Might need to SLAM. Trying to figure it out.

[wdsheffer]

Okay, I've had this pool for a couple weeks now. The previous owner used Leslie's for advice, chlorinated with Trichlor in a feeder on the equipment pad and a floater in the spa. His advice was, "If you come home and anything looks off, shock it." I found TFP before going blindly into Leslie's (and I still haven't been in there.) Received my TF-100 on Monday 7/31. Until then, I just dumped in a 121 oz jug of 7.5% grocery store bleach every other day.

That first day I only tested CYA (30-40) and FC (near zero). I recall pH being high, too, but I had just gotten the PoolMath app and didn't log those numbers. I decided it would hurt nothing to throw in some more of the Trichlor pucks the PO had left behind, since it should improve all three of those values, and last, oh I don't know, a week?

Kept testing daily with the OTO test, then a few days ago the FC showed up 0. Oh snap, the Trichlor got used up. Added another jug of 7.5% bleach.

8/6 I did a new battery of tests.
FC: 4.5
CC: 0.5
pH: 7.6
TA: 120
CH: 175
CYA: 50
PO left some Leslie's Hardness Plus behind, so I broadcast 4 scoops around the surface to work on the CH. I left the TA alone for now.

8/7
FC: 0 (Snap!)
Added another jug of bleach.
30 minutes later...
FC: 6.5
pH: 8.0
CH: 225
Broadcast 3 more scoops CaCl2

8/8
FC: 0 (Snap!)
pH: 8.0
Okay, WTH, better to put another half jug of bleach and a couple more Trichlor pucks in while I figure this out.

Clearly, I'm losing FC too fast, and that calls for an overnight chlorine test, right? (I'll have to wait until pucks are used up.)
I've seen talk of OCLT showing FC loss, therefore it must be algae, and a SLAM is called for.
My question here is could the FC demand also be from other organics, such as the metric butt ton of pine needles and crape myrtle detritus I'm pulling out of my skimmer baskets every day? If I try to SLAM, am I never going to reach an OCLT loss of 0, because I still have so much tree litter?

Other items:
I need to get more economical about buying liquid chlorine, and Patriot Cleaning Supplies sells 12.5% in bulk not too far away, but how unwieldy are large containers for this? It's easy to dose out a jug or half a jug of store-bought bleach, but how do people do it with a 5-gal jug? Maybe pour into a plastic 1-gal lemonade pitcher? Mark it up like a graduated cylinder?

The water has been clear this whole time, but somewhere early in this process I found myself brushing green stuff out of the tile grout all the way around the pool, though it hasn't come back yet. That was maybe around the time @Newdude cautioned me that where FC is concerned "minimum" should be translated as "Swampville."

Our house is on a water softener, so I'm going to guess the automatic filler is using softened water, thus the low CH. Seems pretty silly that you'd pay to soften water, then pay to harden it back up, but I guess it is what it is.

I haven't backwashed the DE filter since I've had it. The PO said the pressure reads 18 when it's clean, and he backwashes when it gets up to around 22 or 23. It's been sitting at 20 for a while now and I'm wondering if I should just go ahead and backwash it based on it having been at least a few weeks. (But then the bag of DE is behind a bunch of Crud in the garage we haven't unpacked yet, so I'm not really itching to do it.)

Thanks in advance for your advice.

 

[SJPoe]

Lots to unpack

Our house is on a water softener, so I'm going to guess the automatic filler is using softened water, thus the low CH. Seems pretty silly that you'd pay to soften water, then pay to harden it back up, but I guess it is what it is

This should be easy to fix - a plumber should be able to reroute the supply line to the 'hard' side of the softener. Just depends how much it bothers you really. You can always run tests on the fill water to see for sure. My outside faucets are connected to input side of the softener...because yeah, the pressure washer doesn't need softened water

could the FC demand also be from other organics

Absolutely - Algae would tend to suck the most because it grows - your leaf litter isn't trying to reproduce (hopefully), but yes, anything organic being sanitized is going to eat up the FC. Skim/Vaccuum/Brush !!
The fact that your FC is going to 0, and you are seeing (saw) evidence of Algae certainly would make me want to at a minimum keep my FC at a level such that I'm ahead of the minimum.

I would increase your FC up closer to SLAM level, and run an OCLT to see what the loss is. Obviously try to clean out as much visible debris as possible first. Can you cover the pool at all ? My solar cover catches a LOT of the tree debris (although the ants still seem to find a way to commit suicide on a daily basis).

 

[wdsheffer]

No, I don’t have a cover, or a vacuum. I’ve been mucking out the skimmers every day, and using the pole net to skim what’s left. The Polaris seems to do a good job keeping the bottom clean, but of course it holds those organics under water, so I should probably empty the bag. I don’t have a vacuum.

