Intelliph and Intellicenter

[Dirk]

Looks good.

 

[tradewinds]

Looks good.

I wasn't sure since the instructions only mention distance before the SWG, not whether horizontal or vertical.

 

[Dirk]

There's a little white ball inside the injector that acts as a backflow preventer, keeping the water from the plumbing from traveling back up to the IpH pump. Did you have one of those snorkel sets as a kid with a ping pong ball in the snorkel that would seal off the snorkel when you went under water, to keep you from sucking in the pool? It works a little like that, only not by gravity, but by the water pressure. So the injector should work fine in any orientation.

That said, while the IpH installation instructions don't specifically say to orient it vertically, they do show a picture of one mounted vertically. So I mounted mine vertically. You have room to do the same, if you want to play it safe.

 

[Dirk]

I would probably put it at #2 position. That is a bit better protected than #1, and keeps the run of pipe into the IC unencumbered.

The IC installation instructions call for a straight run of pipe leading into the IC. 12-18" I think it reads. There is some debate here about whether that is strictly necessary or not. I'm in the camp that thinks it is, plus Pentair specifically calls that out in the instructions. That run ensures minimal water turbulence hitting the IC's flow switch, which conceivably could mean the IC will be satisfied with a lower flow rate (which theoretically would save on energy costs).

Point being, the IpH injector mounted in that "pre-IC" run would cause little turbulence, but not none. So why not play it safe and put it somewhere else? Either where you originally indicated, or down on that lower pipe (#2).

Another faction here thinks it should be at position #3, counter to the Pentair instructions. They site the acid can cause wear on the IC's delicate plate coatings, so after the IC is better. That certainly makes sense. But mine was installed before my IC, and I don't have any pressing reason to move it now (plus, that location jives with Pentair's IpH instructions).

My somewhat-educated guess is that it'll work just fine in any of the four locations.

 

[tradewinds]

Thanks @Dirk as always. I will go with #2. I have also read that those mounting before the IC don't really need to do the periodic acid wash. I'll go with #2 for the reason of keeping at least the 12" and the other reasons you mentioned and before the IC also because Pentair suggest doing that.

With that said, #3 is attractive as the iPH will be install on a frash pad right behind that location behind the filter tank.

 

[tradewinds]

@Dirk - I thought you had mentioned in the past about getting a longer tube to run far away from metals around the house. Couldn't find the reference or if there was a link.
Anyway, what do you think about this one at less than half the cost of the Pentair one?

1/4'' Diameter - 100' UV Black Chemical Tubing

1/4' Diameter - 100' UV Black Chemical Tubing. Buy directly online and save today. In stock and ready to ship.

www.chemworld.com

Pentair:

Chem Kit Tube 100 Ft With Labels

www.poolzoom.com

 

[Dirk]

I probably wrote to route the tube as far away from metal as possible, not getting a longer tube. I wouldn't try 100', though technically it should work. You'd run into resistance with a really long tube that was full of water (or had collected condensed acid fumes). I would have also mentioned that the trick is to have the tube sloping down from the tank, so that it drains properly and doesn't collect moisture. Mine is only about 10' long. Remember, it's not just one way. The vent port allows pressure out and air in. The tank is airtight, so as the acid is used, or as the ambient air temperature fluctuates, there has to be a path to allow air to move in both directions. Which is why you wouldn't want it to be too long if that meant not being able to keep it free of blockages.

You should be diluting the acid in the tank, down to about 14-15%. So that's not all that corrosive, as long as the end of the tube is not in close proximity to metal. All you're trying to prevent is acid fumes collecting around your pool equipment or fence hardware. If there is a regular breeze, that too goes a long way to preventing corrosion.

The tube you found looks fine. They don't say what type of chemicals it will withstand, but it's probably adequate. And the fact that it is 1/2 of what Pentair charges would not desuade me. That's par for the course for the Pentair brand. There are some things I won't rely on third-party clones for, but tubing is tubing.

100' is a lot, but all the IpH tubing is supposed to get swapped out periodically, so you'll be able to use the spool for all the tubes. It'll probably last you a lifetime.

 

[tradewinds]

You should be diluting the acid in the tank, down to about 14-15%.

