New Tucson Owner-Builder Adventure - Advice Welcome!

Regarding the rock grotto, if the rocks are big, they may have to come up and over the back wall with a crane or backhoe to get them placed.
Yep, the grotto-man wants to put a crane in the wash and lift rocks either over the wall or over the pool and into place. There's barely enough room for a wheelbarrow, let alone a bobcat, to move rock around the pool.

Chipping out the deep-end standing perch by hand was actually my cathartic time. Remember, I am an owner-builder so part of my goal is to save a few bucks. My consultant recommended I dig my own gas-line trench because the plumber was going to charge $10 per linear foot to dig the trench, and we would need about 175' of trenches dug. He said he always tells his clients to rent an 18" trencher and do it themselves. I've used a trencher for irrigation lines before (maybe 6-10" deep) and remember it not being so bad. Well it is bad when you have to use the full capacity of your 18" trencher, and you not only are cutting through very hard clay, but also hitting buried cement-wash out and debris fields from the house construction. I spent one very long day with the trencher, and then my plumber said (a) I didn't dig them deep enough and (b) it would be easier to wait until after shotcrete to dig them out because there was so little room between my pool and house. I think it was my plumbers way of saying he really doesn't like digging gas trenches. Because of my nature, and because the whole pool build was already moving so slow, I spent 6 or 8 evenings and mornings using shovels and breaker bars to try to lower all my trenches to 20+ inches (After using the trencher, I was told by several people that my town has at least one inspector who will fail an 18" trench because it really only leaves 16" over the gas line, even though we'll later add finish landscaping that adds 2"+). Also, I found out there is no standard trench width. My gas trencher dug trenches 3" wide, but the trench clean-out shovels I could find were all 4" wide, which meant I would have to expand the width of the trenches if I was going to make them any deeper.

I did find out during this that my soon-to-be 3 year old would be very happy with a new set of gloves and his own shovel for his birthday. This is the best picture of some of the "finished" trenches:

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There were still a few trouble spots, like where I hit solid concrete, that I decided I would just have to pay the plumber to get through. But then rebar came out and started knocking a little dirt back in the trenches, and then the electrician came. The electrician actually solved the concrete problem by jackhammering through it, but created a new problem for me by co-opting my gas-line trench for the electrical lines (Electrician came and did his damage all while I was at work). I am hoping that I can somehow lift the electrical conduit up out of the trenches (its glued together, about 40' of conduit, including a couple of 90 degree turns) long enough to clean out the trenches back down to 20" and get the gas line installed and inspected. I'm also not sure how to deal with getting the gas line around all the plumbing in front of the equipment pad. There's really no room for a new trench in that area, and I am really hoping the PVC trench is close enough to 18"+ in that area so I don't have to somehow dig/work the gas line under the installed pool plumbing. I think I'll just leave that to Plumber-man to solve, since he put in the pool plumbing while knowing we still had to fit the gas line in that area later.
 
You were a bulldog you in your past life I bet! LOL You remind me of my hubby.........get it done and done right.


uhggggggg on the trench and it getting filled back up with dirt and electric line! "Hey here is a trench. I will use it." I can see why but that does not help.

Kim:cat:
 
Going back to finish this build thread ....

Plumbing was mostly non-eventful, and mostly happened while I was busy at work. If I had been on top of things, I probably should have had them do a full loop around the pool for the returns. Oh well. We also told him we weren't using salt water, but then after the plumbing was done we changed our minds, so we need him to come back out to make room for the salt generator.
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The plumber didn't want to do the gas-line digging, and although I took time off to get the trenching almost entirely done before the plumber finished the pool, he talked me into waiting on the gas line until after shotcrete, which we did. In the end I think he did have to do some gas line digging around the meter and around the equipment pad, but we saved about $1000 by doing the majority of the digging ourselves.