The previous owner did say to remove the Polaris when shocking. If I’m at shock level for days, am I going to risk damage to the Polaris by letting it sit in the pool, or forego cleaning the bottom? Or is it really not a concern for the Polaris?

Re the fill line, if I can figure out where it’s plumbed in, it might be worth rerouting, but odds are they would have to cut through our patio, at which point I’d rather stick with the CaCl2.

 

[Bperry]

No, I don’t have a cover, or a vacuum. I’ve been mucking out the skimmers every day, and using the pole net to skim what’s left. The Polaris seems to do a good job keeping the bottom clean, but of course it holds those organics under water, so I should probably empty the bag. I don’t have a vacuum.

The previous owner did say to remove the Polaris when shocking. If I’m at shock level for days, am I going to risk damage to the Polaris by letting it sit in the pool, or forego cleaning the bottom? Or is it really not a concern for the Polaris?

Re the fill line, if I can figure out where it’s plumbed in, it might be worth rerouting, but odds are they would have to cut through our patio, at which point I’d rather stick with the CaCl2.

Be careful with grocery store bleach as lots of it has fabric softeners and perfumes you don’t want in the pool. Only use plain bleach, no cloromax technology etc.

If you’ve been at zero chlorine for any length of time, you likely have an algae outbreak coming, so yea a SLAM would be appropriate assuming an overnight chlorine loss test confirms you’re losing chlorine overnight.

The amount of safe chlorine is dependent on the CYA level so the chlorine level that’s safe for equipment like the Polaris and people is 20ppm if the CYA is 50ppm. So as long as you’re testing it to keep it under 20ppm, it’ll be fine.

 

[wdsheffer]

The amount of safe chlorine is dependent on the CYA level so the chlorine level that’s safe for equipment like the Polaris and people is 20ppm if the CYA is 50ppm. So as long as you’re testing it to keep it under 20ppm, it’ll be fine.

Nice, good to know. So you'd let people swim with FC up to 20, or you just wouldn't be worried they'd die if they fell in, lol?
I'm only using regular bleach, no additives. Looking for best deals right now, and looks like Walmart's the winner at $5.67 for a gallon of 10% (44c/oz). Haven't quite psyched myself up for bulk buying, but I might need to dive in and buy a 5 gallon refillable jug.

 

[Bperry]

Nice, good to know. So you'd let people swim with FC up to 20, or you just wouldn't be worried they'd die if they fell in, lol?
I'm only using regular bleach, no additives. Looking for best deals right now, and looks like Walmart's the winner at $5.67 for a gallon of 10% (44c/oz). Haven't quite psyched myself up for bulk buying, but I might need to dive in and buy a 5 gallon refillable jug.

You really need a good test kit to be sure. Look through the CYA/FC article on TFP.

I’ve swam in my pool when the FC was over 10ppm. The amount of active chlorine (because of CYA) in the water is less than tap water. But don’t go drinking it cause I don’t know how healthy CYA is to drink.

See the article below for details.

The Free Chlorine and Cyanuric Acid Relationship

Managing your cyanuric acid and Free Chlorine levels is key to stabilizing your pool. Learn how these two items affect each other.

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[JJ_Tex]

Nice, good to know. So you'd let people swim with FC up to 20, or you just wouldn't be worried they'd die if they fell in, lol?

My avatar is my recent test result. I don't think it is 20, but certainly "off the charts" if you asked a pool store. I swam last night and hoping the kids get in after school today.

 

[wdsheffer]

I picked up LC and MA on the way home (Lowe’s was not the place for LC! Had to move on to Walmart.) I went ahead and did another full battery of tests.

Added some MA, and 1/2 jug of 7.5% bleach. 30 minutes later, FC was up to 8 and pH was down to 7.8. Added a full jug of 7.5%, but didn’t get another good FC test. Hurried and got sloppy trying to go in for dinner. Trichlor pucks are about half used up. Kids are having friends in the pool tomorrow. After that I’ll start hitting it with the 10% LC from Walmart and see if I can keep FC around 15-20ppm for a while. When the trichlor is gone, I’ll do the OCLT.

 

[wdsheffer]

Alright, good news a week later. Not planning to SLAM. I've spent the last week keeping the FC elevated, but not trying to peg it at 20ppm. I've been brushing grout lines and ports, finding out how nasty the autofill well can get, generally trying to de-scunge things, and figuring out what all the different plumbing does. I finally figured out how to turn on the aerators and lastly the spa fountain. Monday night I did the overnight test, losing 2ppm, but didn't trust it since I had just flushed the spa fountain line that day. Yesterday I did a full battery of tests, then OCLT. CC was 0 and overnight I only lost 0.5ppm FC. Woohoo!