OK, so buy and keep for the change outs? Does the breather part needs changing out since I'll need to run it under a walkway? I assume then I should run it through some PVC piping/conduit?

The 14-15% - if I recall you method is a empty bottle fill with water to same level as a new MA bottle and you pour both in at the same time. Does this achieve this percentage?

Thanks.

 

[Dirk]

OK, so buy and keep for the change outs?

Yep.

Does the breather part needs changing out since I'll need to run it under a walkway? I assume then I should run it through some PVC piping/conduit?

I couldn't say. Mine is going on 5 years and it's fine. I'd be concerned about running it underground. Your PVC idea is good, but if the tube is going to have a low spot, then it could collect condensation or water entering from the exit end. If that tube is full of liquid, for the few feet it dips below the sidewalk, it might still provide the pressure relief necessary, but it might also allow that liquid to get drawn into the tank as the tank empties. I don't actually know if that would happen, but the physics back up that possibility.

Is there no other path? The exit end of the tube should be lower than the vent port, and there should be a straight line of slope between the two. Ideally.

Either way, the exit end of the tube should point down, so that rain or irrigation water can't get into it.

The 14-15% - if I recall you method is a empty bottle fill with water to same level as a new MA bottle and you pour both in at the same time. Does this achieve this percentage?

Thanks.

That's how I mix mine up, 1:1, but I don't pour them in at the same time anymore. I mark the level of acid in a gallon jug of 31% acid with a Sharpie, then I pour that jug into the tank. I refill the jug to the Sharpie line with soft water, and then pour that in. I don't hold the jugs, I place them into the IpH, as the design intended. I get less fumes in my face doing it that way.

Then I stick in a stir rod and mix it in the tank. Our chemical expert here claims that last step is unnecessary, as Muriatic and water have a good "mixability factor" (I can't remember the exact term), and mix virtually instantly on contact. But I stir it anyway because before he taught me that I had already made my nifty IntellipH mixing rod, so I use that on a cordless drill. It slips right through the grid in the top of the IpH.


It's plexiglass, epoxy and fiberglass, and has so far proved to be acid-resistant.

 

[tradewinds]

Yep.


I couldn't say. Mine is going on 5 years and it's fine. I'd be concerned about running it underground. Your PVC idea is good, but if the tube is going to have a low spot, then it could collect condensation or water entering from the exit end. If that tube is full of liquid, for the few feet it dips below the sidewalk, it might still provide the pressure relief necessary, but it might also allow that liquid to get drawn into the tank as the tank empties. I don't actually know if that would happen, but the physics back up that possibility.

Is there no other path? The exit end of the tube should be lower than the vent port, and there should be a straight line of slope between the two. Ideally.

Either way, the exit end of the tube should point down, so that rain or irrigation water can't get into it.


That's how I mix mine up, 1:1, but I don't pour them in at the same time anymore. I mark the level of acid in a gallon jug of 31% acid with a Sharpie, then I pour that jug into the tank. I refill the jug to the Sharpie line with soft water, and then pour that in. I don't hold the jugs, I place them into the IpH, as the design intended. I get less fumes in my face doing it that way.

Then I stick in a stir rod and mix it in the tank. Our chemical expert here claims that last step is unnecessary, as Muriatic and water have a good "mixability factor" (I can't remember the exact term), and mix virtually instantly on contact. But I stir it anyway because before he taught me that I had already made my nifty IntellipH mixing rod, so I use that on a cordless drill. It slips right through the grid in the top of the IpH.

View attachment 572325
It's plexiglass, epoxy and fiberglass, and has so far proved to be acid-resistant.

Do you have a photo/illustration of how you ran the breather tube to your fence? I do plan to run it down an incline but it seems it needs some special at the far end to ensure it does not get cover/clogged up.

That is Interesting stirrer you assembled there. Have you come across a common available alternative since making that?

 

[Dirk]

That is Interesting stirrer you assembled there. Have you come across a common available alternative since making that?

No. There are lots of stirrers available, just not one that will fit through the grid of an IntellipH. Which is why I fabricated it. I used a fiberglass rod I found at Lowe's (in their signage department, I think). Really that's all you'd need. Just an acid-proof rod to swish it around some. Even that is overkill according to our chemistry expert.

