Is downsizing from 3hp variable to 1.85hp variable a valid suggestion if we want to try to solve the air bubble issue?

[cflannagan]

Our 3 hp variable pump has finally died on us. We knew the time was coming since it was making unusual noises and pool service guys working on something else unrelated to pump told us they think our pump will die eventually, but is fine for now and functional. However, days are numbered.

Historically, we have had issues with air bubbles coming out of the jets (both pool and raised spa). It is possible the issue is coming from our Hayward 1750 cartridge filter which currently won’t secure close all the way (due to threading issue). We’ve never been able to figure out how to stop the air bubbles from coming out.

The pool service company we hired in the past to diagnose something unrelated told us we probably want to downsize the pump from 3hp variable to 1.85hp variable to help (or solve) the air bubble issue - is that a valid suggestion? Maybe it makes sense… too much HP is trying to pull (pump) water from pool, that the pool equipment system cannot keep up, so it ends up sucking air in. We do see the skimmer barely show any water in it from time to time when pump is pulling water hard, but then pump lets up for a bit, the water level in skimmer returns to normal. Is this indicative that 3 hp might be too much for our pool?

Want to check in with the resident experts on this forum before we make a purchasing decision (new pump replacement).

Description of the pool can be found in my post signature, it still holds true today. By the way, we did used to have 1.5hp pump (not variable) when we originally bought this house, before we replaced that with 3 hp variable pump a long time ago when the 1.5 died on us. Back when we had 1.5 hp, we never had air bubble coming out of jet issue. When we first started to use 3hp, we didn't have air bubble issue either, but few years later we started to have it.

 

[proavia]

Is your pool water level half way up the skimmer opening?
Usually, if the skimmer has barely any water in it, it can cause air to be pulled in at the skimmer.

A 3 hp pump will pump the same amount of water as a 1.85hp pump - but at a lower RPM. This lower RPM will usually result in lower electrical usage.

What RPM are you running the pump at?

 

[cflannagan]

For a while we've been unable to screw our cartridge filter closed all the way. I think this might be one of those things that might be contributing to our air in equipment problem (some more background here Is downsizing from 3hp variable to 1.85hp variable a valid suggestion if we want to try to solve the air bubble issue?)

I searched for this type of issue and came across this: Hayward C1200 Stripped Locking Knob/Rod Fix leading me to wonder if I might have a similar issue: threading issue.

(Note: of course pool equipment is powered down, pump is dead anyway) When I took out the rod (planning to take it to Home Depot to figure out the correct size for thread repair kit), I cannot seem to get the cartridge filter closed all the way without rod either. Is this likely resolved with some type of proper lubricant around the area where top and bottom part of cartridge filter connect together? I'm curious how much work/force is normal when I try to close cartridge filter together, without a rod. Trying to figure out where the underlying issue might be.. whether it's threading issue with rod, or needing lubricant to connect both top/bottom parts more easily, or even both.

The model of cartridge filter we have is in my post signature (Hayward 17502)

 

[cflannagan]

Is your pool water level half way up the skimmer opening?
Usually, if the skimmer has barely any water in it, it can cause air to be pulled in at the skimmer.

Yes, water level is _at least_ more than halfway up the skimmer opening. We are good with filling up our pool with new water as needed if the water level falls a bit low. It's just that it looks like pump works pretty hard, then it lets up, water level returns to normal, no longer sucking in air, etc.

A 3 hp pump will pump the same amount of water as a 1.85hp pump - but at a lower RPM. This lower RPM will usually result in lower electrical usage.

What RPM are you running the pump at?

around 2,200 pm. Want to note that we've played a lot with variousrpm settings (lower than 2200), to no avail.

 

[cflannagan]

To the mod who combined my two posts, how is a dead pump and a potential threading issue with cartridge filter related? They're two distinct issues that I need to get addressed. I also don't know if the air problem is caused by cartrdige fitler, or if it's caused by the pump, or both. But okay. I hope I can get replies on both of those issues at least.

 

[mknauss]

Does the air bubbles show in the pump basket lid?
When was the last time the pump basket lid was properly lubricated using Pool Lube?
The filter is on the pressure side of the system. It will leak water when the pump is running, not draw in air. It can pull in air when the pump is off. You should be able to hear it when the pump is turned off.