I figure I'll probably maintain FC for a while at 6-8ppm, then might settle down a little lower later when I have a more solid routine. In the meantime, I'll have to sort out CH and pH.

I really appreciate this website and everyone’s help. I’ve got a long way to go to get the whole pool sorted out, but I’m getting there.

 

[Mdragger88]

I think maybe you have overcome your issues by simply having adequate fc in the water finally vs just barely keeping algae at bay.
Keep fc on the high side of target to ensure you don’t play kissy face with minimum ever.

There’s no downsides to having a little extra fc as it is safe for swimmers, equipment, & surfaces up to slam level for your cya but there are many downsides to having too little fc like person to per transmission of pathogens, rashes, ear infections etc. & of course algae.

Instead of the previous owner’s advice-
Anytime something looks/seems off whip out your kit & do an
Overnight Chlorine Loss Test to know where you really stand.
About the liquid chlorine- get the big container (if it’s cheaper & fresher of course) and use a pitcher as you mentioned. They also sell little pumps for bigger containers as well as spouts. The supplier may have these. That way you can also just refill your empty bleach bottles.
I buy mine in 2.5 gallon containers (carboys) & use a $1 gallon pitcher from walmart. Replace your pitcher every season as the chlorine & uv take a toll on them & inspect it regularly for signs of deterioration- you don’t want any needless accidents!
Be sure to store your liquid chlorine in a cooler dark place & away from other forms of chlorine or acid.
I have a deck so mine is stored under there year round. It seems to hold up well.

If the jug lugging gets to be a pain you should consider installing a salt water chlorine generator to feed your pool for you. Make your own chlorine in your backyard!
You’d want a system rated for at least 2x’s your pool’s volume- but the bigger the better in sunny texas with your long seasons. Something to think about. The larger the pool the quicker the roi on a swcg is.

Your numbers look good!
As you lower your ph with acid the ta will also lower. As the ta falls so does the rate at which ph rises.
most people find that when ta gets nearer 60 the frequency of ph rise is greatly reduced.
You can make a more concerted effort to lower ta if you wish or just carry on as you are now. If your fill water has a high ta & you have to replace alot of water due to evaporation it may be worth it for you to actively work on lowering ta. Here’s how to do that safely

Lower Total Alkalinity

A lower Total Alkalinity level can help a pool owner stabalize their pH increase. We'll explain how to lower TA with a little help from muriatic acid.

www.google.com

 

[wdsheffer]

If the jug lugging gets to be a pain you should consider installing a salt water chlorine generator to feed your pool for you. Make your own chlorine in your backyard!
You’d want a system rated for at least 2x’s your pool’s volume- but the bigger the better in sunny texas with your long seasons. Something to think about. The larger the pool the quicker the roi on a swcg is.

A SWCG is definitely on my radar for when funds allow. I didn't realize how small and unobtrusive they were till I saw a picture of one installed. Prior to that I had an image of the one my dad had 30 years ago. It was mounted on the equipment pad, not as big as a heater, but not too much smaller. He would feed it salt, and it would generate chlorine but also NaOH as a byproduct, which he'd have to drain off periodically. It gave him fits trying to figure out what to do with a gallon jug of lye every time he emptied it, so he had it removed and replaced with a tablet feeder. (I always thought he could have looked at the lye as free Drano and pour it down all the sinks to keep them clear.)

I'm starting to get a mental picture of how my system might be updated: SWCG, valve actuators, central control system. Vision first, execution later...

 

[Mdragger88]

A SWCG is definitely on my radar for when funds allow. I didn't realize how small and unobtrusive they were till I saw a picture of one installed. Prior to that I had an image of the one my dad had 30 years ago. It was mounted on the equipment pad, not as big as a heater, but not too much smaller. He would feed it salt, and it would generate chlorine but also NaOH as a byproduct, which he'd have to drain off periodically. It gave him fits trying to figure out what to do with a gallon jug of lye every time he emptied it, so he had it removed and replaced with a tablet feeder. (I always thought he could have looked at the lye as free Drano and pour it down all the sinks to keep them clear.)

I'm starting to get a mental picture of how my system might be updated: SWCG, valve actuators, central control system. Vision first, execution later...

You already have alot of pentair stuff so adding pentair automation & an ic40 (or larger if you can swing it) would probably make the most sense if your other equipment is in good condition so everything seamlessly integrates.
Bookmark this for your future research

Pentair Automation Systems - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

When the time comes post up what you’re wanting to do/shopping for & some of our knowledgeable pentair guru’s will get you down the right path.