Do you have a photo/illustration of how you ran the breather tube to your fence? I do plan to run it down an incline but it seems it needs some special at the far end to ensure it does not get cover/clogged up.

I would recommend more of a slope than what I have here. I may redo mine. I found a stretch of it that had sagged some since first installing it. I guess the sun did that. So plan ahead for that. The more the slope, the better.

Here there is hardly any, but some. You really only need 1/4" of slope per 12" of tubing, which I have, but it doesn't leave any margin of error.



This vinyl fence separates my pad from the end of the tube, which works well. The fence has some metal hinges not too far away, but so far they are not getting corroded.



Here's the down-turn at the end of the tube I was describing. I did that with a lighter and a pair of pliers. Easy. Yes, I used metal ties, but they are stainless steel and disposable. I find nylon zip ties don't hold up to UV for very long. If these ever corrode, it'll be many, many years before they fail.

 

[Dirk]

In the first pic above, note the screw and washer holding the IntellipH base to the pad. They've got some rust on them, but I think that's because the screw is just plain steel. Now look at the pipe on the wall, and its clamp and the screw holding the clamp in place. No corrosion. Those are my "canaries in a mine." I annually check on those to see if the IpH is causing any corrosion on the pad. I actually take a series of pics of various chunks of metal on my pad, and file them away. Each year I take a new set and compare them to the previous years' sets. If there is any corrosion going on, it's very hard to see. So the IpH venting is working, at least working well enough.

 

[Jetjohn6]

That's because running an IntellipH (IpH) that way is not stock, not what Pentair intended.

That tank either works with IntelliChem, or the IntellipH controller. And the latter only works when an IntelliChlor (IC) is present. IC and IpH are companions, and the IpH relies on components and data that are part of IntelliChlor. The IpH and its controller is not a stand-alone solution. That's the official use as designed by Pentair.

Now that said, a few of us run our IntellipHs without the IpH controller, either with EasyTouch or IntelliCenter. We do so by bypassing the controller, and running DC voltage directly to the tank's pump, and controlling the scheduling using one of the relays of the pool automation controller.

If you'd like to know more about how that's done, just holler. But yes, it's possible.

Dirk, Have you posted anywhere how you're controlling the intellipH pump without controller through intellicenter?

 

[Dirk]

Dirk, Have you posted anywhere how you're controlling the intellipH pump without controller through intellicenter?

(OK, you all saw it. He asked first, I didn't shove it down his throat!!!)

Why, yes, as a matter of fact!! One of my favorite threads! (Note, I have an EasyTouch, but all the principles would apply to IntelliCenter.)

Hacking IntellipH to work in cold water

As Pentair IntellipH (IpH) automatic acid dosing system owners know, the IpH depends on a Pentair IntellliChlor (IC) saltwater chlorine generator. The IpH uses the IC's power supply, and monitors its flow switch, so that it won't dispense acid if the IC is reporting low flow. Unfortunately, it...

www.troublefreepool.com

Note that there are simpler ways to get the IpH pump to run for a few minutes, but I took it to the next level, for reasons I explain in the thread.

 

[Jetjohn6]

(OK, you all saw it. He asked first, I didn't shove it down his throat!!!)

Why, yes, as a matter of fact!! One of my favorite threads! (Note, I have an EasyTouch, but all the principles would apply to IntelliCenter.)

Hacking IntellipH to work in cold water

As Pentair IntellipH (IpH) automatic acid dosing system owners know, the IpH depends on a Pentair IntellliChlor (IC) saltwater chlorine generator. The IpH uses the IC's power supply, and monitors its flow switch, so that it won't dispense acid if the IC is reporting low flow. Unfortunately, it...

www.troublefreepool.com

Note that there are simpler ways to get the IpH pump to run for a few minutes, but I took it to the next level, for reasons I explain in the thread.

Thanks for the link and details. I'm liking the idea of scheduling the pump with the intellicenter schedule and not buying the intelliPH controller. What I have not sorted out is how to keep the pump from dispensing acid while the IC60 is generating chlorine. It looks like your application is for winter months when the SWCG is inactive.