That level of rpm for your VS pump is pretty high flow rate. Why do you need that high of flow rate?

A lower hp VS pump will have to run at a higher rpm and will be noisier and use more electricity to pump the same flow rate.

 

[proavia]

For a while we've been unable to screw our cartridge filter closed all the way. I think this might be one of those things that might be contributing to our air in equipment problem (some more background here Is downsizing from 3hp variable to 1.85hp variable a valid suggestion if we want to try to solve the air bubble issue?)

I searched for this type of issue and came across this: Hayward C1200 Stripped Locking Knob/Rod Fix leading me to wonder if I might have a similar issue: threading issue.

(Note: of course pool equipment is powered down, pump is dead anyway) When I took out the rod (planning to take it to Home Depot to figure out the correct size for thread repair kit), I cannot seem to get the cartridge filter closed all the way without rod either. Is this likely resolved with some type of proper lubricant around the area where top and bottom part of cartridge filter connect together? I'm curious how much work/force is normal when I try to close cartridge filter together, without a rod. Trying to figure out where the underlying issue might be.. whether it's threading issue with rod, or needing lubricant to connect both top/bottom parts more easily, or even both.

The model of cartridge filter we have is in my post signature (Hayward 17502)

No sure of the correct fix. Someone should be along shortly to advise.

How often are you needing to clean that filter?
Are you cleaning when the pressure rises 25% above clean pressure?

But, if you wind up replacing that filter, get one at least 2-3 times the size.
For some reason, Florida PBs tend to install the dinkiest filter they can find. A 175 square foot cartridge filter on a 18,000 gallon pool is way undersized - even for a pool in a cage.

 

[cflannagan]

Does the air bubbles show in the pump basket lid?

More than bubbles. There's like air space.

When was the last time the pump basket lid was properly lubricated using Pool Lube?

TBH I'm not sure. I'm wondering if the problem is mostly coming from the cartridge filter that I've not been able to get closed properly

The filter is on the pressure side of the system. It will leak water when the pump is running, not draw in air. It can pull in air when the pump is off. You should be able to hear it when the pump is turned off.

Yeah, water has been leaking from sides of cartridge filter, Cannot get filter closed even when screwing tightly/hard. I'm hoping I can do a thread repair, or try applying lubricant to the area where top and bottom parts of cartridge filter connect together. I'm curious though from others how hard or how much force it should take to get cartridge filter closed without a rod (I have rod removed), and was surprised I cannot get cartridge filter closed either without rod in there, I though it was rod/threading causing the issue.

That level of rpm for your VS pump is pretty high flow rate. Why do you need that high of flow rate?

Good question. We have had pool service guys come here for the air bubble issue. I think they ultimately left it at that setting, or it might have been me. We have had the air issue for years, nothing rpm-wise (lower, high) seem to solve the issue, and over time I kind of forgot the original reasoning for 2,200 pm. Might have been "well, looks like we have less bubbles coming out on this setting" decision.

A lower hp VS pump will have to run at a higher rpm and will be noisier and use more electricity to pump the same flow rate.

Yeah. So I think you're saying 3hp being too high is not a thing, it's not what could be causing the air problem.

 

[mknauss]

Yeah. So I think you're saying 3hp being too high is not a thing, it's not what could be causing the air problem.

Correct.

Let's ask @Texas Splash about the filter rod. I think he has that filter.

You need to inspect, clean, and lubricate the pump basket lid. See Pool Lube - Further Reading

The filter should not leak. Your pool guy is not very good.

 

[cflannagan]

No sure of the correct fix. Someone should be along shortly to advise.

How often are you needing to clean that filter?
Are you cleaning when the pressure rises 25% above clean pressure?

Might be bad practice on my part, but we usually replace with brand new filter upon opening pool for swim season ("fresh start" mentality).
During swim season, I would clean filter every maybe 2 or 3 months. In middle of swim season, we would then replace with brand new filter. And that filter will be there past the end of swim season, up to beginning of new swim season. So like 2 new filters every year.

