Need to replace filter and have no clue what to buy after researching

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poolhelpplease. said:
The green pool is because it’s closed and because of the winter. I can turn it clear in a few hours by doing a shock treatment.

Why do you think I should get another one with 4 cartridges and 320+ sqft? I read on swim university that for a pool like mine I should only need between 100-200
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Because my job is to make you go away, lol. In my world. That's if I'm doing it correct. I would step in your back yard find what you want vs what your pool needs. And then combined the two.

If you do a 420 + cart filter what I know your used to, I wouldn't get any more phones calls from you. You and your pool would be set and happy. But I told you I'm a sand filter guy, See above post.
Now I have to teach you about a whole new monster, sand changes, etc. Plus I know you can plug and play a cart filter right now, no extra "selling", plumbing, back wash valves, side mount or top mount, large lids vs small lids etc. For exp, do you have a backwash line for a sand filter? Prolly not, so you need to roll out a blue rubber hose out into the yard when you back wash?

You see if you can find a Pentair 420 cart or larger you will be good to go. ( I'm almost 100% the inlet and outlet ports will line up) If the ports do not line up some minor replumbing just at the filter will be required. Which you were going to be doing anyways going with any other filter, no big deal. If you stick with a Pentair cartridge filter you may not have to replumb anything. No back wash lines or hoses, no multi port or push pull back wash valves to hunt down, same equipment pad foot print, etc. Plug and play
 
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poolhelpplease. said:
I called a company that is more focused on installing vs selling and they told me that my 2HP pump would would either blow up the cartridge of the filter that I bought or it would swell. They said I should go with a 300lbs 24in sand filter. Do you think that would be good enough?
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Your 2hp pump is very much too large for a 300lb. (usually 60gpm rated) sand filter. If it is a single speed pump its too big for virtually any residential application. At 40feet of head (average starting head on a pool) it is going to try to pump 140-150 gpm. That's from Heyward's pump curve for that pump. Trying to shove that much water through a 60gpm (3sq. ft.) sand filter will cause the debris to be embedded too far into the sand, eventual channeling, and could cause the tank to fail. If you are looking at a Hayward sand filter and it were to fail, Hayward would not provided a warranty using a pump that large. Cartridge filters, even large ones, would have issues as well.
For pool purposes we want to limit water speed in the plumbing to about 7 feet per second (just an average). New standards are even lower, but let's go with that. For 2" pipe that is no more than 88 gpm. If you have 1.5" it should be no more than 48gpm. You see the problem. A quick solution would be to have a 1 or even .75 hp impeller installed to your pump. Would greatly improve your system. Despite the hp of the motor your pump would only move the water of a 1 or .75hp pump. If anyone argues with that, ask if they ever attended any StaRite hydraulics schools. If you go with a new cartridge filter or a sand filter everything would work better. Better option, install a variable-speed motor to your pump and slow it way down. Would need to be a 2.7hp model motor; V-Green ECM27SQU is good. They mate well with a TriStar. Best option is a new VSP.
 
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"A quick solution would be to have a 1 or even .75 hp impeller installed to your pump. Would greatly improve your system. Despite the hp of the motor your pump would only move the water of a 1 or .75hp pump. If anyone argues with that, ask if they ever attended any StaRite hydraulics schools"

I'm not going to argue with that other than to say I can't argue against that a smaller impeller would be ideal. StaRite was bought out during the Clinton administration, and just about everything they made was obsolete 20 years ago.

Pentair the company that bought them out, say the Tr60 is 63gpm. It is a small filter I know that. It's also a small pool. 10,000.

" Trying to shove that much water through a 60gpm (3sq. ft.) sand filter will cause the debris to be embedded too far into the sand, eventual channeling"

Got it that's true, all tiny sand filter brands do that no matter how powerful the pump is. After back washing a small cloud can shoot back into the pool briefly. I'm not saying they all do, I'm saying yes they can and will. Pump size does not change this right?

Tr140s, (900lbs) do that too, not all of them do always, but will, and to be frank do. Just shut down a pool for a week and fire it up. It WILL blow back briefly. And I have never opened a sand filter that did not channel to some degree along the sides of the filter. That's where all the tough grime and debris collects. The size of the pump hp does not change that. 1.5hp, 2hp, 1.5inch pipe, 2inch pipe, 3inch, 6inch, 950llbs of sand, 900lbs, 600lbs, 300lbs.