After pool plumbing, next came the steel. The same company did both our steel and shotcrete, and I can't recommend them enough.
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This one guy tied all the steel himself over a two day period. They get paid per-job, and when he works alone he gets 100% of the fee for the job. On a bigger crew, he feels like he does a disproportionate amount of the work but only gets to keep 1/3 or 1/4 of the job fee, so he just prefers to do the whole thing himself.

Two days after steel was done, our pool consultant had electrical come. We didn't know they were coming, and didn't have the easytouch control panel on site for them to install. They did the rest of the electrical install, including solving my concrete problem in one of my gas line trenches, but also laid their conduit in my trenches. When it came time to deepen the trenches for the gas line inspection, it was easy to simply lift the conduit out of the trenches.
 
Shotcrete had a bigger backlog than our consultant expected, but it allowed us to fix a major problem with our grotto. Even back in the initial design phase I had been asking our consultant/designer "which subs do we need to talk to now to make sure we are taking into account their requirements?" and I specifically asked about the grotto and its necessary foundation. Our consultant assured us he had done hundreds of pools, the subs have all done hundreds or thousands of pools, and to just trust them that everything was fine.

It wasn't fine. The design provided for a pad for the grotto to sit on, and a smaller one for the adjacent waterfall. The grotto guy, when he first came out after excavation said the pads were too small. He talked with the consultant (who did the layout) and the consultant enlarged the pad forms. I enlarged them a little more and joined them together. After steel was put in, the grotto guy kept telling me it wasn't right and he was going to talk to my consultant to get it fixed before shotcrete. My consultant wasn't helping the grotto guy to solve the problem, and so finally I scheduled a meeting on the eve of shotcrete with the grotto guy and shotcrete owner. And together we came up with a tentative plan, but it required putting off shotcrete for another 10 days.
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My grotto problem was that I wanted the grotto to go from one side to another side of my geometric pool, covering the corner and extending out into the pool, rather than what most grottos do, which is apparently sit on just one side of a pool and extend backward away from the water. The photo above shows, on the morning of shotcrete while the shotcreters are getting set-up and started, the owner and his son adding steel to create a large support on the pad that would form the back of the grotto cave, and they also took the bench under the grotto and expanded it and turned each side into an in-pool support for the large rock. You can see the back wall and the front-side supports in the shotcrete picture below.
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Other than excavation, shotcrete was probably the most exciting part to watch.
The kids were very excited to help water the shell.
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A few days after shotcrete, the grotto guys got to work. They used a backhoe to lift the large flagstone cap over the wall and into place, but then had a pile of boulders they positioned by hand.
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My goal was to avoid having an odd thumb of rock/grotto stick up from the edge of the pool, so I asked them to add a jumping rock off to one side, and then they left all their extra rocks that I am still moving around and positioning to make it look a little more like what I had in mind.

These pictures are from almost 3 months ago. In the last month, after we filled the pool and turned on the grotto and waterfall, we found a number of leaks out the backside of both the grotto and little waterfall. They have been out once already to try to re-seal things, and are coming out again tomorrow. Hoping they can find a fix, because otherwise we end up with gallons and gallons of water pooling behind the grotto and waterfall whenever they are turned on.
 
After the grotto, we entered the excruciatingly slow phase of tile/stacked stone/coping/decking. Before the build even started, we picked out tile at NPT, and thought that we had just a generic, simple tile. Since each PB has their own individual markups, NPT wouldn't tell us the price and would only give that info to our consultant. Turned out our choice was about 5x more expensive than the generic, simple tile. Eventually we picked another, but then so much time had passed between picking it and when we were ready for tile, that NPT had discontinued that tile. Finally we ended up with the below tile, which we are happy with.

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The tile guy instantly could tell the dimensions and angles on the spa spillover were wrong, but he thought he could fix as part of tiling. Eventually, on his own without us even getting involved, he worked with the shotcrete guys and they came out and added cement to change some angles and removed a little shotcrete in other spots. This was another instance where instead of our consultants motto of "just make it work", the sub made sure it was done right.

