Pool design, need help with how much space for shallow vs deep end

[Suburbanjuls]

Hi all,

Well we’ve finally gotten a pool plan and I think there’s way too much space dedicated to the shallow end. I’ve tried looking up prior threads but haven’t found any clear guidelines for how much portion of the pool for deep vs shallow, mostly just about the slope angle. We will be empty nesters this fall, so the pool is primarily for myself and husband to do laps and lounge. We do have all ages of family though and love to have people over. We want little kids to be able to do step offs from the spa and bigger kids and adults from the deck. Pool builder will make it what I want but I don’t know what portion to do, I just know it shouldn’t be almost half the pool as shallow end. Fingers crossed we should be digging next week!

 

[JamesW]

ANSI/APSP/ICC-5 2011 (R2022) American National Standard for Residential Inground Swimming Pools

This standard applies to permanently installed residential inground swimming pools intended for noncommercial use as a swimming pool by not more than three owner families and their guests and exceeding 24 in. (61 cm) in water depth. EXCEPTION: Separate ponds, fountains, decorative water...

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ANSI/APSP/ICC-5 2011 (R2022) American National Standard for Residential Inground Swimming Pools.

Published on Dec 2, 2022

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The Pool & Hot Tub Alliance advances the common interests of the industry by providing education, industry leadership, legislative and regulatory advocacy, standards development, research and market growth to increase our members' professionalism, knowledge and profitability.

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[Suburbanjuls]

Thanks JamesW,

So given that I have a 4' depth for shallow and 7' for deep, I only need 9' length to take up the 3' drop between the two. I guess what I am looking for is how many feet should I dedicate to the shallow end? I know that almost half the pool is too much, but there is a wide variation in what fits within the allowances. Those of you with similar size pool, what are you happy with in terms of portion of pool for deep vs shallow?

 

[Newdude]

Those of you with similar size pool

You neglected to add that info.

I don't think you can get an answer from anyone that works best for you, it's too subjective. My pool is 20x40 and we wanted a 'swimming pool', so I went with a 12ft shallow end. Although it's short, it's still 12x20 and the size of some people's pools.

We want little kids to be able to do step offs from the spa

Don't worry about the little kids, they grow too quick. Put them all in Puddle jumpers, the greatest thing ever, and turn them loose. They are much more comfy than swimmies and unlike swimmies, they don't accidentally pull off. Once the kids get tired yet refuse to get out and rest, they are worth their weight in gold.

We also kept a small, med, and large life vest so it didn't matter who showed up and wasn't the best swimmer. Many teens used them once they were a little tired too.

 

[setsailsoon]

On the depths I went with 7' deep end 4' shallow end. Most pools around here are 5.5 and 3.5. I wanted deeper deep end to be able to sit on the bottom so I could test out dive gear and 3.5' shallow end has me hitting bottom when I swim. Grandkids do just as well in 4'. As stated above there is no right answer. In Florida and possibly where you are 7' means you'll have 8.5' an need some dewatering capability but it's very easy to do and shouldn't cost much. Let me know if you need more info on this. Good luck!

Chris

 

[JamesW]

It's really a personal preference as long as you stay within the codes.

What works for one person won't necessarily work for a different person.

You seem to know what you want.

 

[Suburbanjuls]

possibly where you are 7' means you'll have 8.5' an need some dewatering capability

Not too sure what this means? Or is this possibly a typo? We are going to have 7' water depth, about 7.5' to coping.

 

[Suburbanjuls]

It's really a personal preference as long as you stay within the codes.

What works for one person won't necessarily work for a different person.

You seem to know what you want.

Thanks James,
I don't really know what I want, just what I don't want. From reading here is seems that the slope is kind of a no man's land, so best to not drag it out longer than what code allows for. I know the wider my deep end gets, the more gallons of water I will need to fill, filter, treat and heat.

Is this not something that is commonly discussed? It seems all manner of details are shared here, I'm not sure if I'm not looking in the right spot, or if this just isn't a data point that most folks think to share.

 

[Suburbanjuls]

You neglected to add that info.

I don't think you can get an answer from anyone that works best for you, it's too subjective. My pool is 20x40 and we wanted a 'swimming pool', so I went with a 12ft shallow end.

Thanks Newdude,

This is a helpful reference! Being an independent swimmer or safety gear is always required and small kids must have an adult watching. I like the tip to keep some extra sizes of life vests on the odd chance someone forgets theirs or has damage.

 

[Newdude]

From reading here is seems that the slope is kind of a no man's land,

On the contrary, we love ours. Everyone at vastly different heights gets their own sweet spot for being mostly submerged. The shallow end sucks if you're not standing to play volleyball or such. It's too deep to sit but too shallow to kneel comfortably. IMO above ground pools got it right with 52 inches because it feels swim-y while still being easily able to touch bottom.

Being an independent swimmer or safety gear is always required and small kids must have an adult watching

My kids were fish in a matter of days but they tired quickly and that's where the puddle jumpers were great to let them keep going without having to worry an extra amount over the usual amount. The life vests were appreciated by any bigger kids and even 1 grownup that couldn't swim well but wanted to have a fun day with us anyway.