I'm not arguing against anything you said, It's such a cop-out for me to say I see the above installments all over this area and everything works fine with little issue. That what you speak of is jjust normal. I've taken classes from the vendors at the San Antonio pool and spa show like you have. So maybe I can ask a few questions for the OP and myself as well without high jacking anything?


" 2" pipe that is no more than 88gpm.
"1.5" it should be no more than 48gpm.

OP has 2inch pipes. If we install a Tr60 sand filter, (not my first choice kinda small) at 63gpm. How fast is the water speed per second in the plumbing? Under 7 ft per second, or over?
 
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ferretbone said:
"A quick solution would be to have a 1 or even .75 hp impeller installed to your pump. Would greatly improve your system. Despite the hp of the motor your pump would only move the water of a 1 or .75hp pump. If anyone argues with that, ask if they ever attended any StaRite hydraulics schools"

I'm not going to argue with that other than to say I can't argue against that a smaller impeller would be ideal. StaRite was bought out during the Clinton administration, and just about everything they made was obsolete 20 years ago.

Pentair the company that bought them out, say the Tr60 is 63gpm. It is a small filter I know that. It's also a small pool. 10,000.

" Trying to shove that much water through a 60gpm (3sq. ft.) sand filter will cause the debris to be embedded too far into the sand, eventual channeling"

Got it that's true, all tiny sand filter brands do that no matter how powerful the pump is. After back washing a small cloud can shoot back into the pool briefly. I'm not saying they all do, I'm saying yes they can and will. Pump size does not change this right?

Tr140s, (900lbs) do that too, not all of them do always, but will, and to be frank do. Just shut down a pool for a week and fire it up. It WILL blow back briefly. And I have never opened a sand filter that did not channel to some degree along the sides of the filter. That's where all the tough grime and debris collects. The size of the pump hp does not change that. 1.5hp, 2hp, 1.5inch pipe, 2inch pipe, 3inch, 6inch, 950llbs of sand, 900lbs, 600lbs, 300lbs.

I'm not arguing against anything you said, It's such a cop-out for me to say I see the above installments all over this area and everything works fine with
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ferretbone said:
That what you speak of is jjust normal. I've taken classes from the vendors at the San Antonio pool and spa show like you have. So maybe I can ask a few questions for the OP and myself as well without high jacking anything?


" 2" pipe that is no more than 88gpm.
"1.5" it should be no more than 48gpm.

OP has 2inch pipes. If we install a Tr60 sand filter, (not my first choice kinda small) at 63gpm. How fast is the water speed per second in the plumbing? Under 7 ft per second, or over?
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Ferretbone, you are one of the very few people I know of that understands what happens when a pump is downsized.

Filter pumps made before the Clinton Administration are still being made with virtually no change regardless of who now makes them. Whisperflo pumps in the early 90s and made by Purex, one of the most popular pumps ever, basis of the Intellflo and still made in lower hp DOE compliant form. StaRite Max-E-2, Max-E-Pro, mid/late 90s made by StaRite, basis of the IntelliPro and still made in lower hp DOE compliant models. Read the pump curves for the earlier and later models and they are virtually identical. Yeah, I still have 30 year old manuals in my computer.

I haven't seen a major change in sand filter design that has made any significant difference in performance and have installed every size, model and brand available in my area. Not a fan of 3sq.ft. models (TA60, TA60D, TR60, S-244T, S-244T2, SD60) and much prefer the larger ones if they will fit. The way builders in my area put in small pads that doesn't always work.

The laws governing hydraulics have been around far longer and haven't changed either, regardless of when they were taught. The effects of too large a pump on a system haven't changed. All manufactures' schools I attended taught the same thing.

Are there pools out there that have worked with bad hydraulics? Way too many. Was I a bit off about the flow rate and fps for those size pipes? A little. Those were what was taught as maximum gpm, for pool purposes, for those sizes.

Your question about 63gpm means you know that is 7 fps in 2" plumbing. 63? C'mon? At first I thought that was a legit question.

