyl and the water looks great.
I got two readings today from two pool places for cya....one for 175 and fc was 3.1 or so and one for cya of 90 and fc of 3.1 or so......so how do I work with those two #s?
I have cut my chlorinator from high (5) to a 3 today and will watch my fc levels tonight. If I shock the pool, I plan to use 12.5% liquid ch. I am thinking I might just drain off about 6 inches a day for a few days.....but for how long. Do I want to use less chlorine or have less chlorine in the pool? I would say use less and have the least I can have and have healthy water.
My pool is about 11,000 gallons, vinyl and the water looks great.
CYA at 100 or higher can cause serious problems. Pool store results are not especially reliable, as you can see from your two very different CYA test results. But those results are suggestive that the actual CYA level might well be somewhere in the 100+ range.
With very high CYA levels you need to use fairly high FC levels to be effective against algae. With CYA at 100, our recommended FC level is between 7 and 12, and never below 7. Because your FC level is well below that, you probably have a low level algae problem. At higher CYA levels you can have algae, even though the water is clear. There is still enough chlorine to prevent the algae from ever getting out of control, but not enough chlorine to ever kill all of the algae. When this is happening your chlorine consumption goes way above normal levels.
CYA has two main effects. More CYA means chlorine is less effective. CYA binds to a fair portion of the chlorine, preventing it from helping sanitize the pool. This can be compensated for by raising the FC level as the CYA level goes up to maintain a consistent level of active chlorine. Second, CYA protects chlorine from sunlight, with higher CYA levels protecting more effectively.
The main consumer of chlorine in a clean pool is sunlight. Higher CYA levels protect the chlorine from sunlight, so you don't need to add as much chlorine, even though you have to maintain a higher FC level to keep the chlorine as effective as you need it to be.
With very high CYA levels you need to use fairly high FC levels to be effective against algae. With CYA at 100, our recommended FC level is between 7 and 12, and never below 7. Because your FC level is well below that, you probably have a low level algae problem. At higher CYA levels you can have algae, even though the water is clear. There is still enough chlorine to prevent the algae from ever getting out of control, but not enough chlorine to ever kill all of the algae. When this is happening your chlorine consumption goes way above normal levels.
CYA has two main effects. More CYA means chlorine is less effective. CYA binds to a fair portion of the chlorine, preventing it from helping sanitize the pool. This can be compensated for by raising the FC level as the CYA level goes up to maintain a consistent level of active chlorine. Second, CYA protects chlorine from sunlight, with higher CYA levels protecting more effectively.
The main consumer of chlorine in a clean pool is sunlight. Higher CYA levels protect the chlorine from sunlight, so you don't need to add as much chlorine, even though you have to maintain a higher FC level to keep the chlorine as effective as you need it to be.
Apparently, it's able to last long enough until the replacement you need to purchase from the manufacturer such as PoolNaturally® from Creative Water Solutions (CWS) where the dispenser is refilled monthly.anonapersona said:
Valerie,
If the goal is to have the lowest possible active chlorine level, then some means for preventing algae growth will be needed. I do not know if sphagnum moss inhibits algae at all. CWS claims that it does inhibit algae growth, but I couldn't find any scientific literature supporting that (though there are patent applications from CWS making that claim). So you could take a chance with a lower FC and higher CYA level such as 3 ppm FC with 100 ppm CYA, for example, and see what happens, but getting rid of an algae bloom at that high CYA is more difficult and usually requires a partial drain/refill to lower the CYA level since you would end up doing that anyway (since the point of sphagnum moss being ineffective for algae inhibition would then be proven).
All of the ways of inhibiting algae growth to allow you to have a lower active chlorine level are extra cost and some have side effects. The approach with the least amount of side effects is to use Polyquat 60 weekly and I can tell you from my own pool experience years ago that you could easily have 3 ppm FC with 100 ppm CYA and not have algae growth -- I didn't start getting algae until around 150 ppm CYA and was only dosing with the algaecide every other week (and I had around 3000 ppb phosphates at the time, so algae growth was not very limited by nutrients).
Another approach would be to use 50 ppm Borates in the pool or perhaps a somewhat higher level (but below 80 ppm). Unfortunately, we don't have good data for the level of algae inhibition, but I believe it to be somewhat mild and less than Polyquat 60. An educated guess would be a factor of 2 inhibition at best so maybe 3 ppm FC with 80 ppm CYA would work.
Other algaecide solutions have side effects such as using copper ions which can stain plaster pool surfaces and turn blond hair greenish. Phosphate removers can take the edge off of algae growth, but are expensive if you have high phosphate levels.
If you decide to experiment with lower active chlorine levels using your sphagnum moss, then see if you can have the pool store test your phosphate level (but do not buy any phosphate remover from them -- that would defeat the purpose of the test) and let us know how things go. It's the only way we'll really know for sure if sphagnum moss inhibits algae, especially if more than one person tries it. There won't be many takers from this forum, however, since everyone is pretty happy having chlorine alone inhibit algae as well as disinfect.
Just to note that at the lower active chlorine level you will have a lower rate of disinfection, but not by that much and for a residential pool it's probably fine. If you took the 99.9% kill time (3-log reduction) in minutes in the "Chlorine" column in the table in this post and multiplied by a factor of 3, then that time would be at half the active chlorine level that is at the minimum FC in the chlorine/CYA chart in the Pool School. In other words, most bacteria are still killed quickly. Algae are generally harder to kill than bacteria and the chlorine/CYA chart is designed to prevent green and black algae growth.
Thanks chemgeek....I am printing out your suggestions and will study them. We too had phosphates at 2800 earlier this year and I have to keep adding some of that product ( 2 caps) to the pool weekly. I just drained about a third of my pool and am refilling it. I plan to remove the trichlor pucks tomorrow ( to stop adding more cya) and try to use just 12.5 liquid to keep the pool at 3 to 4 ppm. I will post a gain when I know more......thank you for helping me out!