 

[Dirk]

Thanks for the link and details. I'm liking the idea of scheduling the pump with the intellicenter schedule and not buying the intelliPH controller. What I have not sorted out is how to keep the pump from dispensing acid while the IC60 is generating chlorine. It looks like your application is for winter months when the SWCG is inactive.

That's correct. I didn't have to solve for that, and why I still want to use my IpH controller during the rest of the seasons.

The work-around is to use scheduling. The EasyTouch only allows eight schedules, and I really like the way the IpH dispenses every hour. I contend (pretend?) that it makes for a more stable pH, because it's being corrected hourly, instead of daily, or weekly like some people do. I digress. I don't have the scheduling slots to simulate that, so in the winter I only dispense once a day. Actually, only a few times a week. The pH just doesn't fluctuate as much in the winter, so I'm not really missing the hourly dispensing in that season.

WIth the IntelliCenter, maybe you have more options.

The simplest would be to schedule the acid to dispense once a day, right when the pump starts up (or maybe a minute after is better). The IntelliChlor takes about five minutes to run through its startup process, so it wouldn't be dispensing chlorine during that brief period.

The more complicated way, if I'm assuming correctly that you don't have a spa:

Set up the IntelliCenter like you have a spa. Then go into the IntelliChlor settings and set the IntelliChlor output for "Pool" to the desired output, then set the "Spa" output to zero.

Then schedule the "Spa" to come on as many times a day as you like (or as many as the IntelliCenter supports). Run the "Spa" for, I dunno, maybe 10 minutes at a time. Then schedule the IpH pump to dispense within that 10 minutes. You'll likely only need a minute or two, depending on how much acid you need.

This MO will closely simulate what the IpH controller is actually doing. When your system starts up, the IntelliChlor will too, and happily dispense its chlorine. Then, when the "Spa" turns on, the IntelliCenter will set the IntelliChlor to zero output, and the IpH pump will dispense (this is exactly what the IpH controller does). A few minutes later, well after the IpH pump is done, the IntelliCenter will switch back to "Pool" mode, the IntelliChlor will be set back to the normal output, and BoB's-Yer-Uncle. Because you don't actually have a spa, the pool and the plumbing won't know the difference. No actuator valves will turn during "Spa" mode, so the pump will just keep running water through the filter and the returns as it always does.

You'll have to deal with the water feature somehow. You wouldn't want acid flying through the air or running down a water fall. It'll be greatly diluted, of course, but just not a good idea. So you'd have to schedule the dispensing around when you want to use the water feature. You could even wire the IpH pump such that the pump couldn't dispense while the water feature was on, as a safeguard.

If you like the idea of dispensing more often, to maintain your pH nice and even, and find that the one-minute minimum pumping the IntelliCenter allows is putting too much acid into your pool, you'd address that by either reducing the dispensing schedule, or diluting the acid in the IpH tank even more, until you find the right combo. Diluting acid in the tank will mean you'll have to fill it more often, but on the plus side, the more dilute the mixture the less wear-and-tear the acid will do on all the components (the IpH pump, the tubing, the injector, etc).

And there's another important safeguard to diluting the acid. If everything works as it should then great, but should the IntelliCenter go kafloey, or someone somehow triggers the acid pumping circuit, it's possible the pump could empty the entire contents of the tank into the pool all in one shot. The less acid in the tank, the less dangerous this would be. I never have more than a gallon of 31% in my tank (two gallons after dilution). If my system pumped it out somehow, that means the most my pool would get is a gallon of acid. Which will tank my pH for a time, but not cause any real harm to pool or people. And my system only runs sans-controller in the winter, when no one is in the pool anyway. During swim season, the IpH controller is safeguarding the total amount dispensed at any one time. Just something to think through and decide for yourself how "safe" you want to make your system.

So there's a few ways to skin this cat.

You might have noted that I also recreated the flow switch safeguard in my setup, when the IntelliChlor is offline. I would recommend you do the same. I can help you with the wiring circuitry if you need. What you don't want is the IntelliCenter accidentally dispensing a glob of acid into your plumbing when the pump is not running. The only way to do that reliably is with a physical flow switch. Wiring and scheduling are the primary safeguards, but personally, I wouldn't trust those alone (and don't, as per my wiring hack).

Let me know if I can help...