Have you opened a 60gpm sand filter pushed by a 2hp Whisperflo and seen the calcium channeling that looks like termite tubes? Not all channeling is down the perimeter and is far less likely with a properly sized pump and proper backwashing. Chemistry helps, too.
 
ferretbone said:
Pentair TR60 Tritton ll 24 inch Side Mount In Ground Sand Filter ** NEW in Box * 788379666125 | eBay

That first link is a TR60 its a side mounted backwash valve. And prolly the one they are going to install.
Its easy to do a deep clean, easy to change the sand, just know it is a smaller filter than what you have. Skill level 3 out of 10

Pentair SD60 Sand Dollar Pool Filter EC-145322 | Pool Supply 4 Less
This is the same filter size only the back wash valve is on top. Skill level 5 to clean, or change the sand. Its a little harder to clean and do sand changes. Dont compare prices from my links. I'm lazy and just looked up the first two I saw. Both should be good enough.

The next size up is a TR100, thats more than enough filter and you wont have to open it to cleaning for years. And when you do it will be far easier to clean or change out the sand.
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Interestingly, even though the SD60 is rated at 60gpm it only requires 250lb. of sand and the tank is about 2" smaller in diameter than other brands/models of 60gpm sand filters. Don't know how they get that flow rate. The top-mount valve saves space, too. That has come in handy a couple of times
 
1poolman1 said:
Your 2hp pump is very much too large for a 300lb. (usually 60gpm rated) sand filter. If it is a single speed pump its too big for virtually any residential application. At 40feet of head (average starting head on a pool) it is going to try to pump 140-150 gpm. That's from Heyward's pump curve for that pump. Trying to shove that much water through a 60gpm (3sq. ft.) sand filter will cause the debris to be embedded too far into the sand, eventual channeling, and could cause the tank to fail. If you are looking at a Hayward sand filter and it were to fail, Hayward would not provided a warranty using a pump that large. Cartridge filters, even large ones, would have issues as well.
For pool purposes we want to limit water speed in the plumbing to about 7 feet per second (just an average). New standards are even lower, but let's go with that. For 2" pipe that is no more than 88 gpm. If you have 1.5" it should be no more than 48gpm. You see the problem. A quick solution would be to have a 1 or even .75 hp impeller installed to your pump. Would greatly improve your system. Despite the hp of the motor your pump would only move the water of a 1 or .75hp pump. If anyone argues with that, ask if they ever attended any StaRite hydraulics schools. If you go with a new cartridge filter or a sand filter everything would work better. Better option, install a variable-speed motor to your pump and slow it way down. Would need to be a 2.7hp model motor; V-Green ECM27SQU is good. They mate well with a TriStar. Best option is a new VSP.
Click to expand...
They want to install the S244T with 2” pipe. The cartridge filter that I bought 225sqft is 85GPM. Is it better?
I was just told today that it will cost $240 to repair my pump because the basket was broken and rocks got in.

Should I throw the pump away and buy a smaller one or repair it and do what you said? Also I have a waste line with an underground pipe that goes straight to the street. Could I use that for backwash?
 
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poolhelpplease. said:
Hi, I don't know much about pool equipment and I feel like every salesman I talk to is just trying to get my money.

I currently have a 7 year old cartridge filter with 4 cartridges that needs a lot of repairs so I just want to replace it. The label is worn out and doesn't say the exact model that I have so its of no help to me. All that I know is that it is 320, 420, or 520 sq ft. and the res GPM is 120 or 150.
View attachment 402788

Every salesman I've talked to has pushed me towards sand filters for some reason but I want cartridge as it filters better.

Today I purchased a Hayward C225S single cartridge filter that I will pick up tomorrow but I don't know if I made the right choice. It was $700CAD and I can't find any information about it online. I read that for my 1.5HP pump I should use a 300-400 sq ft filter and the one I bought is only 200sqft. It is also much smaller than the one I have currently.

Was the one I had overkill or is the one I bought not good enough? They also had one with 4 cartridges but it was double the price.
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Just a thought and my 2 cents. Get a sand filter and use glass media. It filters as good as DE according to what I read. 2-3 microns.
 
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poolhelpplease. said:
I’ve looked into glass beads but they’re $60/bag *6 instead of $7/bag
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There actually are reasons that glass filter media is considered better from a strange chemical reason. The media is made from recycled glass. There is some property of colored glass (think beer bottles) that removes iron, at least in a laboratory. I've tried it on my on dime, didn't charge the customer extra. It was a pool that I serviced regularly and wanted to know how well it worked. Never saw any reason to continue to use it in future installs. Water never looked any better or had less issues than a pool 2 doors down on the same street that had a 5-year-old sand filter installed when I took it on.
There have been other "sand alternatives" come and go, but just plain "filter" sand has never let me down.
 