But, if you wind up replacing that filter, get one at least 2-3 times the size.
For some reason, Florida PBs tend to install the dinkiest filter they can find. A 175 square foot cartridge filter on a 18,000 gallon pool is way undersized - even for a pool in a cage.

Interesting - is there a recommended (specific) size for 18,000 gallon pool?

 

[mknauss]

So like 2 new filters every year.

Yikes. Filter cartridges should last at least 5 years. My last set I replaced at 7 years.

 

[cflannagan]

The filter should not leak. Your pool guy is not very good.

Unfortunately, we realized that kind of too late. I hired the company to fix air bubble once for all. What he ended up doing: He adjusted our valves so that water is no longer falling over from our raised spa, and then opened up the spa drain to get rid of the air bubble. Which yes, we know of that setting, that's not a real long term solution.

I told the pool service guy "Um doesn't that mean the raised spa water level will fall overnight unless I close the spa drain at end of pool pump session everyday?" . He said "yeah".

I was charged for service call. SMH.

 

[mknauss]

He adjusted our valves so that water is no longer falling over from our raised spa, and then opened up the spa drain to get rid of the air bubble.

That implies some issues with your valves. Post a picture of the entire equipment pad.

 

[cflannagan]

Yikes. Filter cartridges should last at least 5 years. My last set I replaced at 7 years.

!!!!! Wow. I've been doing it wrong :-D

How often do you need to clean filter, curious? We find our filters dirty, we hose it down (for 10-15 mins), but the filter still look discolored and if I separate the filter "planes" (to look inside), there' s still debris. Do you keep cleaning or do you put it back in there, at least as long as we clean most of the initial (visible) debris off?

 

[proavia]

Going thru 2 filter cartridges a year is excessive. A cartridge should last 5 years or longer if properly cared for.

It is suggested to get the largest filter you can afford.
For a cartridge filter, something like the Pentair CCP 420 would work. Hayward and other offer similar sized cartridge filters. You will need to check filter dimensions and see if you have enough space on your pad to accommodate.

 

[mknauss]

How often do you need to clean filter, curious?

I clean mine once a year. My pressure never moves. You must clean them when your filter pressure rises by 25% at the same rpm.
I use a device called Filter Flosser. It helps get between the pleats.
The media does not go back to white. That is likely minor iron staining. No big deal.

 

[cflannagan]

That implies some issues with your valves. Post a picture of the entire equipment pad.

I've posted the photo before - I looked at one, there's no change. Here: IMG_1077 2.png

 

[proavia]

!!!!! Wow. I've been doing it wrong :-D

How often do you need to clean filter, curious? We find our filters dirty, we hose it down (for 10-15 mins), but the filter still look discolored and if I separate the filter "planes" (to look inside), there' s still debris. Do you keep cleaning or do you put it back in there, at least as long as we clean most of the initial (visible) debris off?

Filter should be cleaned when pressure rises 25% above clean pressure.
Consider something like the Filter Flosser for cleaning. You need to clean to remove all the debris and dirt. Don't worry too much about discoloration - but the debris and dirt need to be removed.

 

[mknauss]

You have a SWCG. That creates hydrogen gas. You will see bubbles from the returns when it is generating.

 

[cflannagan]

You have a SWCG. That creates hydrogen gas. You will see bubbles from the returns when it is generating.

Oh, so that's normal?

My apologies, I realized my post signature doesn't mention SWCG anywhere - will work on updating that. (nvm, I see mention of "salt", I thought it wasn't there initially). Yeah, we used to be chlorine-based, before switching over to SWCG. Around the same time, that's when we switched from (dying) 1.5 hp (non-variable) pump, to a 3 hp variable. And that's when we started to notice the air bubbles issue. I guess the question is, how much of air bubbling is normal and attributed to SWCG, how much is not normal, attributed to issues with my pool equipment.

Based on discussion so far, I'm sticking with 3hp variable.

Leaving us with potential lube and/or threading issue (pool basket and cartridge filter). Hoping the cartridge filter I have right now is at least salvagable and I don't have to spring for a brand new one (if I do, I'll be sure to get 2-3 times bigger as per recommendation here)