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We liked out tile guy enough that we waited on his schedule to have him do the stacked-stone around the spa. I can't remember the tile name, but the stacked stone is "Bark" from NPT.
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At some point I mentioned to my kids that I wanted to pull up the paver patio the builder installed to make room for the travertine patio/decking. My 6yr old found the loosest paver and worked it free. Then one night he and his older sisters went to work and pulled up all the pavers.

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The only thing I had to do was move the pavers out of the way.
 
Thanks Helen. We were told a couple of times along the way that we were making design mistakes, and our consultant tried hard to convince us to change the design. He ​really did not like a rock grotto/waterfall with an otherwise geometric pool, and I was worried he might be right since we couldn't find examples online of what we were trying to do. But our backyard called for a geometric pool, and we wanted to add some fun features for the kids. The consultant's attempts at alternatives did not appeal to me, so we pushed forward. I kept envisioning some Italian fountain where you would have a "natural" water feature with a geometric around and up to the water feature. We are very happy with how it turned out, and our consultant apologized for being pessimistic at first since it turned out well.
 
What as story so far! AWESOME about the tile guy making sure it was RIGHT instead of just making it work. :( for your consultant.

Your KIDS did that? Good parenting! I guess they got to pick what was for supper that night!

:kim:
 

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At this point, we were at about the middle of June and would be leaving town for 10 days for the 4th of July. We were trying to get as much done beforehand as we could, but ended up at the mercy of materials and sub availability.

Our tile guy could fit in the coping job, but it would be several more weeks before he could do the decking. We should have waited. Instead the company we found for our artificial grass gave us a good quote, and they are a large company, so we gave them the job. They couldn't start until after the we left town, but we were comfortable having them do the grass and decking while we were out of town. We just had to get the coping done first. When our consultant finally went to order the coping for delivery, it turned out they didn't have 2" scabos travertine coping in stock. This was a Saturday, and I called around and finally found someone else who said they had it in Phoenix, but to call back on Monday to place the order. Of course when I did and they checked with their Phoenix vendor, they only had 16x24 size pieces which just increased the cost. And then somehow it kept missing the delivery truck, and then the special-run delivery truck they sent was to lightweight to carry all the stone, so it took an extra week to get delivered to Tucson. We barely made the tile-guy's narrow window of availability before the grass/decking crew was supposed to come.
 
Thanks.
Doesn't sound to me like the consultant is worth his fees. :p
Luckily his fee was relatively low.

-- edit --

To be fair, he was very nice, some of the challenges of working with him we knew about up front, he had some unexpected family emergencies come up during our build, and our build did not fit inside his standard, bread-and-butter consultant business. I think most of his builds, where owners aren't as involved as we were, and that don't have any unique or quasi-unique features, things go fine.
 
We LOVE our grotto. One thing I would recommend is to put a spa light in there. Several folks told us not to have an LED light facing the house... But we did it anyhow. What I really like is that at night the WHOLE pool and spa is lit up, instead of a triangle of light from the main light only. So total there are 3 lights - 1 in pool, 1 in the spa and i in the grotto step.

Occasionally a big ol' frog will jump in the pool... and I kinda like to know that before I go in. (I even check the skimmers..)

LOVE your tile choice too. It's going to be so pretty.
 
I agree that eliminating dark areas can trump the standard lighting don'ts if needed.
 
I have a total of 4 but wish I had 5. We have two in the pool, one in the spa, and a Glo-brite on the shelf. I wish I would have added another Glo-brite to the pool as there is one area in the middle that feels pretty dark at night. It looks pretty bright in this pic but at night you feel the "dark hole".


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Our consultant assured us that one light in the pool was enough. Depending on which color is on, it meets the minimum needs, but we are definitely wishing we had added at least one more light. Its enough to get by for now, but my wife is already asking "if/when we redo the plaster in 10-15 years, is it easy to add another light?" I hadn't thought of adding one in the grotto, but that is also a good idea.
 

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