+1. The best anyone has been able to report in the real world, was that XYZ media / sand alternative 'works as good as sand'. Why spend the extra for a comparable product ?
 
@1poolman1 hey there's too much information. Could you please tell me what filter you would sell me if I was your customer with a 2HP pump, 10600 gallons and 2in piping and I will go ahead and buy it.

These are the options
  • S244T with reducer or S244T2 at 60GPM +- $600
  • 25in 300lbs Hayward sand filter $500
  • Hayward C225SC Cartridge filter at 84GPM 225sqft $700
  • Something else that you recommend
 
poolhelpplease. said:
Also I have a waste line with an underground pipe that goes straight to the street. Could I use that for backwash?
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Your local municipality might have something to say about where you can backwash. Sometimes they don't want it in the sewer system. Sometimes not in the street, as it might lead to a natural body of water. Sometimes not even in your yard if it can drain to some sort of habitat or stream. Check with them, and/or your sewer company or water company. There can be hefty fines if you violate local ordinances.

While on the subject, backwashing wastes water. There's no way around that. If such things matter to you, that's a consideration. Maybe up your way that's not an issue. Down here we are looking to save every drop.

Those factors might help you make up your mind about sand vs cartridge...
 
poolhelpplease. said:
They want to install the S244T with 2” pipe. The cartridge filter that I bought 225sqft is 85GPM. Is it better?
I was just told today that it will cost $240 to repair my pump because the basket was broken and rocks got in.

Should I throw the pump away and buy a smaller one or repair it and do what you said? Also I have a waste line with an underground pipe that goes straight to the street. Could I use that for backwash?
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One advantage to sand is that the media seldom needs to be handled/replaced. Cartridges do. My experience with the S-244T, and most sand filters is that in about 5 years you may have to add a bit more sand, 50 lb. for the S-244. I always plumb with unions for that reason.

Not sure what the damage to your pump entails nor how old it is. If you have it repaired, be sure to downsize (smaller impeller). Two horsepower is too much pump fore that filter and it will void any warranty claims from Hayward if something happens. Just had a friend in the business experience that on an S-310 (larger that S-244) that had a seam split. It was on a commercial pool with a 2hp pump. You can read the recommended flow rates for the filter, find the pump capacity and make them match up to meet the manufacturer's specs or risk issues. Hayward has always been a good company in my area and they (or at least the local rep) did relent and provide a new tank, but only after a lot of negotiation. Fortunately it was during Winter as the pool was down for about two months

As far as pump repair, there is nothing "as good as new" except new. Depending on how old the pump is, you might repair it and then the motor go out. The best option is, as is recommended regularly on this forum, a new VSP set to run long and slow.

Can you use the pipe that runs to the street for backwash? I don't know. Is it blocked? Can it handle the flow of a backwash? Are there any breaks underground that will send water where you don't want it to go, like under your homes foundation? Is it legal in your area to flood the gutter/street with pool water?
 
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1poolman1 said:
One advantage to sand is that the media seldom needs to be handled/replaced. Cartridges do. My experience with the S-244T, and most sand filters is that in about 5 years you may have to add a bit more sand, 50 lb. for the S-244. I always plumb with unions for that reason.

Not sure what the damage to your pump entails nor how old it is. If you have it repaired, be sure to downsize (smaller impeller). Two horsepower is too much pump fore that filter and it will void any warranty claims from Hayward if something happens. Just had a friend in the business experience that on an S-310 (larger that S-244) that had a seam split. It was on a commercial pool with a 2hp pump. You can read the recommended flow rates for the filter, find the pump capacity and make them match up to meet the manufacturer's specs or risk issues. Hayward has always been a good company in my area and they (or at least the local rep) did relent and provide a new tank, but only after a lot of negotiation. Fortunately it was during Winter as the pool was down for about two months

As far as pump repair, there is nothing "as good as new" except new. Depending on how old the pump is, you might repair it and then the motor go out. The best option is, as is recommended regularly on this forum, a new VSP set to run long and slow.