 

[setsailsoon]

I will check my design documents. I believe the maximum slope is 45 degrees.

 

[Newdude]

I believe the maximum slope is 45 degrees.

3:1, so 18.4 degrees per a handy internet calculator

It would be uncomfortable to walk without the water helping lift you

 

[setsailsoon]

Not too sure what this means? Or is this possibly a typo? We are going to have 7' water depth, about 7.5' to coping.

No typo. Where I live the bottom of the pool dig was approximately 3' below the water table. It's common to be below it around here. Bottom of the pool is usually covered with #57 rock 6-10". Water starts to seep in as soon as you get below the table. My soil is about 85% sand with the rest organics so it's pretty permeable. So we lay a 2" pipe with slots cut in it about 8' long in the deepest part of the deep end. It is piped out of the pool forming straight up and to a pump that runs until after gunite is cured. Keeps the bottom good and dry to allow the gunite to cure. As the gunite cures we have a hole next to the drain fitting that is about the size of a large coffee can that enables the pool to equalize with the water table so it won't float. Don't thing that's very likely since the concrete weighs over 400,000 # but good to be safe. In some areas where the pool depth is 10' or deeper or the water table is higher they will drive 2-4 additional well points and pump them continuously. No idea what the water table or soils are like in your area. Hopefully it doesn't have this issue. BTW this operation isn't really difficult but the pump service is. If you need it make sure you have a backup pump on hand. I needed mine and it failed also so I ended up with my old submersible pump used for my previous pool as a backup, backup.

I hope this is helpful.

Chris

 

[setsailsoon]

3:1, so 18.4 degrees per a handy internet calculator

It would be uncomfortable to walk without the water helping lift you

View attachment 560376

That makes more sense I believe 45 deg may have been the angle of repose for walls of the dig at the bottom. I'll look it up.

 

[setsailsoon]

That makes more sense I believe 45 deg may have been the angle of repose for walls of the dig at the bottom. I'll look it up.

Yep, 45 deg was angle of repose max that's why I had to flash gunite on one side of the hole. The angle of the pool slope is governed by code. 3:1 as @Newdude found. There are other details about min distance to transition etc. Notes from my design docs are shown below.
I hope this is helpful.

Chris

Angle of repose:


Slope inside pool:

 

[Suburbanjuls]

So with my shallow end at 4' and deep end at 7', my slope will need to be 9' long to drop the 3' in depth difference. On a 36' long pool, I will then have 27' more length of pool to portion out to deep and shallow. If I kept as is proposed, I would have about 16' of shallow, 9' of slope, and then only 11' of deep. I think it's way too much shallow end.

If I reversed it from the proposal, I would have somewhat similar to NewDude with 11' shallow, 9' slope, and 16' deep. Does anyone have a tip for how to calculate gallons with these different depths?

Anyone else care to share how much space they dedicated to shallow and deep ends?

 

[setsailsoon]

So with my shallow end at 4' and deep end at 7', my slope will need to be 9' long to drop the 3' in depth difference. On a 36' long pool, I will then have 27' more length of pool to portion out to deep and shallow. If I kept as is proposed, I would have about 16' of shallow, 9' of slope, and then only 11' of deep. I think it's way too much shallow end.

If I reversed it from the proposal, I would have somewhat similar to NewDude with 11' shallow, 9' slope, and 16' deep. Does anyone have a tip for how to calculate gallons with these different depths?

Anyone else care to share how much space they dedicated to shallow and deep ends?

Sub,

OK, I just went out and stepped mine off. The pool is 4' at the very beginning of the shallow end. Then the shallow end very gradually slopes (1:7) for 12' to the drop (1:3) which is 9' long. Deep end is 7' deep and 12' long as well. Shallow end is "extended" with a sun deck that's only 12" deep also. Photo below.

I hope this helps.

Chris

 

[Newdude]

Does anyone have a tip for how to calculate gallons

Cut it into sections that you can easily find the area for rectangles and triangles. Then multiply by the width for cu ft. The multiply by 7.481 gallons per cu ft

 

[Newdude]

I get 25.6k gallons for the 11 ft deep end and 27.6k gallons for the 16 ft deep end. I assumed 18 ft wide because you haven't given us that measurement yet.

Anywho, I doubt you'd ever notice 2k gallons with your concerns about them. And pretty much nobody ever has said they wished they got a smaller pool. If you can afford a pool in the first place, treating/heating a larger pool isn't going to bankrupt you. I myself was hung up on the chemicals and the electricity before the 1st pool and neither mattered. I built the same 34k pool for the 2nd one. I choose to no longer heat the pool because we didn't use it when it was cold out. If we got alot of use out of it, whether heating it was $200 or $300 a month due to gallons wouldn't matter.

 

[Suburbanjuls]

Well I feel quite silly-I thought I had attached a copy of my pool plan but I guess I didn’t. Let’s try this again