Can you use the pipe that runs to the street for backwash? I don't know. Is it blocked? Can it handle the flow of a backwash? Are there any breaks underground that will send water where you don't want it to go, like under your homes foundation? Is it legal in your area to flood the gutter/street with pool water?
Click to expand...
Thanks a lot for your great help.

So if I understand correctly, I should make my pump run slower or buy a larger filter.

I already had a 1.5HP pump repaired by that person and it stopped working a few years later so they gave me this 2hp Tristar for free so if this one stops working after the repair, he will probably fix it again or replace it for free. I will ask him about the impeller thing. Do you think 1.5 would be good enough for the filters I listed or should I go to 1HP?

That's the pipe I used when I vacuum and it doesn't come anywhere near the house. It goes straight to the street and the water flows into the sewers. Luckily there's no laws for water and they don't meter your consumption here. The only law is that I can't fill up the pool between 5 to 7PM
 
poolhelpplease. said:
@1poolman1 hey there's too much information. Could you please tell me what filter you would sell me if I was your customer with a 2HP pump, 10600 gallons and 2in piping and I will go ahead and buy it.

These are the options
  • S244T with reducer or S244T2 at 60GPM +- $600
  • 25in 300lbs Hayward sand filter $500
  • Hayward C225SC Cartridge filter at 84GPM 225sqft $700
  • Something else that you recommend
Click to expand...
I would not install any sand filter, or any other filter, on a pool with a 2hp pump unless it was downsized. I turned down an installation on a 1.5hp pump last November because that, is too large and he wouldn't downsize. And money isn't the issue as I will do that downsizing for what the parts cost me just to be sure there are no future problems that I caused. The filter pump is only one issue. Two-inch plumbing also limits the size of pump that should be installed. I've already discussed the hydraulics earlier.

I may get grief from this, but from personal experience on many installations (at least 100 over the years of just this filter), an S-244T with regular filter sand coupled with a .5hp full-rated single-speed filter pump would serve you quite well. And yes, a .5hp good pump will adequately backwash a 24" sand filter. I have never had a customer complain after I have made that type of installation. Using a VSP would be better. I know that Hayward makes that 25" tank, which should allow a slightly higher flow rate, but I have never been able to get one in my area. There is a large pool company about 150 miles South of my location that snaps them up every time they become available.

The reality of the situation is that the flow rates for filters are the maximum design rate. You are always better if you can slow the water down to less than maximum for best performance/longevity/service.
 
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poolhelpplease. said:
Thanks a lot for your great help.

So if I understand correctly, I should make my pump run slower or buy a larger filter.

I already had a 1.5HP pump repaired by that person and it stopped working a few years later so they gave me this 2hp Tristar for free so if this one stops working after the repair, he will probably fix it again or replace it for free. I will ask him about the impeller thing. Do you think 1.5 would be good enough for the filters I listed or should I go to 1HP?

That's the pipe I used when I vacuum and it doesn't come anywhere near the house. It goes straight to the street and the water flows into the sewers. Luckily there's no laws for water and they don't meter your consumption here. The only law is that I can't fill up the pool between 5 to 7PM
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You can't make a single-speed pump run slower.
 
poolhelpplease. said:
I’ve looked into glass beads but they’re $60/bag *6 instead of $7/bag
Click to expand...
I wouldn’t mess with the glass. I have a VSP and an old Hayward s244s sand filter and am perfectly content with that combo. The main advantage with the VSP is that I can run it at low speeds 24/7 using less than 300 watts. The sand filter seems to work much better this way and when I need to I simply add a bit of DE to the sand filter. The DE can be backwashed out once the pressure of the flow rate drops too low.
www.troublefreepool.com

Add DE to a Sand Filter

A clean pool filter will increase the efficiency of your pool! ... your filter are to backwash it, clean the manifolds and grids, and add new DE.
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com
 
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1poolman1 said:
You can't make a single-speed pump run slower.
Click to expand...
But if I put a 1HP impeller on it, it won’t damage the filter?

Also the C225SC works up to 84GPM while the S244T is up to 63GPM so if I understand correctly, the cartridge would filter better and last longer? I don’t understand the difference between sqft and GPM.

So if I have the chance between the 25” sandmaster with a 2” to 1.5” reducer for $180 cheaper vs the S244T2, I should go with the 25?

Sorry for all the questions. It’s just that you seem the most knowledgeable because everyone else I’ve talked to tells me that these filters work with the 2HP pump
 
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